Why is DS9 the black sheep?
- Thread starter T'Baio
- Start date
Okay..now this I can buy.
The thing that was chiefly of interest about Q was his relationship with Picard. That whole cat-and-mouse thing they had going on was good, and indeed, produced some of my more positive memories of TNG.
But he was a TNG character that should have stayed on TNG. Like Guinan, who fortunately *did* stay on TNG. And like Luwaxana Troi, who unfortunately *did NOT* stay on TNG.
I think all the shows have certain characters who really only 'fit' on that one show - Q is one of them.
But to say that one episode on DS9 (which not at all incidentally was largely centered on Q's relationship to ANOTHER TNG character who should have stayed on TNG) completely 'destroyed' the character is more than a bit much.
In fact, that episode of DS9 probably has the most TNG influence and subject matter of any episode in DS9!
Q was very much himself on DS9. The writers didn't change anything about his personality, his powers, or his motivations. They didn't make up a new backstory for him or anything like that. They didn't kill him, or limit his future abilities or fitness for TNG episodes. They didn't even have him do anything that was out of character!
So one could hardly say he was 'destroyed'. He was the same guy on DS9 as he was on TNG, and NOTHING DS9 DID changed his character in the slightest.
If anything, the DS9 episode was ruined by HIM - not the opposite.
Because he simply didn't fit in the show.I didn't think Bashir fit all that well into TNG...but I'd hardly say that one appearance, during which he was the same guy as usual, 'destroyed' him.
^^ It doesn't help that the majority of characters who cross over are so obviously wedged in for the sake of it. The EMH (well Zimmerman) on DS9, Quark in Voyager, Q in Voyager, Bashir on TNG, Riker on Voyager, Riker/Troi on Enterprise, none of them really worked. The less said about Lwaxana the better! The only crossover that's really worked for me, was Tom Riker on DS9.
Putting a character like Q, who's development was already rich, and who was so dependent on Picard, in a completely different show should have been a non-starter from the get-go. Sadly it wasn't, but on the bright side, they realised their mistake and never brought him back. Voyager on the other hand, was he in three episodes in the end? One of which worked to a certain degree, and then two more that were frankly awful, and to be fair, went some way to completely undermining what we'd come to know of the Q Continuum.
Putting a character like Q, who's development was already rich, and who was so dependent on Picard, in a completely different show should have been a non-starter from the get-go. Sadly it wasn't, but on the bright side, they realised their mistake and never brought him back. Voyager on the other hand, was he in three episodes in the end? One of which worked to a certain degree, and then two more that were frankly awful, and to be fair, went some way to completely undermining what we'd come to know of the Q Continuum.
Q's appearance on DS9--along with the appearance of Vash and those insipid Klingon sisters--all in the same episode was perhaps the nadir of the series. Did it ruin Q? Hardly--TNG beat him up pretty badly in "Hide and Q." Didn't do any favors to DS9, though.
As for Doctor Zimmerman, I thought that episode worked pretty well as a Bashir vehicle. The Zimmerman sub-plot concerning Leeta and Rom was a waste, though.
VOY went a long way toward ruining the Q with the civil war story and kiddie Q episodes. Pity, since a Q civil war could have made for a mind-bending, Phil Dick-style reality cluster-fuck of a movie and given John DeLancie a last hurrah as TNG's eighth crewman.
As for Doctor Zimmerman, I thought that episode worked pretty well as a Bashir vehicle. The Zimmerman sub-plot concerning Leeta and Rom was a waste, though.
VOY went a long way toward ruining the Q with the civil war story and kiddie Q episodes. Pity, since a Q civil war could have made for a mind-bending, Phil Dick-style reality cluster-fuck of a movie and given John DeLancie a last hurrah as TNG's eighth crewman.
Hey, hey, hey!
Don't be dissin' the cross-overs! MU Tuvok fit on DS9 just fine, after all! 
I mean, what did they give him? Like two lines or something?
No...seriously...I couldn't agree with you more. There were very few crossovers in Trek that worked. The only ones I can think off, right off the bat, were Spock on TNG and Tom Riker on DS9. And of course Miles O'Brien on DS9.
The rest, by and large, where crap. And it should be noted that I include in that number Worf on DS9.
The guy totally didn't fit and came off like a giant stick-in-the-mud on DS9. 'Stick-in-the-mud' fits with Picard milling around in the background...but not with Sisko!
I mean, if I had been a DS9 character, after that brush-up with Odo and the whole Risa fiasco, I'd be thinkin' that this was a guy who needed to get laid in the worst possible way! Even the writers knew he didn't fit...and so basically wrote his awkward fit INTO the show!
Good catch, Ira!
Seriously...the only thing Worf really contributed to DS9 was the ease which which the writers could then bring in the REAL Klingons. Worf was like a fish-out-of-water on DS9...but Martok ROCKED! :thumbsup:
I LOVED all of those Sisko/Martok bonding moments. Here were two characters who 'got it' - who recognized their cultural differences, but accepted them and worked together to win that war, despite all obstacles. Neither 'preached' at the other or grumbled and moaned and got all angst-ridden like Worf - they just accepted their differences and went with it. The bottle of blood wine on Cardassia at the end of the war was a prime example of that! Sisko pours his out in disgust over what they had had to do to win....but Martok, completely undeterred and unoffended, just shrugs and drinks anyway.
Fabulous!!!!
I'm not sure on Worf. He's not the same character he is on TNG that's for sure, but I always took that to be because he's not really at ease around Humans. He eventually fit into the TNG crew but was right back to square one with new people around him when he transferred to DS9. Of course you're right about him facilitating the introduction of the Klingons. In hindsight, DS9 without the Klingons, just doesn't seem right now!
Re Worf and Sisko, I always found it amusing that Worf was intimidated by Sisko.
Re Worf and Sisko, I always found it amusing that Worf was intimidated by Sisko.
Ah...jeez....I had forgotten all about the Klingon sisters until you reminded me! Thanks alot.
That is my take as well. Plus, I agree with angel - with the exception of Death Wish (which I thought was excellent), VOY did alot more to 'destroy' Q than DS9 did.
The Civil War turned out to be a non-starter...and the Q-kid stories were kinda ridiculous. And BOTH effected the backstory of the Q Continuum in some fairly monumental ways....something that DS9 never did in it's one measly outing with Q.Agreed. The Bashir part of the episode was great, and I gotta give Picardo credit where credit is due, even though the EMH is my least favorite character in Trek. Zimmerman was okay - although the plot with Zimmerman/Leeta/Rom was lame - I'd have rather have seen more of Bashir's family and backstory explained, to be honest.
Yeah...the idea of a civil war in the Q Continuum was marvelous! But where they went wrong was trying to turn it into "Trek Does Gone With the Wind".
Apparently so. Seems I conflated the TNG taint. My bad.
Thats more of a quirky episode than a bad one. I think Piller and co. were quite pleased with it.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
He wrote that particular script... but the Borg (or some version of them at least) were indeed planned by Gene before (and maybe Maurice Hurley was involved then too, I don't know).
If you watch the Season 1 finale, "The Neutral Zone", the Borg are hinted heavily at... Federation outposts along Neutral Zone have been "scooped out", they suspect the Romulans. I believe it was revealed that the same thing happened on the Romulan side, and they agreed to 'exchange information' on this issue. FWIW Hurley does teleplay credit on this episode too, so maybe (s)he was heavily involved back then too with the borg creation.
The 'agreement' between the Feds and the Roms was meant to be the first sign of the "team-up" I referenced earlier.
DS9 was actually what brought me back to Trek after being bored to tears by TNG.
I grew up in the eighties watching old reruns of the Original and then the Original Movies and I was so excited about a new Trek series. I lasted about four episodes. Man, what a boring, boring show.
I loved DS9 from the moment Sisko punched that flamboyant femme-man Q right off his station. And, hey, it worked! Q never came back to bother The Sisko again.
DS9 was ahead of its time. It's still gaining new fans as people's tastes evolve and continue to develop.
I grew up in the eighties watching old reruns of the Original and then the Original Movies and I was so excited about a new Trek series. I lasted about four episodes. Man, what a boring, boring show.
I loved DS9 from the moment Sisko punched that flamboyant femme-man Q right off his station. And, hey, it worked! Q never came back to bother The Sisko again.
DS9 was ahead of its time. It's still gaining new fans as people's tastes evolve and continue to develop.
Thespeckledkiwi
Vice Admiral
I think it also goes into this: People just don't like philosophy and DS9 was steep with philosophy.
I sugest you re-examine S1 of the other Trek shows
TOS "Court Martial", VOY "Ex Post Facto" One of the characters listed in the credits is accused of Murder
TOS "The Naked Time", TNG "The Naked Now" The crew is infected by a virus.
So it would appear that like the other shows, DSN S1 shared some basic story elements.
As for the lack of light bulbs on the space station, perhaps the Cardassian race prefers a lower light level than humans. At least it is an effort to bring different characteristics to an alien race, whether it works or not is a different debate.
