Why does the Grand Nagus travel by shuttle?
- Thread starter MatthiasRussell
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Yeah, every culture has its deviants. That doesn't mean the Ferengi as a whole are violent -- or, rather, are as violent, and violent in the same ways, as modern Humans. Specifically, there's no evidence of a history of assassinations in their political systems, nor of warfare with foreign states.
Some of the extremely violent types like Bok are not typical. But willing to use violence and kill innocents is. When Bok tried to convince Picard he was killing his lost son, Picard only defeated Bok by showing his crew that there was no profit in their actions. This was in season 7, while DS9 was on the air.
Bok's son attacked the Stargazer unprovoked while in the Ferengi military. The Ferengi fought with the Enterprise for Tkon technology. In TNG, the Ferengi were described as priveteers. Sure, DS9 revamped the Ferengi some-what but both images of the Ferengi are valid. the priveteers of TNG and the greedy run-away capitolists of DS9 easily go together.
One rule of aquisition says waris good for business. the one after that says peace is good for business. Perhaps during the time of TNG/DS9, Zek changed Ferengi foreign policy realizing that peace was better for business. However, he was still the Nagus while the Ferengi were aggresive toward the UFP; as such, he would have condoned the aggressive tacktics of priveteer captains and shared in their profits.
Zek was a cut throat business man who didn't care if people died for the sake of personal gain.
Bok's son attacked the Stargazer unprovoked while in the Ferengi military. The Ferengi fought with the Enterprise for Tkon technology. In TNG, the Ferengi were described as priveteers. Sure, DS9 revamped the Ferengi some-what but both images of the Ferengi are valid. the priveteers of TNG and the greedy run-away capitolists of DS9 easily go together.
One rule of aquisition says waris good for business. the one after that says peace is good for business. Perhaps during the time of TNG/DS9, Zek changed Ferengi foreign policy realizing that peace was better for business. However, he was still the Nagus while the Ferengi were aggresive toward the UFP; as such, he would have condoned the aggressive tacktics of priveteer captains and shared in their profits.
Zek was a cut throat business man who didn't care if people died for the sake of personal gain.
Yes, I've already pointed out that there is some history of violence in Ferengi culture and that Quark is glossing over this in "The Jem'Hadar." But the fact remains that even with those incidents, the evidence is that Ferengi culture is as a whole less overtly violent than modern Human culture, and that there's no evidence of a history of organized state warfare against foreign states nor of political assassinations, within Ferengi culture.
Grand Nagus Zek (and Martok) is secure with his manhood, and doesn't have "Big Truck Syndrome"
Grand Nagus Zek (and Martok) is secure with his manhood, and doesn't have "Big Truck Syndrome"
One of the amusing facets of Ferengi culture established in DS9 is that the Ferengi's idea of a body part that embodies masculinity and male power is not the penis -- it's the earlobe.
And everyone can see how big Zek's earlobes are!
Perhaps with Ferengi ships something akin to the old prize rules back in the days of sail apply. In that the crew all get a share of any profits arising from a mission. Percentage based on rank etc..
By travelling in a shuttle when the Nagus makes a transaction he gets to keep all the profits for himself.
By travelling in a shuttle when the Nagus makes a transaction he gets to keep all the profits for himself.
^ Now THAT's a rationale that at least makes sense to me.
That fact does NOT remain. From Memory Alpha:
"The Ferengi culture had roots similar to those of many other species, filled with wars, violence, and greed. However, the Ferengi managed to avoid many of the worst aspects of an evolving culture and their social history was notable for the absence of atrocities such as slavery or genocide, a distinction the Ferengi felt made them morally superior. Ferengi culture slowly grew out of its early stages by introducing a remarkable economic system that developed from early bartering systems to become one of the leading cultures in interstellar commerce. (DS9: "The Jem'Hadar", "Little Green Men")
Generally, the Ferengi Alliance stayed neutral in the politics of the galaxy, since the Ferengi were solely interested in profit and making enemies would diminish business opportunities. In the spirit of free enterprise, most Ferengi business ventures were made without the knowledge of the government. As a result, while a number of hostile conflicts occurred between the Federation and the Ferengi in the 2360s, the Ferengi Alliance itself was not held responsible.
In keeping with their neutral tradition, the Ferengi did not maintain a standing military force and were generally considered ineffectual in most military matters. However, the role of DaiMon in Ferengi commerce was a quasi-military rank and the Alliance did provide the use of starships, notably the D'Kora-class marauders, for the purpose of mercantile exploration and, in some cases, defense of business interests. (TNG: "Ménage à Troi") "
So they may not be AS violent as some UFP adversaries and allies but they still use violence when profits are involved. The Ferengi culture was designed to be capitolism run amok. many human wars are profit motivated, or driven to gain resources, which is in itself profit motivated (mind you I'm not saying this is the norm).
Just because they don't engage in organized warfare or have political assassinations, that doesn't mean they are less violent than other races.
Even if they were non violent and neutral, they would still have enemies, enemies who would do doubt like to kill the Negas. I'm sure Swiss politicians and business leaders need a measure of security.
What qualifies as "security"? Chancellor Gorkon was slaughtered while traveling in the largest known Klingon warship type of the day. Big ships may simply present a big target for the motivated killer.
And Klingons should know that better than anybody else, considering how they routinely travel cloaked but unshielded, and could pounce each other with impunity. Small craft that neglect to file a flight plan might be the choice of the wary.
Timo Saloniemi
And Klingons should know that better than anybody else, considering how they routinely travel cloaked but unshielded, and could pounce each other with impunity. Small craft that neglect to file a flight plan might be the choice of the wary.
Timo Saloniemi
Then why don't heads of state travel via Cessna 172s with unregistered flight plans? Air Force One often doesn't fly around broadcasting its position, and the president is more secure on it than a small craft. Gorkon was killed by a massive conspiracy that is an exception to the norm.
Of course, I wasn't comparing the Ferengi to UFP adversaries and allies. I was comparing them to modern Humans.
Once again, I never compared them to other Star Trek species, I compared them to modern Humans -- and specifically I compared them in terms of having organized warfare or political assassinations, in order to explain why they may not think of head of state/government transport in terms of the need to thwart potential assassins.
If we both concede that they don't have a significant history of warfare or political assassinations in comparison to modern Humans, then I don't see what we're debating.
Space is many orders of magnitude more vast, and a shuttlecraft many orders of magnitude harder to find, than an airplane in a single planet's atmosphere. A shuttlecraft may well be more secure flying through space without a flight plan than an airplane.
I would also note that I think it's a mistake to compare the Ferengi Alliance's head of state transportation practices to the United States's. The United States is a global superpower; the Ferengi Alliance isn't even a regional hegemon. You brought up Switzerland, and the air transport craft they use for the Swiss Federal Council isn't a half-bad analogy. In comparison to Air Force One, a Cessna Citation Excel might as well be a shuttlecraft. I think the Federation is much more likely to transport its President in a large starship than the Ferengi. (The novels have established that the Federation President is usually transported in a civilian-registered starship called Paris One; I like to imagine that Paris One is a modified Galaxy-class starship.)
Paris One? A galaxy would make sense. It has the presence and luxury you would expect.
With the comparison of space being orders of magnitude larger than Earth, quantitatively speaking, the difference between a shuttle and a starship is extremely small when it comes to locating a vessel. if one doesn't want to be found in the depths of space, I don't think a starship is that much easier to find than a shuttlecraft.
With the comparison of space being orders of magnitude larger than Earth, quantitatively speaking, the difference between a shuttle and a starship is extremely small when it comes to locating a vessel. if one doesn't want to be found in the depths of space, I don't think a starship is that much easier to find than a shuttlecraft.
Great wikipedia site, Sci. I should expect a flag enthusiast to be knowledgable about where to find national transportation assets.
In regards to the Swiss transports in that link, all of those listed are larger than a Ferengi shuttle and all appear to be paid for by the Swiss governent. So that would still seem to indicate the Nagus should have had better transportation. However, I will agree that it makes more sense to compare the Ferengi to the Swiss than to Americans.
You well supported your argument that a Marauder wouldn't be expected for the Nagus, but I still don't see him at the other extreme, using a small, single room, uncrewed shuttle.
In regards to the Swiss transports in that link, all of those listed are larger than a Ferengi shuttle and all appear to be paid for by the Swiss governent. So that would still seem to indicate the Nagus should have had better transportation. However, I will agree that it makes more sense to compare the Ferengi to the Swiss than to Americans.
You well supported your argument that a Marauder wouldn't be expected for the Nagus, but I still don't see him at the other extreme, using a small, single room, uncrewed shuttle.
Yeah. The author wanted a name that was evocative of Air Force One, but non-military and less America-centric in theme, so he named it after the Federation capital city.
In an earlier novel, he had also established that there are three shuttlecraft permanently stationed at the Palais de la Concorde, the Federation capitol, named the al-Rashid, the T'Maran, and the sh'Rothress, all after early Federation Presidents; these shuttles generally transport the President within the Sol system if she can't use a transporter. That novel also depicted the President as being transported to the newest Federation Member world for its admission ceremony aboard the Galaxy-class U.S.S. Venture.
Another novel, set in an alternate timeline and written by a different author, established that any Starfleet craft the President is aboard assumes the call sign Starfleet One. This may or may not hold true for stories set in the Prime timeline; it's never established if Paris One is the ship's name or call sign, nor if the Venture assumed any other call sign.
I was mostly thinking in terms of its size -- it's large enough that it could conceivably house all of the constitutional bodies of the Federation government (the President, the Cabinet, the Federation Council, and the Federation Supreme Court). It's somewhat luxurious, yeah -- but I was thinking more in terms of stateliness. It's a very majestic design, but it's not aggressive-looking. The Galaxy class looks powerful but not hostile. It seems the perfect ship to transport the Federation President that way.
I would have thought that a shuttlecraft's warp signature would be much less powerful, and thus much harder to detect -- or, if detected, to differentiate from the numerous other thousands of small personal craft that are probably always crossing the space lanes.
Thanks. It really is fascinating, looking at different practices -- the way one country might have its military do everything in huge airplanes, while another might just have its PM buy commercial.
How so? A large plane is just a bigger target, and a Boeing 747 crash is far less survivable than a Cessna 174 one. There are no additional survival modes available for a large plane in case of an air-to-air threat such as a missile or gun attack, either. All the 747 has to its advantage is four-engine redundancy, which in practice means it can lose two engines to an attack (or an accident). A general aviation plane with two engines would be about as secure.
As for secret jammers and such, they would do much more good aboard a Cessna. The choice of a big jet isn't for reasons of safety against attack: it is for range, speed, capacity and comfort.
If the Nagus prefers solo flights, then capacity isn't an issue. Range and speed seem to be available in abundance in those small craft. It's just an issue of comfort, then - and the Ferengi may have vastly different ideas on that.
Really, the Ferengi small craft are in a category of their own, even in the context of Star Trek ships which aren't quite "aircraft", aren't quite "ships or boats", and aren't quite "limousines", either. The Nagus travels between stars faster than most capital ships, can park on an average Californian driveway, and despite appearances seems to carry at least two or three assorted lackeys and ear-rubbers with him on most occasions. Perhaps he travels in a swarm of small vessels, sometimes making solo diversions but often keeping the close company of his earhairstylists and headtoppolishers?
Timo Saloniemi
...I'm sure the Ferengi would take great care to make their docking ports universally compatible. How else could they board the ships of their clients even when they don't yet know they are clients? I'm of course referring purely to aggressive sales campaigns in deep space, not to piracy or any such completely un-Ferengi-like activity!
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
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