Why Is It Fashionable to Insult TOS?

[I am not Spock]

Not me.

I was born in 1982, and I loved TOS growing up. Watched it in the early Nineties in reruns. Couldn't get enough of it.

I'm kind of atypical for my generation (I fall into Gen Y, sadly). I don't care so much about SFX and the like, as long as the story is good. TOS told fantastic stories. (I find CGI irritating and overused, actually)

Younger fans should look past the sets, costumes, effects, acting, etc, and see the great storytelling of TOS.

 

[I am not Spock]

Here's the key: you have to watch Star Trek (or any movie or TV show from a bygone era) IN CONTEXT. Get a 14 year old to watch the 1933 King Kong and you'll get a kid ragging on it. Yet I look at it and think it's amazing they did all that in 33, because I'm watching it with 1933 eyes.

If one is to appreciate a piece of film from a bygone era, then one must understand the origins and limitations of: effects technology, acting styles and the expense of color film. Star Trek did not have bed special effects. Many of them were, frankly, groundbreaking for the time.

Oh, I prefer the 33 version of Kong to the Peter Jackson version. I agree with you. Effects doth not necessarily a great film make. Didn't TOS win an Emmy for Best Visual Effects at the time?

 

[Dream]

ENT and VOY get far more hate around here.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Polaris's posts are a little odd.... they seem kinda split. I've seen him defend TOS and outright insult it.

My opinion varies depending on what's being discussed and in what context. TOS was not a monolithic creation - To treat all parts of it as always equal and all beyond criticism...is a kind of "fandom" I can't stomach.

I'll stack most of the first year of the show (and TOS was a TV show, the movies should be called something else) up against any science fiction on American television before or since. Someone wants to insist that drek like "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" is brilliant and important stuff...well, they're welcome to it.

 

[Bishbot]

Not me.

I was born in 1982, and I loved TOS growing up. Watched it in the early Nineties in reruns. Couldn't get enough of it.

I'm kind of atypical for my generation (I fall into Gen Y, sadly). I don't care so much about SFX and the like, as long as the story is good. TOS told fantastic stories. (I find CGI irritating and overused, actually)

Younger fans should look past the sets, costumes, effects, acting, etc, and see the great storytelling of TOS.

Of course - born in 1986 here and TOS is probably my favourite Trek. It rotates occasionaly, depending on what I'm watching more often, but its been TOS for a long time now. I have a friend born on the exact same day as me who also loves TOS, but only TOS whereas I do give the other shows my time at least sometimes, so not all young people find it hard to enjoy. I do wonder if we're the last generation who'll be able to though.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The "in context" argument only works for aficionados. If fiction is truly good, it works with - at least - very incomplete understanding of the original context.

If that were not so, all fiction would be unreadable (or unwatchable) within a few generations of its creation (instead of simply largely unread or unwatched).

The notion that Trek should continue unchanged or that it should be "protected" like a scarce natural resource is simply a prescription for its extinction. I assume that formulation is fine for some self-described purists; better that Trek die than that the unwashed (frequently referred to as "kewl kids," "the ADHD generation" or the more generic and ever-popular "the masses") into the clubhouse.

 

[Neopeius]

I dunno.. how about nearly EVERY SINGLE POST by Polaris, for instance? How about constantly harping on the 'camp' in the acting, etc.

You know, I enjoy reading Starship Polaris's posts and I can't say I noticed he hated TOS. I thought he had affection for all ST. He wrote for TNG, but he also wrote Episode #2 for "Starship Exeter", a fanfilm series that deliberately glorifies everything that makes TOS, well... TOS!

When will Ep #2 be completed? I've been waiting years now.

 

[Ssosmcin]

The "in context" argument only works for aficionados. If fiction is truly good, it works with - at least - very incomplete understanding of the original context.

If we were talking about literature, I would agree. But TV is a visual medium and a lot of people have a hard time getting past dated sfx. The greatest story in the world will not appeal to people who cannot tolerate outdated effects.

The notion that Trek should continue unchanged or that it should be "protected" like a scarce natural resource is simply a prescription for its extinction. I assume that formulation is fine for some self-described purists; better that Trek die than that the unwashed (frequently referred to as "kewl kids," "the ADHD generation" or the more generic and ever-popular "the masses") into the clubhouse.

(Funnily enough, I have Attention Deficit and I'm 41)

I personally think the new effects are a boon to the series and do help bring in new and younger eyes. if the movie appeals to the younger set, they might seek out the original as well. And the news that the Blu-Ray sets will include the original versions as well is the best of both worlds. Now if they had intended to burn the original prints and call this version the "only version", then I'd object. Alternate versions make it easy to not bitch to loudly. :-) Besides, I have so many versions of the series, what's one more?

My point was that people who do watch the show "in context" do not NEED the new effects and don't think the effects "suck", just that they are of the time. Seeing a show in that light helps the appreciation of the original product. You don't have to be a Trek fan to watch a show i this way, just open minded about film and TV history as a whole.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

If we were talking about literature, I would agree. But TV is a visual medium and a lot of people have a hard time getting past dated sfx. The greatest story in the world will not appeal to people who cannot tolerate outdated effects.

Well, if that's the case then TOS is to be consigned to the ash heap within this generation. Paramount may as well do whatever they please with "Star Trek" - new versions can't distract younger viewers from the original, since younger viewers cannot be attracted to the original because it's outdated and can't be appreciated outside of some special context.

In fact, I expect TOS will just continue to be an enthusiasm for a small group of people - the way "Forbidden Planet" is (my favorite sf movie).

The second "Starship Exeter" movie has been dragging on for years. We're at the beginning of a push to get it finished within the next couple of months.

 

[Warped9]

^ Insulting the show responsible for the new movies very existence?

Seriously, do yourself a favor. To put it mildly I'm strongly against the new movie. To those who feel the same, just avoid talking about it with those who are enthusiastic about it if possible. Neither side is going to convince the other of anything, it just ends up turning into a big messy argument that can have no winner. Why not let them enjoy it, we still have the originals to talk about.

Well said. I've said my peace much earlier on. After initial curiosity I now stay out of the Trek XI forum and any conversations dealing with it. If I'm asked my opinion in day-to-day activity then I just state that what I've seen and heard of it just doesn't interest me in the least. I suspect there'll be a lot of initial buzz, it'll likely have a decent opening weekend and after that...well, I'll say it won't be a surprise if negative word-of-mouth starts to really get around.

 

[Ssosmcin]

If we were talking about literature, I would agree. But TV is a visual medium and a lot of people have a hard time getting past dated sfx. The greatest story in the world will not appeal to people who cannot tolerate outdated effects.

Well, if that's the case then TOS is to be consigned to the ash heap within this generation. Paramount may as well do whatever they please with "Star Trek" - new versions can't distract younger viewers from the original, since younger viewers cannot be attracted to the original because it's outdated and can't be appreciated outside of some special context.

In fact, I expect TOS will just continue to be an enthusiasm for a small group of people - the way "Forbidden Planet" is (my favorite sf movie).

FP is an amazing piece of work, always one of my favorites. My nephew hates it, he prefers Star Wars episodes 1 - 3.

There will always be people who will appreciate and not be bothered by the outdated aspects. The series will remain a high point in American TV history.

However, I can see it happening with shows like I Love Lucy and The Honeymooners, which have great comic value, but are horribly dated. They are looked upon as legends of TV, but how many NEW fans do they get as time goes on? When my generation dies, will even these shows still be easy to find? Every genre will have its fans, but the sun sets eventually.

This has gone off topic, but it is a little connected to why you hear more bashing of the acting and effects of Trek even when talking the show up.

 

[ToddPence]

People who bash the show for the original "dated" style and effects probably lack the discernment to be aware that in many ways the standards of television production have declined badly since the mid 1960's. You may laugh out loud at this statement, but one area in which it is evident is in music. There is a reason the music works so well and is so memorable on shows like the original Star Trek and other shows of the decade. In the 1960's scores for individual television episodes were approached as seriously as scores for motion picture. Composers composed their music specifically around action in a story, and the orchestra that performed it was led by a conductor who was taking his cues from the action on the screen. This just isn't done today, at least for episodic television. It's all bland, unmemorable canned stock music.

 

[Therin of Andor]

When will Ep #2 be completed? I've been waiting years now.

I was in Ep #1. There was quite a wait to see that, too.

Good things are worth waiting for.

 

[I am not Spock]

People who bash the show for the original "dated" style and effects probably lack the discernment to be aware that in many ways the standards of television production have declined badly since the mid 1960's. You may laugh out loud at this statement, but one area in which it is evident is in music. There is a reason the music works so well and is so memorable on shows like the original Star Trek and other shows of the decade. In the 1960's scores for individual television episodes were approached as seriously as scores for motion picture. Composers composed their music specifically around action in a story, and the orchestra that performed it was led by a conductor who was taking his cues from the action on the screen. This just isn't done today, at least for episodic television. It's all bland, unmemorable canned stock music.

You're right.

Although TOS did use some stock music sometimes, most eps indeed had an original score.
If you watch a random Law and Order episode these days, the use of stock music is just horrendous.

 

[Nerys Myk]

People who bash the show for the original "dated" style and effects probably lack the discernment to be aware that in many ways the standards of television production have declined badly since the mid 1960's. You may laugh out loud at this statement, but one area in which it is evident is in music. There is a reason the music works so well and is so memorable on shows like the original Star Trek and other shows of the decade. In the 1960's scores for individual television episodes were approached as seriously as scores for motion picture. Composers composed their music specifically around action in a story, and the orchestra that performed it was led by a conductor who was taking his cues from the action on the screen. This just isn't done today, at least for episodic television. It's all bland, unmemorable canned stock music.

You're right.

Although TOS did use some stock music sometimes, most eps indeed had an original score.
If you watch a random Law and Order episode these days, the use of stock music is just horrendous.

They have more than that one piece?

 

[3D Master]

I lurk in both this forum and the Trek XI one quite a lot, and, I'm sorry to say, that most of the criticism of TOS from the Trek XI forum comes from frustration with a few posters who are TOS fans (nothing wrong with that) who only discuss what the film probably will have wrong with it. There's also nothing wrong with not being interested in Trek XI, for any reason you choose, but constantly posting bashing threads or posts on a film no-one has seen yet gets really old, and it pisses people off.

Unfortunately those same posters never accept the reasoned arguments people make about why designs and styles have to change to make that era relevant in a modern theatrical release and interpret them as bashing. Its not, its just common sense. Saying "You couldn't release something that looks like TOS today" is not the same as saying "TOS was and is shit".

People don't accept that arguments because they are NOT reasoned. If you can't show anything that looks like TOS today, WHY do the uniforms look like TOS uniforms? In fact, they are such carbon copies; that if I had been the producer of this movie I would have made more changes to them.

The ship required no changes; neither did the bridge - apart from a budget and thus detail upgrade; just like the uniforms now.

 

[Kirk1980]

Fair enough, Polaris.

Some very good points have been made here....

I just think there's a better way to approach talking about the SFX and such in the original series than to say they 'suck' and 'outdated' and other such negative terms.

To me, saying that reads as being dismissive of what was achieved at the time with little or no respect for it.

To wit, I think saying I'd want to see what Trek could be given modern effects and all the budget it could need to get things done both acknowledges the limitations of 1966 technology and also says I'm not 'attached' to the 1966 look and regard it as 100 percent sacrosanct.

 

[Aquehonga]

Because some folks are Herberts & worse than that are some so-called “Treksters” who pan TOS without ever seen it, or viewed more than a clip or 2.

those “aficionados” make me with their willful ignorance.

 

[Bishbot]

I lurk in both this forum and the Trek XI one quite a lot, and, I'm sorry to say, that most of the criticism of TOS from the Trek XI forum comes from frustration with a few posters who are TOS fans (nothing wrong with that) who only discuss what the film probably will have wrong with it. There's also nothing wrong with not being interested in Trek XI, for any reason you choose, but constantly posting bashing threads or posts on a film no-one has seen yet gets really old, and it pisses people off.

Unfortunately those same posters never accept the reasoned arguments people make about why designs and styles have to change to make that era relevant in a modern theatrical release and interpret them as bashing. Its not, its just common sense. Saying "You couldn't release something that looks like TOS today" is not the same as saying "TOS was and is shit".

People don't accept that arguments because they are NOT reasoned. If you can't show anything that looks like TOS today, WHY do the uniforms look like TOS uniforms? In fact, they are such carbon copies; that if I had been the producer of this movie I would have made more changes to them.

The ship required no changes; neither did the bridge - apart from a budget and thus detail upgrade; just like the uniforms now.

See that's exactly what I mean. You perceived an insult to TOS there, and there is none. I agree with you in some ways - I'd cheerfully watch a film that was a better looking, more detailed version of TOS's style, but the general public won't, because they won't understand it, and scifi is expensive to make, so you need people to go see the thing. I might be wrong, we'll never know, but that I do believe that, and apparently so do the makers of the movie but that doesn't make it a slight on TOS.

 

[3D Master]

I lurk in both this forum and the Trek XI one quite a lot, and, I'm sorry to say, that most of the criticism of TOS from the Trek XI forum comes from frustration with a few posters who are TOS fans (nothing wrong with that) who only discuss what the film probably will have wrong with it. There's also nothing wrong with not being interested in Trek XI, for any reason you choose, but constantly posting bashing threads or posts on a film no-one has seen yet gets really old, and it pisses people off.

Unfortunately those same posters never accept the reasoned arguments people make about why designs and styles have to change to make that era relevant in a modern theatrical release and interpret them as bashing. Its not, its just common sense. Saying "You couldn't release something that looks like TOS today" is not the same as saying "TOS was and is shit".

People don't accept that arguments because they are NOT reasoned. If you can't show anything that looks like TOS today, WHY do the uniforms look like TOS uniforms? In fact, they are such carbon copies; that if I had been the producer of this movie I would have made more changes to them.

The ship required no changes; neither did the bridge - apart from a budget and thus detail upgrade; just like the uniforms now.

See that's exactly what I mean. You perceived an insult to TOS there, and there is none. I agree with you in some ways - I'd cheerfully watch a film that was a better looking, more detailed version of TOS's style, but the general public won't, because they won't understand it,

So they won't understand the uniforms, so they won't go watch it. Damn, JJ screwed up! The uniforms should be as unrecognizable as the ship and the bridge! This film is doomed!

and scifi is expensive to make, so you need people to go see the thing. I might be wrong, we'll never know, but that I do believe that, and apparently so do the makers of the movie but that doesn't make it a slight on TOS.

And the makers of the movie screwed up their reasoning for changing the ship and the bridge, by not changing the unifrorms! This movie is doomed!