Why is Admiral Vance's uniform reminiscent of General Burkhalter's/German uniforms during WWII?
Why is Admiral Vance's uniform...
- Thread starter Arpy
- Start date
It's just the color scheme.
Look at any sci-fi uniform design and you can find historical parallels somewhere.
I don't believe there is any significance to this whatsoever.
I don't believe there is any significance to this whatsoever.
I think it less likely that the designer put together this design without some thought of the earlier uniform, conscious or not. The question becomes "does it mean anything?"
Firstly, designers like to work with their own concepts and ideas. Secondly, yes, I'm quite happy that they likely did put it together with some thoughts of many different previous uniforms, but that was mostly previous iterations of Starfleet uniforms, as well as incorporating elements of the design features of the other new "current" 3189 uniforms for a look that is part of an overall "whole" for the new era.
They have thrown a lot of effort at this: episode 3x05, "Die Trying" probably has more individual different Starfleet uniform variants in one single production than has been seen since The Motion Picture...!
I understand how the connection as been made and I, too, can see the superficial similarities with the WW2 German general officer uniform but I truly believe that it would be a case of seeing "two-plus-two" and reaching an answer of "five" (or even more!) to assume that similarity equals causation or intent!
If you're looking for similarities and heritage, try these:
They have thrown a lot of effort at this: episode 3x05, "Die Trying" probably has more individual different Starfleet uniform variants in one single production than has been seen since The Motion Picture...!
I understand how the connection as been made and I, too, can see the superficial similarities with the WW2 German general officer uniform but I truly believe that it would be a case of seeing "two-plus-two" and reaching an answer of "five" (or even more!) to assume that similarity equals causation or intent!
If you're looking for similarities and heritage, try these:
Beyond being uniforms that have grey and red in their colour scheme they don't really resemble each other.
As others have stated, it's just the colors, which sadly, grey and red often times get conflated with such (I know from a lot of research). I doubt it means anything.
That's from Hogan's Heroes. It's an old show. It ended 50 years ago. This is a different generation of costume designers, not familiar with the show. I had to click on the image to know what you were talking about. And, yeah, I've seen some episodes of Hogan's Heroes -- meaning a few at most, on TV Land -- but it's not something I grew up with.
Star Trek isn't like other shows from the '60s. It's constantly having series and films added to it, keeping it in collective consciousness longer and more prominently than it would've been if it were just the episodes of TOS.
Cronenberg is the real person to look out for.
"Gray" means "future" to a lot of people. So these uniforms are gray. Under the TNG color-scheme, which they're still using here, "Red" means "Command". So that's how you get the red/gray combination. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. "Yeah, but it can't be!" It is.
Admiral Vance is the new Admiral Ross or Admiral Cornwell. The Admiral who we'll regularly see. Maybe he'll do some shady stuff, but he'll never leave the gray areas. He's not going to be some black-hatted villain.
Last edited:
It’s not about being familiar with the old show Hogan’s Heroes. That’s just funny. It’s about the similarity to the real life German uniform.
Fashion designers at a Trek level would likely be familiar with military uniforms from many cultures over much time. That this uniform is harkened here is curious to me.
it’s not just gray but a specific and rare blue-green tinted gray. Along with the black and red and gold, the epaulettes and collar and its rank insignias and the high black boots and overall martial look, one could imagine this a later version of that uniform if the Reich had lasted a couple centuries. Even the detached yoke maybe suggests the multilayer look of the overcoat in the German design.
So far Vance isn’t a black hat, but I wonder if whether a) that will change, b) this was a subtle design trick to make him more intimidating, or c) the designer just liked the design from previous study and used in here.
Last edited:
If nothing else, it's probably just a false flag. But, I think it's just a color the designers liked.
It's Pub O'Clock on a Friday and I love cigars- see you later!
It reminded me of the denim Into Darkness dress uniforms. Stands to reason a Starfleet who spent "most of the last century" in war would have harsher costuming.
Honestly, I think any association with WW2 German uniforms is really, really over-thinking this!
The have picked grey instead of the black previously used by Starfleet because they wanted a lighter, brighter, more furturistic look. Overall, 3189 Starfleet has been given a very similar vibe to 2001: A Space Odyssey and ST:TMP.
Red they have used for Command because the are broadly following the department colours established from TNG onwards: they also have yellow (presumably for Operations), blue (presumably for Sciences), and appear to have added white for Medical (following the pattern set in Discovery but also previously seen for the clinical uniforms in TMP and also the later movies) and, if Lt Willa and her team are anything to go by, black (or very very dark grey
) for Security.
I'm really very confident that the combination of grey and red is entirely dependent on this and not much else.
The have picked grey instead of the black previously used by Starfleet because they wanted a lighter, brighter, more furturistic look. Overall, 3189 Starfleet has been given a very similar vibe to 2001: A Space Odyssey and ST:TMP.
Red they have used for Command because the are broadly following the department colours established from TNG onwards: they also have yellow (presumably for Operations), blue (presumably for Sciences), and appear to have added white for Medical (following the pattern set in Discovery but also previously seen for the clinical uniforms in TMP and also the later movies) and, if Lt Willa and her team are anything to go by, black (or very very dark grey
) for Security.I'm really very confident that the combination of grey and red is entirely dependent on this and not much else.
Last edited:
Plot twist: Admiral Vance is evil.
Oh, wait, at this point it's more surprising if a Starfleet Admiral isn't the villain, isn't it?
Oh, wait, at this point it's more surprising if a Starfleet Admiral isn't the villain, isn't it?
I don’t think it’s this. Again, it isn’t “gray.” It isn’t Admiral Clancy’s uniform or say the cadet uniforms in VOY. It’s a specific German blue-green gray. That along with the handful of other colors/touches mentioned above together make this likely less than a random pallet/choice.Honestly, I think any association with WW2 German uniforms is really, really over-thinking this!
The have picked grey instead of the black previously used by Starfleet because they wanted a lighter, brighter, more furturistic look. Overall, 3189 Starfleet has been given a very similar vibe to 2001: A Space Odyssey and ST:TMP.
Red they have used for Command because the are broadly following the department colours established from TNG onwards: they also have yellow (presumably for Operations), blue (presumably for Sciences), and appear to have added white for Medical (following the pattern set in Discovery but also previously seen for the clinical uniforms in TMP and also the later movies) and, if Lt Willa and her team are anything to go by, black (or very very dark grey
I'm really very confident that the combination of grey and red is entirely dependent on this and not much else.
I’m more inclined to think it’s a design that the designer admired and found opportunity to include at this point in their career. That’s the best case scenario.
Anyone know who the designer is or what their other work includes?
If you're looking for similarities and heritage, try these:
These unis need hats.
The costume designer for Discovery is Gersha Philips.
Honestly, I truly think you're barking up the wrong tree with this -- and you're basing your theory on a 1960s American TV show costume, recreating a 1940s uniform. The fact that the shades of grey happen to be similar in the two images you have picked is really not that significant.
It's not so much the grey colour of Clancy's uniform that I was pointing out as the transition of some of the design features from one iteration to the next -- if you're looking for lineage, that's more likely to be it.
But I accept that this is your theory and you want to stick with. Fair enough; so I'll bow out.
Honestly, I truly think you're barking up the wrong tree with this -- and you're basing your theory on a 1960s American TV show costume, recreating a 1940s uniform. The fact that the shades of grey happen to be similar in the two images you have picked is really not that significant.
It's not so much the grey colour of Clancy's uniform that I was pointing out as the transition of some of the design features from one iteration to the next -- if you're looking for lineage, that's more likely to be it.
But I accept that this is your theory and you want to stick with. Fair enough; so I'll bow out.
Similar threads
