Why is DS9 the black sheep?

[Navaros]

KayArr said:
I'm not crazy about Voyager, but some of it I like. I love TOS, TNG, and Enterprise. DS9 is the only one that I didn't watch--I found it deadly dull. The whole Bajoran situation just bored me to tears. That said--my all-time favorite series ever is Alien Nation--and that's all about the Newcomers trying to adapt to life after slavery and how earthlings reacted to them. That's not completely unlike the Bajorans. I dunno--would I have liked it in later seasons?

Yes, you would like it in later seasons, my friend. Many hardcore DS9 fans hate Bajorans and Bajoran-based stories and are likewise bored to tears by them just as you are. But there is good news. In the later seasons DS9 stops being Bajoran-centic, and instead becomes (which is way, way better) Dominion-centric.

I suggest you give DS9 another try, and simply read an episode summary before you watch an episode. If it's a Bajoran episode, skip it. There's much to love about DS9, and indeed Bajorans are not one of those things (other than the amazing, devious Kai Winn and possibly one or two others). So best to forget about Bajorans, watch DS9 anyways, and enjoy all the great aspects of the show instead. :thumbsup:

 

[KayArr]

I'll look and see where DS9 is in the rerun cycle on tv--if I like a few, I'll try netflix. I should give it another chance--and it'll be new Trek for me. I miss new Trek!

 

[Lilith]

Having only really followed TNG and seen just a handfull of TOS, DS9, VOY and one ENT episode, I'll admit I might not have the most informed of opinions, but I did try to watch DS9. And I didn't quite it because of the arcs, the black commander, the boring bajorans (which I did find boring), or even, later on, the unrecognizable Worf or a handful of the other little things that irked (such as the lighting), but because I felt DS9 went a step back in terms of humanity.

Yes, TNG can be overly perfect at times, and makes you want to slap the senior staff when they're having yet another conference, but at least it shows that 400 years from now, humans have moved on from the petty bickering, the patriotism-to-a-fault, the grad-a-gun-before-thinking and the often portraited lack of empathy and sympathy that run rampant now.

In DS9 I saw all those traits abundantly and it irked the heck out of me. No matter how brilliantly they wrote O'Brien I just turned it off. I like a bit more positive outlook on the futury, or rather, a sense that our species continues to develop.

What also irks me, and this goes for the whole of Trek. Why can't we, just once, have an alien-species that's ahead of the Federation and isn't a money-grabbing, treacherous, slimy, destructive race? I'm getting so tired of the human superiority over everything else. (Mind you, that doesn't mean TNG should've been less perfect, but an alien-of-the-week should've been more perfect)

I get that there are plenty of people who enjoy DS9 because of these (and other) reasons, which is good. I do like the idea of a darker Trek, I just wish the formula had been different. Okay, maybe I was just upset not to be seeing Picard, Troi, LaForge & co anymore

But lastly: the Ferengi. Really They are annoying as hell for multiple reasons and not just because 'they're meant to be annoying'

This ended up rather longwinded

 

[Photon]

I humbly suggest re-watching it through.

 

[Photon]

DS9's portrayal of mankind is and will more accurate the over sugar-coated version of GR. You man hope mankind will "evolve" but man's nature hasn't changed since the Garden and won't when we're flying near the Neutral Zone or taking Dominion prisoners. Unless man's nature is changed via Deity intervention, it will be the same ol same ol.

 

[Angel4576]

Lilith said:
Why can't we, just once, have an alien-species that's ahead of the Federation and isn't a money-grabbing, treacherous, slimy, destructive race?

Now that's a very good point!

 

[Balthier the Great]

Photon said:
DS9's portrayal of mankind is and will more accurate the over sugar-coated version of GR. You man hope mankind will "evolve" but man's nature hasn't changed since the Garden and won't when we're flying near the Neutral Zone or taking Dominion prisoners. Unless man's nature is changed via Deity intervention, it will be the same ol same ol.

Hey at least we've stopped feeding people to lions. I think that's progress. We allow for religious and political freedom, you can say whatever you want without getting arrested. Try that about 500 years ago. But please note that I'm not bailing you out. We've made some progress, it's slower than I'd like to see, but there is some forward momentum here.

 

[Angel4576]

BalthierTheGreat said:
Hey at least we've stopped feeding people to lions. I think that's progress. We allow for religious and political freedom, you can say whatever you want without getting arrested. Try that about 500 years ago. But please note that I'm not bailing you out. We've made some progress, it's slower than I'd like to see, but there is some forward momentum here.

Religious and political freedoms are not a global absolute. Try saying what you want and claiming freedom of speech in Tehran or Pyongyang.

Looking at the progress we've made over the last 500 years and extrapolating that out, we'll be nowhere near the likes of the humanity portrayed in Star Trek. More likely is a human civilisation like that portrayed in B5, where our technological curve accelerates at a greater rate than our sociological curve. Our technological achievements might be great, but our cultural ones won't keep pace.

 

[indranee]

Angel4576 said:

Lilith said:
Why can't we, just once, have an alien-species that's ahead of the Federation and isn't a money-grabbing, treacherous, slimy, destructive race?

Now that's a very good point!

err... uhmmm... we did. remember the Vulcans? the Trill? the Organians? to name but a few.

 

[indranee]

Nebusj said:
The detailed political intrigues of a bunch of made-up species forced to wear silly latex appliques?

uh huh, right. so tell me -- exactly which alien species in Trek WEREN'T made up?

I am a Niner... let's get that out of the way (in case people here didn't know that already ).

the reasons why DS9 was the black sheep of the Trek family are threefold:

1) it's too different from TNG and deconstructed almost every TNG-ism established through the 80s and 90s.

2) Sisko was a black man.

3) Kira was a royal b***h.

and not only do I love the show for ALL those reasons, I say more power to DS9 for ALL those reasons.

 

[Angel4576]

Without being too picky, weren't the Vulcans and the Trill both part of the Federation?

Although the Vulcans of the Enterprise era could be as devious as anyone

 

[indranee]

well, I'm sure the Feds would love to think so, but I think they followed their own path mostly aka they much too often dictated Fed policy.

 

[Vonstadt]

KayArr said:
I don't watch it for special effects and space battles (wormhole and Dominion War = DS9 anyone?)

DS9 had some of the most in depth characters in the point of interaction and history than most did in any other Trek. Perhaps a degree of patience and a dash of understanding Trek's use of allegory to tell a tale would be useful to you *wink* DS9 went beyond just special effect space battles, there was more often then not a well written in depth reason for the conflict.

The reasons and depth provided by the political and exploration prospects a new frontior are way too numerous to go into for this thread. However DS9 gave us an expanded insight to the UFP of the 24th century's politcal world too. That alone added incredible depth...the wormhole was more than a gimmick it was a clever little series macguffin

The Dominion war was an example of the failure of certian diplomatic policies as well as the clash of a new culture that can not always be negotiated with due to its foundation based on fear (allergory again!).

I also do not fully agree on the Isreal(Bajorian)/Cardassian(Palestine) relation. The model fits many such culture clashes throughout history, as it should to tell decent episodes.

--I watch for characters. Enterprise had the best characters

In your opinion I happen to largely disagree. While I enjoy most of ENT it's characters are a tad 2d when compared to the depth of of those established in DS9. I am an honest to god TOS fan and even there there was woeful underuse of some of the 'Magnificent 7' when compared to the depth the writers of DS9 were able to go into.

TOS is still my favorite but it would be remiss to just wave a hand and ignore the depth the episodic arc brings to a character. Weekly resets (which the early two seasons of ENT, and most of VOY (not all of the time mind you) and well even TNG, limit the so called continuity feel of a show.

TOS hasn't aged well, and the DS9 characters didn't interest me much.

TOS is surprisingly still /very/ relevant. 'A Private Little War' comes to mind for one...a Vietnam allegory with a dash of a Cold War parable about the over reaching often interfering arm of Superpowers.

Sure "Way to Eden's " space hippies don't age well and such but the really good ones are timeless classics "City on the Edge of Forever' "Doomsday Machine' even the message behind 'Arena' are three that come to mind...that reach out and beyond.

So I think TOS is aging just nicely thank you

I still say in time as the DvD's are watched and re watched the little hidden gem of DS9 will be the show folks look to in later years as yet another classic show for the franchise and the last trek that boldly took chances with it's writing.

In my opinion anyways. I am a child of the 70's that grew up hearing how Trek was just a fad as TOS languished in syndication. I had a feeling then about that little show that could...I have the same feeling about how DS9 wil be remembered as well.

Like I said it's just my opinion.

 

[Navaros]

KayArr said:
'kay--I love being right!

I'm supposed to believe that Sisko, the man who'd lived through Wolf whatever it was and seen the Borg nearly destroy Star Fleet, would be making pissy faces about allowing a few killed to save many? Actually--the episode might have been okay without Sisko's little 3-year old tantrum, crossing his arms etc. at the end. Hit folks over the head with your point instead of just making it much?

Ah, KayArr my friend. I just saw an episode of Voyager, a show you give high praise to. An episode in which Janeway organizes an alliance with a sinister race that tries to massacre all the Kazon leaders in a board room during the peace talk meeting. Then I thought of the quoted comments above.

What Janeway says at the end of the episode (not verbatim although pretty close, but I'm probably forgetting some of the hokey words ): "We can learn something from what happened today. In a quadrant with no rules, we need something to rely on. That is our Federation values. They are the best allies we have!"

Now, that hokey speech by Janeway is beating the audience over the head with a point instead of just making it. Hearing that speech made me feel as if I was watching a kid's show like Barney the Big Purple Dinosaur in which they always be sure to verbalize the lesson of the day.

Contrast this with Sisko in ITPM, and Sisko is infinitely more subtle and nuanced.

As for the point you make about just a few dead, that's interesting. But when you contrast it with Janeway's speech above, it becomes clear it's something Janeway would never do regardless of it just being a few dead. Because Janeway is a zealot for Federation principles whereas Sisko - who is also trained the same way and "supposed" to have the same zeal - has come to accept that Federation principles aren't always practical and must be thrown out the window sometimes. This discovery and internal conflict it causes in Sisko is fascinating and part of what makes ITPM great.

Another thing to consider is that it's not only the deaths that have already occurred that was on Sisko's mind. Sisko was also somewhat responsible for the forthcoming innocent Romulan civilian deaths that his deception and the ensuing war will have caused. And for plunging an entire race into war who didn't really need to be in war for their own sake, thereby causing innumerable more unnecesary (for the Romulans) deaths.

I wonder, KayArr, what specific episodes from other Trek shows you would consider to explore themes as deep as this, or have the fortitude to be as bold about them as ITPM is?

 

[Angel4576]

Let's not forget the Scorpion 2-parter. Janeway blindly agrees to help the Borg commit genocide against Species 8472 just to guarantee safe passage through Borg space. So the number of lives onboard Voyager are somehow worth more than an entire species?

Compare and contrast these actions to her attitude in Equinox when she comes across the exact same thing with Ransom and the crew of the Equinox, exploiting aliens to get home.

Awful series.

 

[Anwar]

I think it may have had something more to do with that 8472 had declared they were going to annihilate all life in the galaxy unless they were stopped. They were worse than the Borg.

Compared to Ransom, who was committing genocide on innocent aliens who were minding their own business whenever he called and killed them.

 

[Angel4576]

Sounds like you may not have seen subsequent episodes. It was revealed that it was the Borg who made the initial incursion into fluidic space in order to assimilate Species 8472. Janeway of course didn't take the time to find this out at the time of signing up with the Borg. Why would she doubt the Borg though, they're such an honest, and impassive race....

 

[KayArr]

Navaros said:

KayArr said:
'kay--I love being right!

I'm supposed to believe that Sisko, the man who'd lived through Wolf whatever it was and seen the Borg nearly destroy Star Fleet, would be making pissy faces about allowing a few killed to save many? Actually--the episode might have been okay without Sisko's little 3-year old tantrum, crossing his arms etc. at the end. Hit folks over the head with your point instead of just making it much?

Ah, KayArr my friend. I just saw an episode of Voyager, a show you give high praise to. An episode in which Janeway organizes an alliance with a sinister race that tries to massacre all the Kazon leaders in a board room during the peace talk meeting. Then I thought of the quoted comments above.

What Janeway says at the end of the episode (not verbatim although pretty close, but I'm probably forgetting some of the hokey words ): "We can learn something from what happened today. In a quadrant with no rules, we need something to rely on. That is our Federation values. They are the best allies we have!"

Now, that hokey speech by Janeway is beating the audience over the head with a point instead of just making it. Hearing that speech made me feel as if I was watching a kid's show like Barney the Big Purple Dinosaur in which they always be sure to verbalize the lesson of the day.

Contrast this with Sisko in ITPM, and Sisko is infinitely more subtle and nuanced.

As for the point you make about just a few dead, that's interesting. But when you contrast it with Janeway's speech above, it becomes clear it's something Janeway would never do regardless of it just being a few dead. Because Janeway is a zealot for Federation principles whereas Sisko - who is also trained the same way and "supposed" to have the same zeal - has come to accept that Federation principles aren't always practical and must be thrown out the window sometimes. This discovery and internal conflict it causes in Sisko is fascinating and part of what makes ITPM great.

Another thing to consider is that it's not only the deaths that have already occurred that was on Sisko's mind. Sisko was also somewhat responsible for the forthcoming innocent Romulan civilian deaths that his deception and the ensuing war will have caused. And for plunging an entire race into war who didn't really need to be in war for their own sake, thereby causing innumerable more unnecesary (for the Romulans) deaths.

I wonder, KayArr, what specific episodes from other Trek shows you would consider to explore themes as deep as this, or have the fortitude to be as bold about them as ITPM is?

Can't answer because I'm not a Voyager fan. I'd rate my favorites as TOS and Enterprise tied for first, TNG next, Voyager next to last, and DS9 last. I watched precisely the same number of Voyager eps as DS9's (a season and a half of so) before tuning out. But I got intrigued by the character of 7 when I watched the Borg and Time Travel dvd sets. I scanned Jammers reviews for highly rated Voyager episodes and selectively netflixed them.

I don't highly praise any of the series, really, except for my top two picks--TOS and Enterprise.

ETA: I can see your pov about ITPM, but in addition to not liking the obviousness of it, I also think that real world leaders do that all the time. It sickens me--why watch it on tv as entertainment?

The third season of Enterprise is all about 9/11--but it's certainly not my favorite season, and during season 4 of Enterprise, I was sad the series characters were in the background of pre-TOS stories. I liked seasons 1 and 2 best (yes, I know that puts me in the minority).

Sisko/Dominion War and Enterprise/Xindi and new BSG/torture might be fine social commentary, but that doesn't mean that I want to sit down and watch them after a long day of work. I teach history--I talk to students all day long about nuanced ways of looking at worldwide conflict. The Star Trek of TOS and seasons 1-2 Ent and TNG allow me to believe that eventually what I have to teach might sink in.

If some folks want to use DS9 as a way to get people to think more deeply about war and conflict, and I choose to do that as my life's work, but not watch it on my tv at home--well, then, good. Getting the message out in multiple formats for folks that learn in different ways is all to the good.

 

[Anwar]

Angel4576 said:
Sounds like you may not have seen subsequent episodes. It was revealed that it was the Borg who made the initial incursion into fluidic space in order to assimilate Species 8472. Janeway of course didn't take the time to find this out at the time of signing up with the Borg. Why would she doubt the Borg though, they're such an honest, and impassive race....

She found out in the second episode of Scorpion and was PO'ed, which is probably why she didn't give the Borg the weapon. Didn't change the fact that the 8472 aliens proudly told them that they were going to kill everyone in existence, for all she knew they were always xenocidal and all the Borg did was give them the doorway to our universe.

Quite different from Ransom and the nucleonic aliens.

 

[Angel4576]

That's pretty much the point though, Janeway doesn't know either way at the time she went along with the Borg. She's what? Taken the Borg's word for it?

Arturis: "Did it ever occur to you that there were those of us in the Delta Quadrant with a vested interest in that war? Victory would have meant annihilation of the Borg, but you couldn't see beyond the bow of your own ship!"
Janeway: "In my estimation, Species 8472 posed a greater threat than the Borg."
Arturis: "Who are you to be make that decision, a stranger to this Quadrant?"

It's a fair question, and a fair point made. Janeway had no idea as to the extent or ramifications of the situation into which she thrust the ship. I thought In the Flesh made it fairly clear that before the Borg incursion into Fluidic space, Species 8472 had no interest in normal space.

Then there's The Swarm, "Can we come through your space? No? Well fcuk you we're doing it anyway....."

The less said about Alliances the better.

Janeway's interpretation of the prime directive is tenuous/dubious at best.