Why go to Genesis in TSFS?

[Search4]

Sorry, overthinking this a bit too much, i know the answer is 'because they wrote it'. But in-universe...

Spock is dead, his katra is in McCoy's head. Okay.

Why would that katra or McCoy want to go to Genesis? Why not to Vulcan to Mt. Seleya instead, where its supposed to go? Isn't that where all of the other katras end up?

Certainly other "dead Vulcans" don't rush off to Genesis?

At the time the katra was transferred, Spock was -not- yet dead (sounds like a Monty Python movie). Okay. Spock dies, the torpedo goes to the new planet, the body reborns. So how would the katra know anything about this and send McCoy to Genesis, rather than Vulcan?

To add insult to injury: how did KIRK know anything about that and go to Genesis as opposed to Vulcan? To retrieve a month-old dead body? Supposed Sarek had found Spock's katra in Kirk, where he expected it to be. Would they than also have gone to Genesis?

'nuff said. Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Butters]

'You left me Jim, on Genesis, why did you do that?'

'Mutara restricted, takes permits many, money more...'

Bone's knew he had to go the Genesis Planet because of Spock in his head. Kirk was only helping Bones do what he had to. I just assumed Spock thought his corpse would be revived on Vulcan because his consciousness had been saved prior to death. Bit like making a back-up when you know a system failure is about happen.

 

[Timo]

I'm far from convinced that Spock, when depositing his essence in McCoy, would already have known or even suspected that his body would be left on, and regenerated on, the Genesis planet.

However, I'm quite ready to believe that Spock's regenerated body would be able to beckon for his essence across interstellar distances, much like Spock sensed life-and-death matters across vast distances in "Immunity Syndrome" and perhaps in "All Our Yesterdays".

Alternately, Spock's essence inside McCoy's head might have been fairly active, and would have worked out these things all by itself, after seeing through McCoy's eyes that the body had ended up on Genesis.

As for Kirk agreeing that Genesis was the place to go, well, he probably did have a nagging idea or two. He had spoken of "life from death" at the closing moments of ST2 already, after all. And no doubt he carefully listened in on Starfleet reports coming from the Grissom, and was aware that Spock's coffin had soft-landed and Spock's body had apparently done a disappearing trick all on its own. Going to Vulcan wouldn't occur to him, then.

Sarek of course originally thought that Kirk should go to Vulcan to deposit the katra rattling inside the Captain's head. But once he learned the full extent of Spock's fate, he readily went for the other plan, which involved retrieving the possibly-revigorated body first. When both Sarek and Spock/McCoy were saying Genesis, it's no wonder Kirk went there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

A crucial thing to keep in mind: Nobody knew that Spock's body had been regenerated until they got to Genesis, and nobody was proposing refusion until they got to Vulcan with the regenerated, mindless Spock. Sarek asked Kirk to bring Spock's body and katra to Vulcan, but at the time, they assumed that body would be dead and no refusion would be possible. Sarek was speaking in terms of both the body and the katra finding peace. As far as the katra goes, he was thinking about its installment in the Hall of Ancient Thought. As for the body, maybe that's just a Vulcan ritual belief, that a body needs a proper burial on Vulcan. However logical they claim to be, we've seen references to Vulcan gods and temples (in "Yesteryear" and a VGR episode), and it's clear from "Amok Time" and TSFS that they're a people very driven by ritual.

Alternatively, maybe the transfer of the katra to the Hall of Ancient Thought is a process that needs the body somehow, perhaps as a reference point for the neural structure of the individual's mind or as some kind of conduit for the transfer.

As for the things McCoy said to Kirk when channeling Spock: okay, maybe the Spock in him intuited that the regeneration and refusion were possible. Or maybe the motive there was the same as Sarek's: to retrieve the body for proper burial according to Vulcan custom.

 

[Butters]

I'm far from convinced that Spock, when depositing his essence in McCoy, would already have known or even suspected that his body would be left on, and regenerated on, the Genesis planet.

However, I'm quite ready to believe that Spock's regenerated body would be able to beckon for his essence across interstellar distances, much like Spock sensed life-and-death matters across vast distances in "Immunity Syndrome" and perhaps in "All Our Yesterdays".

Alternately, Spock's essence inside McCoy's head might have been fairly active, and would have worked out these things all by itself, after seeing through McCoy's eyes that the body had ended up on Genesis.

As for Kirk agreeing that Genesis was the place to go, well, he probably did have a nagging idea or two. He had spoken of "life from death" at the closing moments of ST2 already, after all. And no doubt he carefully listened in on Starfleet reports coming from the Grissom, and was aware that Spock's coffin had soft-landed and Spock's body had apparently done a disappearing trick all on its own. Going to Vulcan wouldn't occur to him, then.

Sarek of course originally thought that Kirk should go to Vulcan to deposit the katra rattling inside the Captain's head. But once he learned the full extent of Spock's fate, he readily went for the other plan, which involved retrieving the possibly-revigorated body first. When both Sarek and Spock/McCoy were saying Genesis, it's no wonder Kirk went there.

Timo Saloniemi

I'm not sure anyone suspected Spock's body would regenerate, the torpedo shouldn't have survived the descent from orbit but it softlanded because gravitional fields were influx etc.

I'm temped to believe Spock was fighting Bone's for control, especially with the 'Scanning, indications negative at this time' line. Spock/Bones hoped the body would be there and intact, that it had regenerated was a bonus. Shame they couldn't have got there sooner and had a full lifespan.

 

[tranya]

Christopher's interpretation is what I've assumed for many years — and, I believe, what was intimated by Vonda McIntyre in the novelization. Timo's interpretation is certainly creative (Timo rarely has a problem with coming up with inventive ideas), but doesn't have a basis in anything seen on screen or in print that I know about.

 

[JNG]

Sorry, overthinking this a bit too much, i know the answer is 'because they wrote it'.

No need for apologies...what the heck kind of a forum would we have if people were only willing to think as far as "because they wrote it?"

 

[Anticitizen]

I've always wondered that myself. I've always considered it a gaping plot hole that weakened the film. Perhaps if word had been relayed back to Starfleet from Grissom that a humanoid life form was detected on the planet, and Kirk went on a hunch...

Another thing that bugged me was that Admiral Kirk, Director of Fleet Operations, couldn't muster the clout necessary to get permission and transport to Genesis. You'd think he could pull one of his TMP pulls of rank. Remember 'I'm headed for a meeting with Admiral Nogura that will not last more than three minutes'?

 

[blueziggy]

according to how the story was first written, Grissom arriving at the planet and discovering the empty tube happened before the Enterprise returned to Spacedock. in fact, the reason why Kirk is so distraught when they are heading to Spacedock is because of the news of Spocks tube being found empty. when they cut the film though, they put parts in a different order.

 

[Timo]

Kirk had a hunch at the end of ST2 already. Right or wrong, and without understanding the finer points of Vulcan rituals, he might have been working on the basis of that when going for Spock's body.

And I sort of doubt he remained Chief of Fleet Ops at that time. Commandant of the Academy, perhaps? Getting any information out of the secret Genesis survey would probably already require calling all the favors he could.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rÿcher]

Sarek: One alive, one not. Yet both in pain.

Kirk: What must I do?

Sarek: You must bring them to Mount Selaya on Vulcan. Only there can both find peace.

Kirk: What you ask is difficult.

Sarek: You will find a way, Kirk. If you honor them both, you must.

 

[Anticitizen]

according to how the story was first written, Grissom arriving at the planet and discovering the empty tube happened before the Enterprise returned to Spacedock. in fact, the reason why Kirk is so distraught when they are heading to Spacedock is because of the news of Spocks tube being found empty. when they cut the film though, they put parts in a different order.

Well, that explains it.

 

[Christopher]

^^Indeed. In the novel and comic adaptations, the story opens with the Grissom discovering Spock's torpedo tube. In the original script, Kirk's line in the log entry was "The news of Spock's tube is like an open wound," rather than "The death of Spock is like...."

However, in the final cut, the discovery of the intact tube does precede Sarek's arrival, doesn't it? So it's still possible that the Grissom's report of that discovery could've prompted Sarek to come to Kirk and urge him to bring Spock's body home for a proper burial, setting the rest of the story in motion.

 

[Anticitizen]

It would've only taken a few lines to fix. The Captain Esteban was adamant about sending any little bit of information to Starfleet for orders on what to do next. There's no way he didn't relay that back home. The Klingons didn't start jamming the transmission until they actually found young Spock. It stretches credulity to think that Kirk and co. stole a starship just to retrieve a dead body.

 

[MarianLH]

For that matter, the film actually shows him telling Starfleet that Spock's tube has been located.


Marian

 

[Search4]

Good answers. I don't believe there's a reason a katra needs a body (easy to imagine lots of circumstances where bodies are not recoverable) but maybe its a Vulcan custom or something. Clearly they edited it poorly and it would have been better if Kirk knew there was a "living" Spock somewhere... all the more reason to go there directly.

But McCoy/katra knowing this stretches all credibility. Oh well.

 

[QuasarVM]

The Katra Thing

Ok...about this katra thing...

I never really cared for this concept. Yes, I know it was a gimmick to bring Spock back, but the implications are staggering: If the Katra truly exists, then how could any Vulcan within proximity of a Katra host ever die?

Seems like all the Vulcans would be seeking immortality by finding a Katra host only to be reintegrated into either a fresh body or someone elses!



Am I the only one to consider this?

 

[Search4]

They're very polite, they wouldn't do that.
Or perhaps thats why they were overly emotional and aggressive - to get a "host body".

 

[Captain Zog]

Makes absolutely no sense, OP. It wasn't really that well thought out.

 

[Christopher]

Re: The Katra Thing

I never really cared for this concept. Yes, I know it was a gimmick to bring Spock back, but the implications are staggering: If the Katra truly exists, then how could any Vulcan within proximity of a Katra host ever die?

Seems like all the Vulcans would be seeking immortality by finding a Katra host only to be reintegrated into either a fresh body or someone elses!

But the movie made it clear that the fal tor pan refusion of a katra with a living body had "not been performed since ancient times, and then only in legend." It established that this was at best an extremely difficult procedure, only possible in the rarest of circumstances.

After all, we saw what happens when a katra is placed in a body that already possesses an independent personality (McCoy's, in this case): the two minds struggle for control, endangering the sanity of the host. It couldn't work in the long term. The only way a katra could be successfully resurrected in a living body is if that body were mindless, devoid of a functioning personality of its own. How often is that going to happen? Spock's situation was unique.

And even if some kind of cloning process could be used to create new bodies, it still wouldn't be a sure thing; the movie dealt with that as well by making it clear that the procedure was dangerous to the participants and not guaranteed to succeed. It required a highly adept Vulcan Master to work for a whole night to get it right, and even then it was imperfect, since Spock needed months of re-education afterward. There aren't enough top-level Masters on the planet to resurrect everyone even if it were a safe and reliable process.