Why go to Genesis in TSFS?

[Anticitizen]

Re: The Katra Thing

So the question that is raised is:

What normally happens to the katra when a Vulcan dies? Is there some sort of Katra storage facility on Mt. Seleya?

 

[Alrik]

Re: The Katra Thing

I never really cared for this concept. Yes, I know it was a gimmick to bring Spock back, but the implications are staggering: If the Katra truly exists, then how could any Vulcan within proximity of a Katra host ever die?

Seems like all the Vulcans would be seeking immortality by finding a Katra host only to be reintegrated into either a fresh body or someone elses!

But the movie made it clear that the fal tor pan refusion of a katra with a living body had "not been performed since ancient times, and then only in legend." It established that this was at best an extremely difficult procedure, only possible in the rarest of circumstances.

After all, we saw what happens when a katra is placed in a body that already possesses an independent personality (McCoy's, in this case): the two minds struggle for control, endangering the sanity of the host. It couldn't work in the long term. The only way a katra could be successfully resurrected in a living body is if that body were mindless, devoid of a functioning personality of its own. How often is that going to happen? Spock's situation was unique.

And even if some kind of cloning process could be used to create new bodies, it still wouldn't be a sure thing; the movie dealt with that as well by making it clear that the procedure was dangerous to the participants and not guaranteed to succeed. It required a highly adept Vulcan Master to work for a whole night to get it right, and even then it was imperfect, since Spock needed months of re-education afterward. There aren't enough top-level Masters on the planet to resurrect everyone even if it were a safe and reliable process.

That and it appears that the transfer of the Katra is only suposed to be temporary. Once the body and the carrier of the Katra have been returned to Vulcan, the Katra can be removed and placed in the Hall of Ancient Thought.

 

[Christopher]

Re: The Katra Thing

So the question that is raised is:

What normally happens to the katra when a Vulcan dies? Is there some sort of Katra storage facility on Mt. Seleya?

According to the novels, it's called the Hall of Ancient Thought (I believe Vonda McIntyre's novelization of ST III introduced the term). Presumably the katras are stored in something analogous to the katric ark used to hold Surak's katra in the ENT Vulcan trilogy. (In the past, I always imagined globes like those used to hold Sargon et al.'s consciousnesses in "Return to Tomorrow.")

 

[Timo]

Re: The Katra Thing

The novels (said novelization, and the Dillard "Lost Years" story et al.) also suggest the possibility that storage of the katra in this fashion is something reserved for special cases: for respected luminaries, or for dangerous subversives. The katra may also be "released to the winds". Different family traditions would no doubt exist, and one might argue that Sarek would represent a highly traditionalist family line (they had their own ancient pon farr arena at a prestigious location and all) even if he were something of a renegade and pervert in his own lifestyle choices... So the tradition in this case might indeed call for the preservation of the katra, even though a modernist view on the matter would be that nothing would be lost by letting Spock's katra go to the winds.

Indeed, Spock himself might never have wanted to preserve his katra forever; depositing it in McCoy might have been a temporary measure only.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Search4]

Interesting how a simple question morphs to discuss Vulcan philosophy...

Spock left his katra at a time when he was certain he would not survive. It seemed routine and took a short time (remarkably short, actually. Great bandwidth!).

Doesn't it make more sense to 'always' deposit it? Wouldn't living hosts be the best choice instead of a little trinket? So a Vulcan army goes into battle and doesn't deposit their katras?

Some guesses:
1. Perhaps Vulcans, not humans, can take "two katras" more easily.

2. Refusion is clearly rare and not expected, for many reasons (no living, mindless body). But katra deposit and transit... that is more likely to be routine and a routine part of "taking a dangerous job".

3. Sarek expected Spock to leave a katra behind. Why? There are many many circumstances where that might not have happened

4. We have seen many Vulcans who have been in combat or in danger who didn't conveniently use a katra-container of any type. Just focusing on characters created after this movie, I'm sure Tuvok and T'Pol were "in danger" many times but didn't go around storing anything ahead of times.

Or perhaps its routine to keep a "katra battery" and update it once a day! Gosh, i would if possible.

 

[Timo]

Supposedly, a "katra backup" would not allow a Vulcan of a risky profession to actually prolong or protect his or her life, as the recombining of katra and body would not be a common technique, and would supposedly require both an intact katra and a living but katra-free body. Whether Vulcans would still prefer to keep up-to-date katras stored somewhere, as a nice memory of themselves or something, is an interesting issue.

Perhaps donating one's katra leaves one somehow empty? That is, it's not copy-and-paste but cut-and-paste. Creating "backups" would then make no sense. This would assume that Spock was running on fumes when discussing life and death with Kirk during his final minutes, of course - but this is a distinct possibility.

One also wonders if Spock's regenerated body in ST3 really was "katra-free" or if the recombining ceremony somehow squashed a young katra in favor of reinserting that of an old man.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[David cgc]

Well, I suppose that last bit depends on what McCoy was going on when he said the reborn Spock's mind was "a void." I'm kind of hoping the tricorder was involved at some point, and it wasn't just based on the fact that he didn't know how to talk.

I guess it's arguable that reborn Spock was operating purely on muscle memory, in that he knew how to walk, eat, defend women from Klingon brutes, and take care of his pon farr. These aren't exactly the most sophisticated actions he could take.

 

[guardian]

The real reason.............

The movie was re-edited after filming.
As filmed and wriiten the first scene of the movie is the grissom finding 'Spock's tube intact' on the surface.

Kirk's original V.O. says, "...the discovery of spock's tube has shaken me"

So Kirk knew all along that the tube was intact on the surface and once he knew of the katra in McCoy thing AND Sarek's wish that the body be interred on Vulcan---it was clear, recover the body and put Spock's Katra in 'The Hall of anchient Thougt (another editing loss)

They also cut a scene, in the BOP, where saavik explains that the plan was to put the Katra in the Hall of Anchient thought. and that although spock's body was alive, the Fal-tor -pan ritual was very rare and dangerous.

In editing they lost track of all this exposition and just let the fans go for the ride without proper explanations of why they were going to genesis.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

there should be a novel about some insane guy/Vulcan who goes to the katra storage facility and tries to transfer all the great Vulcan katra into android bodies (like that TOS episode "Return to Tomorrow")

 

[Basill]

I agree the idea of using the katra as a means of backing up one's personal HD for continued life would not only be morally objectionable to a Vulcan, but would also only create more problems than it solves. Two Katra's in one head would at best lead to schizophrenic Vulcans. I always thought of the Ancient Hall of Thought as a place one could go and maybe meditate, allowing one's mind to touch some of the ancestor's wisdom that manages to survive into that phase of Vulcan existence. The thought might not be consciousness itself and thus may still qualify as death, but is a useful resource nonetheless.

As to the Fal-tor-pan, I've always thought the Refusion was not only rare and dangerous but required far more resources than one might initially think. Did anyone else ever think that a significant portion of the Vulcan population was involved in the Fal-tor-pan, not to mention noticeable meteorological phenomena? Though T'Lar was the Master and obvious conduit for the ritual, it appeared Saavik and Sarek were deeply involved in some psychic way, and I've always thought the lightning was being stirred by a huge number of minds focusing on a single outcome. We know Vulcan thoughts can reach across fairly vast distances (i.e. Spock's reaction to the Intrepid's end in "The Immunity Syndrome") so their mind strength is unquestionable. Imagine the whole planet or at the very least a large portion of Mt. Selaya's spiritual populace, which had obviously gathered for this event, all mind melding and linking to help make the transition possible.

 

[Kryton]

The real reason: If they didn't make a stop at Genesis, they'd have to pay a booking fee.

Nofee doesn't like it when people pay booking fees. Makes him ... angry.

 

[Timo]

As to the Fal-tor-pan, I've always thought the Refusion was not only rare and dangerous but required far more resources than one might initially think.

Umm, yes. For one thing, it required a Genesis planet!

I mean, how else would one get hold of a living body that didn't have a katra already inside? Only a Vulcan facing certain death would dump his or her mental innards on some outside vessel, and such Vulcans would seldom be wrong about the certainty of the impending death...

One would also assume the body had to be compatible. Not any random car crash victim would suffice, even if we accepted that this "lack of katra" thing was something as crude and simple as being braindead. Quite possibly the only possible receptor body would be the exact original one...

Okay, perhaps one could use a perfect clone, and thus dump one's katra to a younger version of oneself over and over again. Perhaps some Vulcans do? That was more or less the desire of one of the old Vulcan bigwigs preserved in the Hall of Ancient Thought in Dillard's novel: to confiscate a young body and life his life again through that body. But such a thing might simply not be fashionable. Or then most katra transfers are woefully incomplete, and only the greatest Kolinahr students from the best-bred families (read: Spock) manage to transfer near-intact katras that can serve as useful templates for a second life.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Basill]

Well, I guess I should have been more specific. I was actually thinking in terms of the clone thing and why it would be less than desirable even if there was another living "empty receptacle." I clearly didn't stress that enough. The reformed Spock was indeed a rare event and thus warranted consideration of the procedure, but I guess I was trying to focus on what a burden it actually could have been for more than just the few people that were visible on screen, making it quite the Vulcan hot potato under normal circumstances, even if you had 10 cloned copies of yourself on ice in the basement.

But I also like your idea that katra transfers are not all so pretty and clean as a download to the flash drive, something I was trying to highlight in my impression of the Hall of Ancient Thought. Only those strong and skillful enough would be able to master that transfer, and even after the fact there would need to be upkeep and maintenance by the "people of the order," for lack of a better term. Visiting this Hall might be a more powerful exerience than leaving artificial flowers on your mother's tombstone, but it is still missing something "complete." This is what I was saying that it still qualifies as death. The Hall is not some rest home for disembodied spirits, aware and conscious of their surroundings that one can simple converse with by visiting the Hall. Only those equally strong in the mental disciplines would be able to gather anything useful from this encounter; an echo of wisdom during meditation, perhaps when one needs it most.