Why is DS9 the black sheep?

[Peach Wookiee]

^To be fair, Janeway was in a unique situation...

Back to DS9... I think it was ahead of its time. I didn't become a solid Niner until after 9/11. The whole war arc now... it's a lot more powerful.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ I still like that the first thing Starfleet did when Voyager got back was to put Janeway behind a desk! Safer for all concerned.

 

[Anwar]

Why? If she hadn't stopped the 8472 they'd have wiped out the Borg and then continued wiping out everyone else, INCLUDING Arturis' race. It's okay to wipe out the Borg but I don't see why everyone else should die for something they had nothing to do with.

The 8472 may have been attacked first, but that didn't justify them wanting to kill everyone else. That was the point of them saying "The weak will perish".

Sure, after realizing the normals had weapons that could hurt them they were willing to sit down and talk but before then there was no way to know they weren't anything but a bunch of uber-powerful xenocidal maniacs.

Then she helped save the time-space continuum from Annorax's time weapon. No telling what kind of damage he'd have continued to do with that thing.

She did important good things for the Quadrant, even if all the VOY-haters don't acknowledge it.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ Events of In the Flesh prove that 8472 were willing to negotiate a peace. Something that the Borg had never shown any signs of doing. Yet, without even a semblence of all the facts, Janeway decides that it's a great idea to help the Borg beat them? Based on what? Kes' psychic link? Later events (In the Flesh) proved that the 'The weak will perish' statement was not an absolute. Instead, better to trust in the race that posed the greatest threat in recent Federation history.

Janeway's actions in Scorpion also pre-empted 8472 to set up a training camp ahead of an infiltration attempt against Earth. Great stuff. Finally someone more powerful than the Borg and she practically invites them to come find Earth. gee, really lucky that they were able to stumble across it.

Which brings me on to the next point. If Janeway's managed to negotiate an understanding/truce with 8472, why wasn't she able to negotiate help in getting back to Earth? The fact that they were gearing up for an infiltration attempt on Earth suggests that they have faster means of getting there than Voyager does. Janeway leaves empty-handed and no closer to home. Well done. The art of diplomacy is alive and well.

Re Annorax, presumably the Delta Quadrant had ways of dealing with things prior to Voyager arriving on the scene. Or are we to believe that it was just pure luck that Voyager arrived just in the nick of time to intervene in those events? I'm sure the Borg would have sat around idly as people messed around with the space time continuum in their neck of the woods.

Let's also not forget her sterling diplomatic skills on display in Alliances, not to mention her blatent disregard of the Prime Directive.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

T'Baio said:
Yet it's treated like the red headed step child by Paramount and the powers that be.

It wasn't the least successful Trek by a long shot.

So what's up with that?

The show began the steep decline in Trek's ratings on television. That affected the studio's attitude toward it during the time it was on.

No one goes back later and says, "okay, it didn't live up to our expectations but things got so much worse later that we like it better now." They continue to look with favor on those shows that did meet or exceed their commercial expectations.

 

[Lilith]

indranee said:

Angel4576 said:

Lilith said:
Why can't we, just once, have an alien-species that's ahead of the Federation and isn't a money-grabbing, treacherous, slimy, destructive race?

Now that's a very good point!

err... uhmmm... we did. remember the Vulcans? the Trill? the Organians? to name but a few.

Yeah, but then what do we see in the episodes? Vulcans who have to draw on emotion to solve a problem/save a ship (ie. okay, Vulcan = cool, but human = cooler) and in the handful of DS9 episodes I saw, the Trill seemed more of a comic relief than anything else.

What I meant is that even with the species that are meant to be 'superior' or even on the same level as humans, are always portrayed as lacking a certain 'human quality' and, because of that, can't be really as cool as a human. I've always found that pretty egocentric of Trek (it goes for all series)

 

[Saxman1]

DS9 was treated like the black sheep from the get-go by the station that aired it here in Chicagoland, WGN. It was something they slapped on the schedule when the Cubs or Bulls weren't playing and I'm talking FIRST RUN. Some eps were never shown at all, or if they were, at 2 a.m., unannounced. That's a big reason I gave up on it toward the end of season three.

I've finally seen the entire series thanks to DVD and its difference to other Treks is one of it's biggest strengths, IMHO. It's one of the Treks I LOVE (TOS, TNG & DS9), not one of the ones I like (VOY, ENT).

 

[Anwar]

Angel4576 said:
^^ Events of In the Flesh prove that 8472 were willing to negotiate a peace. Something that the Borg had never shown any signs of doing. Yet, without even a semblence of all the facts, Janeway decides that it's a great idea to help the Borg beat them? Based on what? Kes' psychic link? Later events (In the Flesh) proved that the 'The weak will perish' statement was not an absolute. Instead, better to trust in the race that posed the greatest threat in recent Federation history.

Janeway's actions in Scorpion also pre-empted 8472 to set up a training camp ahead of an infiltration attempt against Earth. Great stuff. Finally someone more powerful than the Borg and she practically invites them to come find Earth. gee, really lucky that they were able to stumble across it.

Which brings me on to the next point. If Janeway's managed to negotiate an understanding/truce with 8472, why wasn't she able to negotiate help in getting back to Earth? The fact that they were gearing up for an infiltration attempt on Earth suggests that they have faster means of getting there than Voyager does. Janeway leaves empty-handed and no closer to home. Well done. The art of diplomacy is alive and well.

Re Annorax, presumably the Delta Quadrant had ways of dealing with things prior to Voyager arriving on the scene. Or are we to believe that it was just pure luck that Voyager arrived just in the nick of time to intervene in those events? I'm sure the Borg would have sat around idly as people messed around with the space time continuum in their neck of the woods.

Let's also not forget her sterling diplomatic skills on display in Alliances, not to mention her blatent disregard of the Prime Directive.

They had no way of communicating with the 8472 until "In the Flesh" where Janeway's actions had caused them to slow down their assault and decide to do things more subtly. So if she hadn't used the weapon to stop them, they never would have slowed down enough to be willing to sit down and talk things over.

It was their own fault for the "The weak shall perish" thing anyways. Talk about bad first impressions.

And she didn't trust the Borg, that was the point of the "Scorpion" thing with Chakotay and Seven at the end. They just needed their tech to make a weapon.

The 8472 apparently got their information on Earth from Borg databses they had raided, not because they had gone to Earth. (This is from the canon Trek Magazine, I believe)

Seeing as how Annorax had been messing with history for 200 years and no one had lifted a finger to stop him until VOY, I'd say yes, it was pure luck VOY was there to try to solve the problem. Anyone else who tried would've had their homeworld erased, but since VOY's world was so far away Annorax couldn't get there for over a century (the timeship only had a warp 5 or so speed). The Borg didn't do sh*t about such a powerful weapon so it was all up to VOY.

People keep saying that VOY should've tossed out the PD, so I don't see why everyone so PO'ed she did bend it in order to survive.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Angel4576 said:

GalaxyX said:
I think a lot of the hardcore DS9 fans are never going to admit any of it though, and will simply keep crying about how "Berman/Braga"
didn't give DS9 the backing it "so richly deserved"

Must DS9 fans are probably thanking their lucky stars about that, otherwise it could have ended up like Voyager/Enterprise, and the franchise could have died that much sooner.

Good grief YES!

I can certainly vouch for this much: in the DS9 forum you rarely hear anything but *relief* over the fact that B&B stayed the hell AWAY from DS9. Braga was not involved at all, and Berman was only marginally involved as he was busy running TNG, the TNG feature films, and VOY.

Most Niners are HAPPY about this. We are well aware of the fact that if Berman had had his way, the War arc...well, wouldn't have even existed...at least not in the form it did and with the power it did! Ira Behr states quite clearly in the DVD sets special features that he argued constantly with Berman about the issue of arc-based storytelling, and actually had to flat out IGNORE him on a few occasions (the final chapter, where you had an unbroken 10-episode arc, being one such occasion...and the occupation arc being another such occasion) just to get the story told without ruining it. He also says this in The DS9 Companion. There were a few occasions where he intentionally kept a low profile and didn't make unnecessary reports to Berman...until it was too late for Berman to interfere and...well...make it lame.

And knowing the PC-ness of the way Trek is run, and the party-line 'We are all very pleased' mantra that everyone involved in Trek is supposed to spew in lock-step unity when asked anything ( )...if Ira Behr admits to THIS much conflict, I'm sure the arguments between him and Berman were even worse than he has indicated.

Frankly, the best thing that ever happened to DS9 was the TNG films and VOY. Because they kept Berman happily occupied while Ira Behr was turning DS9 into a kick-ass good show.

Further, I think that DS9 is the only Trek show where alot of it's fans actually don't WANT a feature film made! You see alot of hard-core Niners (myself included) expressing FEAR over the prospect of a feature film - a fear that if one was made by the likes of Berman, it would, in one two-hour installment, completely RUIN the show we adore. Of course, a film will never be made based on DS9 so it's rather a moot point....but don't fool yourself for a moment that most DS9 fans see this lack of interest on the part of TPTB as a BAD thing. Because many of us would rather have NO film than have a crappy film. And many of us further believe that the recent management of the Trek Franchise almost precludes the production of a truly GOOD film - at least about DS9.

I thank my lucky stars every DAY that DS9 was 'the red-headed stepchild' of the franchise. If it hadn't been, it would have been...well....VOY. And while I actually like VOY a fair amount, it is IMO no DS9.

'Red-headed stepchildren', both IRL and on TV either sink from lack of support....or excel by virtue of shear will, determination, and extraordinary talent.

DS9 is no exception...which is why not only is it so heavily praised by critics...but also why it is holding up VERY well as they years go on - better than TNG for sure, and better than VOY, which is already largely forgotten.

It is rather interesting...but since ENT went off and people began searching for 'new' (to them) Trek, we have seen ALOT of DS9 newbies come to the DS9 forum...and in fairly short order begin making posts about how wonderful DS9 is...and how wrong they were to not give it a chance back when it was on.

This is nice...and we are glad to have them. But among Niners, the prevailing attitude is that frankly, we don't CARE that DS9 is the 'red-headed stepchild'. We have our DVD sets and can watch it whenever we like. And if Rick Berman wants to continue making moronic comments like "ENT is the first time Trek has ventured into the world of arc-based storytelling.", then LET him. All comments like that do is reinforce our view of just how LITTLE he even KNEW about DS9, even while it was going on!

And this, of course, was just FINE with us!

 

[Robert Maxwell]

According to Ron Moore's AOL posts (from years ago), the only people to blame any lousy writing on DS9 were the writers themselves. He swore up and down there was no "network interference" forcing them to make Ferengi episodes, or up the T&A or anything of that sort.

I think DS9 was the best Trek, mainly because it dared to break away from the formula TOS and TNG set before it. Unfortunately, it was still tied to that formula in a lot of ways, which limited storytelling possibilities. A good example is how Starfleet and the Federation remained basically "good" throughout the series' run. You had your lone nuts like Admiral Leyton, or those who joined the Maquis and were regarded as traitors, or Section 31 (which was basically disavowed even if the Federation didn't do much to stop them). In the end, the Federation remained solidly on the side of the "good guys," and there was always someone else to blame when the white hats got tainted. Section 31 was "rogue," Vreenak was killed by Garak, etc. I get the feeling those were limitations on the writers, even if they were only self-imposed.

I don't think DS9 suffered from studio interference so much as the writers not necessarily agreeing on what was important to show and what wasn't. The wild swings in quality and tone attest to that. In some ways, that was a strength. For building an arc-based show, though, it comes off as a weakness. According to RDM, though, DS9 was always an episodic show that occasionally slipped arcs in. I'm not sure how much of an authority he is, but his AOL posts and later BSG blogs seem to provide much more information than the other producers and writers have given us.

For the record, I still enjoy DS9 above all other flavors of Trek, warts and all.

 

[Angel4576]

Anwar said:
They had no way of communicating with the 8472 until "In the Flesh" where Janeway's actions had caused them to slow down their assault and decide to do things more subtly. So if she hadn't used the weapon to stop them, they never would have slowed down enough to be willing to sit down and talk things over.

It was their own fault for the "The weak shall perish" thing anyways. Talk about bad first impressions.

And she didn't trust the Borg, that was the point of the "Scorpion" thing with Chakotay and Seven at the end. They just needed their tech to make a weapon.

The 8472 apparently got their information on Earth from Borg databses they had raided, not because they had gone to Earth. (This is from the canon Trek Magazine, I believe)

Seeing as how Annorax had been messing with history for 200 years and no one had lifted a finger to stop him until VOY, I'd say yes, it was pure luck VOY was there to try to solve the problem. Anyone else who tried would've had their homeworld erased, but since VOY's world was so far away Annorax couldn't get there for over a century (the timeship only had a warp 5 or so speed). The Borg didn't do sh*t about such a powerful weapon so it was all up to VOY.

People keep saying that VOY should've tossed out the PD, so I don't see why everyone so PO'ed she did bend it in order to survive.

They only had no way to commuicate due to Kes' apparent one-way psychic link. The outcome of Janeway's actions in Scorpion were more due to luck rather than by design. There's no mention of Janeway intending to screw the Borg over until Seven takes them into Fluidic space in the second part. Up until that point Janeway makes it perfectly clear that they should honour their agreement with the Borg.

Up until the point where Janeway decides to side with the Borg, Species 8472 had only attacked Voyager after they crossed paths on a Borg ship.

Janeway clearly doesn't learn from history. As far as first contact situations go, did she just not remember how Humans met the Klingons? You'd have thought that she'd be at least a little sceptical of 8472's motives, despite the 'the weak shall perish' comments. For all she knew at that point, they may have been merely referring to the Borg, who up until that point, they'd crushed in every engagement.

Re: 8472 going to Earth, you missed the point. I didn't mean that they'd already been to Earth, simply that, like the Borg, they had access to methods of propulsion far beyond what the Federation had, and accordingly, when an agreement was reached with 8472 they could have requested help in getting home quicker.

Re Annorax, his changes spanned 200 years of history, but the changes were affected over a much shorter timeframe. Each alteration had to be meticulously calculated so as to have no negative effects on other events. Given that the Borg pretty much ran the DQ then it would only have been a matter of time before something impacted on them and they came looking.

The PD, they should have either thrown it out, or stuck to it. Instead we got Janeway's wishy washy attitude to it. It applied when it suited her case, didn't apply other times when it didn't.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ PK, great post.

God bless Ira Behr :thumbsup:

 

[Anwar]

Well, one I think it was UPN that messed up VOY and ENT far more than anything Berman ever did. Two you're right that him backing off from the show to manage VOY more directly (since it was a Network Flagship show and more noticed) left Behr more to his own devices.

Piller himself also said that people would appreciate DS9 more as time went on, and it was Piller who conviced Behr to come back to Trek on DS9 after he left TNG in S3. So I say Piller's just as responsible for DS9's success as Behr.

As for the 8472 thing, they were aware of VOY and that they weren't Borg (they saw into Kes' mind) yet they still attacked the VOY crew, the ship and sent their message. The implication being that they weren't just targetting the Borg.

I don't think they did have propulsion capable of going to Earth that easily, they were just thinking and planning REALLY long-term when they did the simulation thing on that base.

As for Annorax and the Borg, if he did make changes that affected the Borg the Borg wouldn't notice because they'd have been changed with the timeline. It was only because of the Temporal shields VOY developed they became immune. No one else had those so VOY really was the only hope.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ You're absolutely right re Mike Piller.

Re 8472, their first encounter was aboard a Borg ship. We don't know how much information 8472 had garnered from the Borg at that point. I think a fairly logical assumption may well be that they were allied to the Borg in some way.

Re propulsion, the Borg used transwarp conduits to traverse great distancs. 8472 appeared to be even more advanced than the Borg. It would be slightly naive to believe that their propulsion technology wouldn't be equally as advanced over the Borg than their weaponary was.

We don't really know what the effect of Annorax's alterations had on the Borg. Given the Borg's knowledge of temporal mechanics as witnessed by events in First Contact, and beyond it's quite clear that they have a firm grasp on how things worked. Again, to assume that they wouldn't have any form of temporal shielding is a little naive.

 

[ktanner3]

TheMasterOfOrion said:
DS9 had a great cast and some very good episodes

What was wrong with DeepSpaceNine :
It was a lot of a soap opera

I keep hearing this and I'm not getting it.All the shows save TOS had crew members in relatioships. The difference is that DS9 did them better. Unlike TNG and Voyager, DS9 relationships were properly developed over a long period of time and not forced in the last season. Did you really feel that Worf/Troi and Chakotay/Seven were believable?

Too much religion involved in the show

Oh no,some religion being depicted on the T.V screen! Blaphsemy! Bajoran religion was touched on in a handful of episodes. Big whoop. Do you really feel that religion disapears for all worlds in the next 500 years? Please.

DS9 destroyed 'Q'

MMMMkay..... Q was just as annoying as ever. Thank god he wasn't on the show more than once.Now if only they could have done the same thing for that other stupid TNG character Lwaxana Troi.There's another part DS9 did better than TNG,better recurring characters.

Runabouts during early Seasons were poor

Writing during early TNG seasons were poor. So what?

They spent too much time deconstructing the Gene Roddenbery

No they didn't. DS9 showed the rest of Roddenberry's universe, not just the happy go lucky world of the federation. A whole universe of federation types would be unrealistic.

primary characters had an identity crisis like teens with bad attitudes

Excuse me? Sisko,Bashir,Odo,Kira etc.. had defined roles that were more rich than any of the other Star Trek roles. Watch Season 3 of TOS or the TNG movies and get back to me on characters with identity crises.

Rich story ideas only came in the later seasons

Bullshit.

The Pilot,In the hands of the phrophets, Duet,The Nagus, The circle trilogy,The Maquis 1&2(which by the way was used as a backstory for Voyager) The Oath,The Jem'hadar,The way of the warrior,The Visitor,The die is cast,etc.... I'd put those up against any of the other series.

It's originality has been questioned, JMS pitched to Paramount before WarnerBros
Even after setting sail DS-9 still borrowed heavily from Babylon-5

TOS borrowed from old science fiction ideas that had been around forever and were based of story ideas of science fiction writers.And I watched Babylon 5.DS9 is nothing like it.

The CGI effects dated quicker than StarTrek TOS FX, Odo effects etc now look terrible

TOS and TNG. Talk about dated effects.

Kera acting all butch/feminist and her bitchy demeanor just weirded fans out.

Kira was acting just like a person would act if her homeworld had been occupied by a violent oppressor.And since when did Trek fans not like feminists? I suppose the way females were depicted on the TOS was better?

It was very war orientated unlike Roddenberry's vision

You got me there. Roddenberry's crazy and unrealistic idea that all problems can be solved by signing a piece of paper was not present in this show. Thank goodness. :thumbsup:

DS9 had already passed it's prime by the seventh season

Nope. It was still entertaining and still had good shows. TNG and Voyager on the other hand.....

 

[PKTrekGirl]

ktanner3 said:

DS9 destroyed 'Q'

MMMMkay..... Q was just as annoying as ever. Thank god he wasn't on the show more than once.Now if only they could have done the same thing for that other stupid TNG character Lwaxana Troi.There's another part DS9 did better than TNG,better recurring characters.

I'll not comment on the rest of your post...but since I came within a hair's breath of commenting on this Q reference myself, I thought I'd chime in now.

It is patently absurd to say that DS9 'destroyed' Q. Q was in exactly ONE episode of DS9 (and was not even in all of the scenes - so figure less than 30 minutes of screen time as a GENEROUS estimate), and most of it was centered on his relationship with Vash...something that was very much a carryover from TNG. In fact, I find that episode to be pretty forgettable, really - the ONLY interesting occurrence being that Sisko punched him. Which really said more about Sisko than about Q....so I'm not sure why that would 'destroy' a character.

I would really love to hear how, exactly, DS9 was able to 'destroy' Q in less than 30 minutes of screen time, most of those minutes consumed with Q and another character from TNG and not with characters from DS9.

 

[jayrath]

Back to the original question: After a few episodes I could not keep track of the frigging soap opera. It was difficult to reengage in the drama later, and so I just left it (and all Trek) behind for a time.

Most seem to enjoy long story arcs. That's great! I do not.

Also, new life and new frontiers always seemed to me to be at odds with a series set in a static location. Space stations? Naw. Starships? You bet!

 

[Angel4576]

^^ Part of Q's charm was always the sparring relationship he had with Picard, which started out adversarial and even hostile, and though the course of seven seasons worked it's way up to a relationship of a certain mutual respect.

The character of Q evolved, starting out as a threat, before becoming comic effect, and ultimately, a mature well-rounded dramatic player. Episodes like Tapestry and All Good Things show the finished article in terms of the relationship between Q and Picard.

Personally, I don't think they should ever have moved the character (Q) onto another series after TNG. He was a character perfectly in-tune for that series, and one that subsequently never worked on either DS9 or Voyager IMO.

To say that DS9 killed Q is a nonsense statement. It's not that either DS9 or Voyager killed the character, the character would never work on DS9 or Voyager in the same way that it did on TNG, and that's neither of the latter shows' fault, it's just the way it was.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

ktanner3 said:

TheMasterOfOrion said:
It was very war orientated unlike Roddenberry's vision

You got me there. Roddenberry's crazy and unrealistic idea that all problems can be solved by signing a piece of paper was not present in this show. Thank goodness. :thumbsup:

Even then, WHICH GR are we talking about? TOS Gene, who had no problem with lines like "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat..." and "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank..." and whose Starfleet didn't even blink when HQ asked them to conduct war games exercises?

Or are we talking about TNG Gene, the burned out (and perhaps emotionally disturbed) "Partron Saint of the Perfect Federation People", also known as "He-who-read-too-many-of-his-own-press-articles"...

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

btw, Gene's original idea for the Borg was going to be a big enemy that forced the Federation, Romulans, and Klingons to team up (hence that plotline at the end of TNG S1 about mysterious attacks on the Neutral Zone) to defeat them. Sound familiar? So if the Dominion attack had been a 2 parter instead of a 2 year storyline, that would have been okay in terms of Gene's vision?