Why is Janeway worse than Sisko when it comes to ...
- Thread starter DarthTom
- Start date
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
exodus said:
Most people don't know shit.They've never spent a day on the set learning what it takes to write & produce a TV show. They believe the internet & being an arm chair warrior gives them more knowledge of those like B&B that have a degree and actual time spent in the field.
They still believe B&B ran Trek as if they never had to answer to Paramount, as if B&B have no bosses but themselves. B&B paid their dues and earned the right to write & produce Trek, regardless of what people think of Voy.. They also don't bitch about the fans the way ungratfull fans bitch about them.
WORD!!!
I don't agree about Sisko, honestly.
I don't wish to stereotype but I've noticed a great many African-American men around Avery/Sisko's age do act the way he does with emotions very close to the surface. Black people in general are very passonately expressive people. You're always aware of what they think and feel at any given time.
I honestly don't come across many Black people like Geordi but I see & interact with many like Sisko, myself included.
I've known a lot of black military people, and that is a whole other form of socialization on top of that in which you are raised.
In the confines of a starship or naval vessel [and I'm most familiar with subs] that intensity gets old really quickly, so you don't see it so much in real life, especially in the sub force. It's like Sisko - and his intensity is his strength as a character and an actor - can't tone it down.
In the confines of a starship or naval vessel [and I'm most familiar with subs] that intensity gets old really quickly, so you don't see it so much in real life, especially in the sub force. It's like Sisko - and his intensity is his strength as a character and an actor - can't tone it down.
Can you blame Sisko for being intense?
He was on a space station that was booby trapped & sabotaged.
His second in command had a major attitude problem.
His cheif of security won't follow the rules.
His only son is hanging out with a Ferengi.
His best friend is now a woman.
He was just coming to grips with is wife being dead.
There is a Cardassian spy & Ferengi black marketer living on the station and for political reasons you can't ask either one of them to leave.
He's got a Gul in the Cardassian military & former slave master constantly trying to befriend him, yet stabbing him in thre back at every turn.
An entire race of people believing you are the "Chosen One" & once again for political reasons, you must not denounce the idea.
Your one major discovery has become the gateway to hell because you've trespassed on terrory of one of the most threatening terrorist groups in the galaxy.
You think Shapeshifters maybe everywhere.
You got Maquis envading your ranks while also disrupting a peace treaty between the Federation & Cardassian that caused the Cardies to side with the Dominion.
Do I even have to mention Kia Winn?
All the while convincing yourself you really want to be here. Stangely enough, the least of Sisko's problems was his father being ill.
Sisko was under a hell of allot of stress, all the time. It's a wonder he even got a good nights sleep. That could be why he was always having visons.
He was on a space station that was booby trapped & sabotaged.
His second in command had a major attitude problem.
His cheif of security won't follow the rules.
His only son is hanging out with a Ferengi.
His best friend is now a woman.
He was just coming to grips with is wife being dead.
There is a Cardassian spy & Ferengi black marketer living on the station and for political reasons you can't ask either one of them to leave.
He's got a Gul in the Cardassian military & former slave master constantly trying to befriend him, yet stabbing him in thre back at every turn.
An entire race of people believing you are the "Chosen One" & once again for political reasons, you must not denounce the idea.
Your one major discovery has become the gateway to hell because you've trespassed on terrory of one of the most threatening terrorist groups in the galaxy.
You think Shapeshifters maybe everywhere.
You got Maquis envading your ranks while also disrupting a peace treaty between the Federation & Cardassian that caused the Cardies to side with the Dominion.
Do I even have to mention Kia Winn?
All the while convincing yourself you really want to be here. Stangely enough, the least of Sisko's problems was his father being ill.
Sisko was under a hell of allot of stress, all the time. It's a wonder he even got a good nights sleep. That could be why he was always having visons.
Listen, we all know Sisko was "stressed." He still coulda toned it down a bit.
Exactly.
Anyone that read the characters profile(even before the show started)knows that Sisko was supposed to act exactly the way he did. Anyone that's ever seen Avery Brooks' do other acting projects knows he doesn't act that way with every character he portrays.
I have to say I find it ironic, that people saying that Sisko needed to "tone it down" but Janeway lost & going up against the Borg showed no signs of stress at all. Her ship was basically almost destroyed a couple of times and her only reaction was to shake her head disapprovingly.
For me, the episode that defined my impression of Janeway was Prime Factors. It was Janeways version of In the Pale Moonlight, and she chose her morals over getting her crew home.
She didn't choose saving innocent lives of her crew.
She didn't choose crippling the borg (thus saving lives) over her crew.
She chose protecting her conscience over her crew.
That's when I made up my mind on Janeway.
She didn't choose saving innocent lives of her crew.
She didn't choose crippling the borg (thus saving lives) over her crew.
She chose protecting her conscience over her crew.
That's when I made up my mind on Janeway.
It has been my experience that DS9 fans are well aware of the shady things Sisko has done, and generally agree with him doing those things, and love him for those doing those things. :thumbsup: I suspect that in general DS9 fans are not "optimism Trek" fans, and hence respect that the Sisko did what he had to do to get the job done.
I suspect that Voyager fans have a different outlook on someone doing those kind of things because Voyager fans are generally the "optimism Trek" fans, the theme of which Voyager as a show otherwise promotes aside from Janeway's aforementioned exceptions.
I'd argue that it has more to do with the situations and the consistency. Will Janeway do what she thinks is morally right this week? Flip a coin, and you've got as much chance of guessing right as someone who analyzes her past actions!
There are also fewer times in which her morally questionable actions "had to be done." Exactly why did she have to go to those extreme lengths with the crewman in "Equinox, Part II?" She didn't.
Her character was rewritten to suit the plot, especially in later seasons.
There are also fewer times in which her morally questionable actions "had to be done." Exactly why did she have to go to those extreme lengths with the crewman in "Equinox, Part II?" She didn't.
Her character was rewritten to suit the plot, especially in later seasons.
I don't think she was always right. I mean, look at her in "Equinox", she totally flies off the hook and goes way overboard. Although she in most circumstances she ends up being right. I mean, she is the captain and the captains never wrong. Plus, how many times did you see Sisko do something wrong? Everything he did seemed to be justified by him being "the chosen one" prophet.
Sisko was not a Prophet.
I think much of this is because of the nature of the two shows. Niners tend to place Sisko in context and find his odds rather low because DS9 played it that way. things were pretty bad on the station from the third season on and the stories, characters, plot and ambiance IN TOTO reflected that. there was a strong sense of possible doom even when things were handled lightheartedly (in fact, this is in part the the answer to that "DS9 gritty?" thread running elsewhere). whereas, in VOY, where do we get the desperation except in certain episodes drawn to reflect that? most of the time, VOY was on its merry way. you couldn't really tell where they were, what they were doing, how bad things were from the ambiance, the characters, and the stories, much less Janeway. sure, the creators and maybe even the fans were fine with it. it's a codependent relationship there. whenever I bring this topic up with a died-in-the-wool VOY fan, the basic response is "yeah, but it didn't matter to me that much". well, then... if that's the case, in retrospect, it's no wonder that Janeway's characterization reflects that changeability, that "not-quite-with-it" attitude of the show... something that does not stand her in good stead in comparison to Sisko who was nothing if not in the moment in EVERY episode. he was shown as having suffered deep loss from day one, and was in the groove, so to speak, through the final "reckoning".
I think much of this is because of the nature of the two shows. Niners tend to place Sisko in context and find his odds rather low because DS9 played it that way. things were pretty bad on the station from the third season on and the stories, characters, plot and ambiance IN TOTO reflected that. there was a strong sense of possible doom even when things were handled lightheartedly (in fact, this is in part the the answer to that "DS9 gritty?" thread running elsewhere). whereas, in VOY, where do we get the desperation except in certain episodes drawn to reflect that? most of the time, VOY was on its merry way. you couldn't really tell where they were, what they were doing, how bad things were from the ambiance, the characters, and the stories, much less Janeway. sure, the creators and maybe even the fans were fine with it. it's a codependent relationship there. whenever I bring this topic up with a died-in-the-wool VOY fan, the basic response is "yeah, but it didn't matter to me that much". well, then... if that's the case, in retrospect, it's no wonder that Janeway's characterization reflects that changeability, that "not-quite-with-it" attitude of the show... something that does not stand her in good stead in comparison to Sisko who was nothing if not in the moment in EVERY episode. he was shown as having suffered deep loss from day one, and was in the groove, so to speak, through the final "reckoning".
