Why is Janeway worse than Sisko when it comes to ...

[DarthTom]

Seven Of Five said:
It annoys me because the writers used to do it, back in the first season and even part of the second. Janeway used to be a favourite character as she struggled with her ethics, but by 'Endgame...' Nah, enough's been said about 'Endgame' above.

To me, Janeway is like the George Patton, Admiral Halsey or Douglas MacArthur of commanders - she follows the rules when it suits her and doesn't when they do not.

There isn't anything 'not real life' about this approach at all in fact some of the greatest military minds of the 20th century acted like she did in Voyager.

 

[DarthTom]

CaptJimboJones said:
On the flip side, I think the Janeway character was much better acted. Brooks' ridiculous overacting would have been too much for a high school production of "Our Town," much less a television series, IMO. That's one of my biggest beefs with DS9 - his performance just really hurts the show for me.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Avery Brooks absurd overacting and that he never transitioned successfully from stage acting to in front of the camera can get annoying sometimes. My partner [at non Trek fan and a black man] often mocks Brooks style when I watch the show and thinks he's ridiculous as well.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

CaptJimboJones said:
On the flip side, I think the Janeway character was much better acted. Brooks' ridiculous overacting would have been too much for a high school production of "Our Town," much less a television series, IMO. That's one of my biggest beefs with DS9 - his performance just really hurts the show for me.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Avery Brooks absurd overacting and that he never transitioned successfully from stage acting to in front of the camera can get annoying sometimes. My partner [at non Trek fan and a black man] often mocks Brooks style when I watch the show and thinks he's ridiculous as well.

Ever notice how in Voy.'s first 3 seasons Mulgrew still acts like she on the set of Ryan's Hope?

BTW, if you were as stressed out at that job as Sisko was, you'd be acting the sameway. If Sisko wasn't a Starfleet officer, he probably would have picked up a phaser and started shooting up the place. Dealing with Bashir, Quark, Garak, Kira & Odo and their personality disorders was enough to drive anybody crazy.

 

[number6]

I think comparing Janeway's command style to Sisko's is like comparing bananas to spaghetti..

Both commanders had different sets of parameters to work with and different responsabilities within their command.

Sisko was not a starship commander, but a commander at a star base on the frontlines of a war, which requires a different set of rules to that of a starship commander with a crew of over a hundred trying to get home.

 

[indranee]

Avery Brooks' acting, overacting as it may be at times, brings the necessary intensity and passion to the special circumstances of DS9. I wouldn't want it any other way. his "overacting" was absolutely called for -- both in the character and the show.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
BTW, if you were as stressed out at that job as Sisko was, you'd be acting the sameway. If Sisko wasn't a Starfleet officer, he probably would have picked up a phaser and started shooting up the place. Dealing with Bashir, Quark, Garak, Kira & Odo and their personality disorders was enough to drive anybody crazy.

You give Brooks a break IMHO as a Trek fan and a DS9 fan and don't look at his acting objectively. Most people who are not fans of the series who are simply casual viewers of the show usually through someone else see a clown on TV and I for one accept their objectivity and assessment of his acting ability.

Don't get me wrong, DS9 is and was the best of Trek to date IMHO but it wasn't because of Brooks outstanding acting ability but rather great writing.

 

[JD]

Even though I am a huge Niner, I do have to admit that Brooks did overdue it from time to time. For example, love Far Beyond the Stars is one of my all time favorite Trek eps, but I do think he kinda went overboard with Benny's breakdown at the end. I understand that he was supposed to be losing it, but I really think there could have been a way to do it that wasn't so over the top.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:
BTW, if you were as stressed out at that job as Sisko was, you'd be acting the sameway. If Sisko wasn't a Starfleet officer, he probably would have picked up a phaser and started shooting up the place. Dealing with Bashir, Quark, Garak, Kira & Odo and their personality disorders was enough to drive anybody crazy.

You give Brooks a break IMHO as a Trek fan and a DS9 fan and don't look at his acting objectively. Most people who are not fans of the series who are simply casual viewers of the show usually through someone else see a clown on TV and I for one accept their objectivity and assessment of his acting ability.

Don't get me wrong, DS9 is and was the best of Trek to date IMHO but it wasn't because of Brooks outstanding acting ability but rather great writing.

Which Brooks had influence over.

If you don't find my opinion objective, how exactly would you think Picard would act toward having someone like Quark or Garak on his ship? Picard could barely contain his dislike for Q whenever he showed up nor could he even stomach Westley during the first two seasons, you think he wouldn't be on the verge like Sisko was dealing with those two dishonest people?

Sisko had twice the problems of any Starfleet captain we've ever seen so far. He had conflict between his own team, raising a child alone, a station that at first barely worked. External issues with the Cardassians and then the Dominion, not to mention the burden of being "the Chosen One". His problems didn't decline as the show went on, they only grew. They grew to the point were he became an accomplice to a murder because his problems backed him into a corner.

Sisko was one stressed out dude, is it any wonder why he was so emotional?

Besides, if people knew what good acting was they sure as hell wouldn't be looking for it in Star Trek.

 

[Deks]

Janeway was in a different situation than Sisko.
Most of the time she was upholding Federation/SF principles, but certain situations didn't exactly allow that if she wanted to get fast results.
True that in some situations, more thought on the matter would have been advisable, but timing was not in large quantities.

 

[exalted one]

Problem is not in Janeway herself and her questionable decisions. Problem is in writing, which makes her decisions always the good ones, even if they are essentially wrong. In reality, her rigid, often preposterous "starfleet ways" would be more trouble than it's worth, eventually condemning whole Voyager crew to certain death.

 

[greenmystik]

^^^ So are you saying that only Sisko can be stressed??? Janeway was 70,000 light years away from home!!! She was cut off from her family and friends and had no peers to go to for advice. Plus she had to deal with her decision to strand VGR in the delta quandrant and cutting off her crew from their family and friends and peers. And she had to deal with the Borg and all of the other DQ species. At least in DS9 you new who your enemis were during the war. Aside from the Borg everybody else they came into contact with was a first contact. They never new if they were friend or foe.

Now I'm not a big fan of Janeway or Sisko, but to say that Sisko had twice as many problems is just ridiculous. The "stress" aspect can go both ways.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
Besides, if people knew what good acting was they sure as hell wouldn't be looking for it in Star Trek.

To that we have no disagreement.

 

[exodus]

greenmystik said:
At least in DS9 you new who your enemis were during the war.

Ummm, Odo siding with the Dominion during their occupation of DS9, Eddington betraying Starfleet to join the Maquis, Changling Bashir almost destroying the solar system, Kasady Yates working with the Maquis behind Sisko's back, Damar going from enemy to ally, Quark helping Rom save the station.

Yep, who was on who's side was pretty cut and dry on DS9.

Janeway was a a ship that always worked & was able to ward off most enemies. How many people died under Sisko's watch compared to Janeway's? Almost impossable that nobody ever got assimilated during all those Borg encounters, not one. Hard to be really stressed on a luxury ship like Voyager.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

exodus said:

PKTrekGirl said:


I think the biggest beef with Endgame was that, after 7 years of running all over the dangerous DQ while defending and fiercely clinging to Federation principles...Janeway completely ABANDONS one of the most MASSIVE of those principles - the TPD - just to make a couple of dead friends happy. This was NOT consistent with her core beliefs, as illustrated numerous times throughout the series.

Then you completely missed the entire point of the episode. The ep. has little to do with making dead friends happy, they're dead how can they still be happy?

The point was Adm. Janeway was going back in time to prevent herself from become the person she became. To stop herself from becoming jaded to the point where she no longer believed in the principals and morals she once had. Janeway lost her most closest friends, Chakotay became her second best friend and basically killed himself, Tuvok her first best went insane and Seven died. These were the people she cared for the most. Without them or her former boyfriend, she had nothing to come home too.

The whole ep. Adm. Janeway keeps saying how she forgot what she used to be like, how things she used to do and enjoy used to be. In going back sooner, she not only saves her "family" but she saves her own soul as well.

The entire ep. is about her saving her soul.

EGADS! So it's even *worse* than what I originally thought.

Because what you are saying is that she broke the TPD for purely selfish reasons - to save HERSELF, and to make her own life happier.

I was *at least* giving her credit for being altruistic and doing it for others. But now you tell me that she changed the timeline for hundreds of millions of people in order to save HERSELF?? So that she would feel better around her own life later? So that she wouldn't have to deal with the simple reality of life: that we ALL lose people we love? She didn't like the way it came out, so she yelled 'do over!!!!'?????

ACK! Even worse that I originally thought.

If, indeed you are correct and I 'missed the point of the episode'.


I wish that *I* could call 'do over' on MY life, because at this point, I'm pretty cynical and jaded as well. I also lost my father in 1984, and I sure would like to have him back! And while we're at it, I wouldn't mind having my grandma around too. She died in 1985.

Fortunately for the rest of the universe, I don't have the ability to use Federation resources to go back in time and change history so that it comes out better for ME.

 

[exodus]

CindyLouWho said:

exodus said:

PKTrekGirl said:


I think the biggest beef with Endgame was that, after 7 years of running all over the dangerous DQ while defending and fiercely clinging to Federation principles...Janeway completely ABANDONS one of the most MASSIVE of those principles - the TPD - just to make a couple of dead friends happy. This was NOT consistent with her core beliefs, as illustrated numerous times throughout the series.

Then you completely missed the entire point of the episode. The ep. has little to do with making dead friends happy, they're dead how can they still be happy?

The point was Adm. Janeway was going back in time to prevent herself from become the person she became. To stop herself from becoming jaded to the point where she no longer believed in the principals and morals she once had. Janeway lost her most closest friends, Chakotay became her second best friend and basically killed himself, Tuvok her first best went insane and Seven died. These were the people she cared for the most. Without them or her former boyfriend, she had nothing to come home too.

The whole ep. Adm. Janeway keeps saying how she forgot what she used to be like, how things she used to do and enjoy used to be. In going back sooner, she not only saves her "family" but she saves her own soul as well.

The entire ep. is about her saving her soul.

EGADS! So it's even *worse* than what I originally thought.

Because what you are saying is that she broke the TPD for purely selfish reasons - to save HERSELF, and to make her own life happier.

I was *at least* giving her credit for being altruistic and doing it for others. But now you tell me that she changed the timeline for hundreds of millions of people in order to save HERSELF?? So that she would feel better around her own life later? So that she wouldn't have to deal with the simple reality of life: that we ALL lose people we love? She didn't like the way it came out, so she yelled 'do over!!!!'?????

ACK! Even worse that I originally thought.

If, indeed you are correct and I 'missed the point of the episode'.


I wish that *I* could call 'do over' on MY life, because at this point, I'm pretty cynical and jaded as well. I also lost my father in 1984, and I sure would like to have him back! And while we're at it, I wouldn't mind having my grandma around too. She died in 1985.

Fortunately for the rest of the universe, I don't have the ability to use Federation resources to go back in time and change history so that it comes out better for ME.

However, you just admitted you would if you could.

Who wouldn't? It's what makes us human, to never want to hurt or become jaded. Too be happy. If Trek is about humanity, then Janeways actions selfish or not make her very human and that keeps in with the theme of Trek.

Realistically what's more important, your fathers life or the Prime Directive? Janeway saw no choice to be made in the matter as would you, as would any of us.

Putting yourself now in that characters shoes, could you now fault her?

 

[DonIago]

^Can I fault her for putting her little crew above the fate of quite possibly the entire galaxy (because who knows how much good Voyager did during the aborted part of their trip)?

You bet I can.

I kind of bet Joe Carey could too.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

CindyLouWho said:

exodus said:

PKTrekGirl said:


I think the biggest beef with Endgame was that, after 7 years of running all over the dangerous DQ while defending and fiercely clinging to Federation principles...Janeway completely ABANDONS one of the most MASSIVE of those principles - the TPD - just to make a couple of dead friends happy. This was NOT consistent with her core beliefs, as illustrated numerous times throughout the series.

Then you completely missed the entire point of the episode. The ep. has little to do with making dead friends happy, they're dead how can they still be happy?

The point was Adm. Janeway was going back in time to prevent herself from become the person she became. To stop herself from becoming jaded to the point where she no longer believed in the principals and morals she once had. Janeway lost her most closest friends, Chakotay became her second best friend and basically killed himself, Tuvok her first best went insane and Seven died. These were the people she cared for the most. Without them or her former boyfriend, she had nothing to come home too.

The whole ep. Adm. Janeway keeps saying how she forgot what she used to be like, how things she used to do and enjoy used to be. In going back sooner, she not only saves her "family" but she saves her own soul as well.

The entire ep. is about her saving her soul.

EGADS! So it's even *worse* than what I originally thought.

Because what you are saying is that she broke the TPD for purely selfish reasons - to save HERSELF, and to make her own life happier.

I was *at least* giving her credit for being altruistic and doing it for others. But now you tell me that she changed the timeline for hundreds of millions of people in order to save HERSELF?? So that she would feel better around her own life later? So that she wouldn't have to deal with the simple reality of life: that we ALL lose people we love? She didn't like the way it came out, so she yelled 'do over!!!!'?????

ACK! Even worse that I originally thought.

If, indeed you are correct and I 'missed the point of the episode'.


I wish that *I* could call 'do over' on MY life, because at this point, I'm pretty cynical and jaded as well. I also lost my father in 1984, and I sure would like to have him back! And while we're at it, I wouldn't mind having my grandma around too. She died in 1985.

Fortunately for the rest of the universe, I don't have the ability to use Federation resources to go back in time and change history so that it comes out better for ME.

When you put it that way time travel sounds pretty damn . . . Good. I'm actually reversing my position on Janeway's TPD violation after years of hating Endgame because . . . HOT DAMN, I'd do the same thing myself. I can think of a few people who'd be alive right now if I could time travel. Shit I can think of two towers full of people and a war that never happened because I could time travel. Shit anyone condemning Janeway is nuts. If the time barrier is breakable then its breakable for the same reason that a window is breakable. So you can put nicer glass in the window.

 

[intrinsical]

I'm sure warp technology also improved in future Janeway's time. So why didn't future Janeway travel further back in time, give Voyager advanced warp technology together with the other stuff and allow the Federation to win the Dominion war with superior technology? She would have saved her soul AND saved billions of lives.

 

[JD]

Because Janeway only cared about saving her friends on Voyager.

 

[Anwar]

Because then VOY wouldn't have been around to stop the 8472 invasion, the Krenim Timeship, etc. She went to a time after they'd done their most important things for the universe and then sent them back because there wasn't anything super-important to do in those years they'd have spent going back.