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Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

I think they'd settled on Lien at this point. "Before and After" was a condensation of what they had planned to do over the next four years, what with having Kes live her life and ultimately get old. Since it was concentrated into one episode, they took it to a further extreme than they otherwise would; I think the Harry/Linnis pairing would have been a problem with audiences if he'd been seen feeding her a bottle a couple years earlier, no matter how old she looked now.



As good a way as any to explain the peculiar properties of the Mirror Universe.

EDIT: 1000 replies to this topic, and still going strong.

People Magazine saved Wang between seasons.

Let's double check that.

Scorpion Part I, 21 May 1997

People Magazine - May 12, 1997 - 50 Most Beautiful People in the World

Scorpion Part 2, 3 Sep 1997

Okies.

So the magazine came out a week before Scorpion 1 aired, but probably months after Scorpion 1 was produced.

They wanted to fire Wang because he would arrive on set stinking of booze without having gone to sleep yet with floozies in tow after partying hard, and he didn't know his lines. He wasn't drunk, but he was probably hung over. It was unprofessional and disrespectful to everyone.

It's like he wanted to be fired.
 
I think they'd settled on Lien at this point. "Before and After" was a condensation of what they had planned to do over the next four years, what with having Kes live her life and ultimately get old.

Well, except perhaps for that last part. It'd be kind of depressing to see her going into morologium in the last season, slowly deteriorating, until the point she doesn't even recognise her children anymore. Might hit too close to home for many viewers who've actually seen that happen with their loved ones.
 
I stand corrected.
clearly Kes knowing the future led voyager on a different path.

Anorax and his crew were not aging, but their clocks still worked. His ship had been outside of time for 200 years, hovering over 2374, and probably committed thousands of temporal incursions, changing everything.

Voyager was beneath Anorax's notice because it was "temporally inert" until Janeway invented Temporal Shields. But here's the kicker.. Any Voyager that had an active biotemporal chamber was also not temporally inert, and would have screwed up the math on Annorax's next incursion.

It was the Borg from First Contact, obviously.

They got rid of the biotemporal chamber, by starting the war with 8472, that jumpstarted Kes' powers, and she died somewhere else.
 
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They wanted to fire Wang because he would arrive on set stinking of booze without having gone to sleep yet with floozies in tow after partying hard, and he didn't know his lines. He wasn't drunk, but he was probably hung over. It was unprofessional and disrespectful to everyone.

It's like he wanted to be fired.

I heard Lien had similar issues, and that Beltran freely admitted that he was trying to get sacked. Given how little their characters contributed, maybe they should've sacked them all. Tuvok becomes first officer. Ayala talks a little more and becomes head of security. Maybe even give Neelix that gold uniform again. An endless supply of redshirts takes over for Harry, and Seven supplants Kes. The show has seven main characters, like TNG and ENT.

Well, except perhaps for that last part. It'd be kind of depressing to see her going into morologium in the last season, slowly deteriorating, until the point she doesn't even recognise her children anymore. Might hit too close to home for many viewers who've actually seen that happen with their loved ones.

We don't know if the morilogium really works that way. Remember that "Before and After" featured Kes being caught in a temporal anomaly, not necessarily a conventional end of life.
 
They should have made Chakotay Kirk's grandson, from when he knocked up that girl in The Paradise Syndrome, and it only seemed like she lost the baby at the end.

Watch Bobby perk right the fuck up when they change his name to Chakotay Kirk in the opening credits.
 
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We don't know if the morilogium really works that way. Remember that "Before and After" featured Kes being caught in a temporal anomaly, not necessarily a conventional end of life.

True, but I also see no particular reason to assume that a conventional end to an Ocampan life span would go significantly differently. But yeah, we don't really know.
 
They should have made Chakotay Kirk's grandson, from when he knocked up that girl in The Paradise Syndrome, and it only seemed like she lost the baby at the end.

Watch Bobby perk right... up when they change his name Chakotay Kirk in the opening credits.

Make Chakotay an interesting character? How dare you even suggest that.
 
Well, these topics are like conversations, and some drift does happen. I've been chastised by one of the mods for mentioning this topic in other forums. In my own days as a moderator (many moons ago and not here), I did the exact same thing.

But to get back on topic, I actually have several scenarios where Harry could have gotten that hollow pip, and it would have made sense within the context of the story. Because no one likes walls of text, I'll post it in pieces... let's start with early Voyager...the first couple of seasons might not be ideal, but given that Harry was doing lieutenant work from the outset, not entirely inappropriate, either...

1. FACES - Pete Durst was a lieutenant in the Operations division, and presumably Harry's immediate superior. When he died, there was presumably no lieutenant in operations. Assuming there really is a command structure (whatever that is), said lieutenant would need to be replaced. Since Voyager can't exactly comm Starfleet and ask them to send out a new one, promoting from within (also known as a "battlefield promotion") is the only solution. No one likes to rank up that way, especially if the dead superior is a friend and colleague, but you can resolve to honor their memory by doing the job as well as you can.


2. TWISTED - Janeway mentions that Harry was a bright spot in the mission, the way she did in the actual episode, but she simply doesn't leave it at that. Instead, she reveals that she intends to put him up for promotion to lieutenant as soon as the affair is over. This follows directly on the heels of his imminent promotion in the alternative reality of "Non Sequiteur", the immediately previous episode. Harry has his higher rank when he shows up in "Parturition", and since it's been discussed in two episodes, neither a ceremony nor further discussion is necessary.


3. RESOLUTIONS - For most of the series, Harry is a mature, capable, and professional officer. But, because they needed to show how upset the crew was about Janeway being gone, the writers decided that their only option was a spot of character assassination, so Harry basically behaved like a nine-year-old who didn't get his way. But, what if said writers had chosen differently? What if he had simply suggested contacting the Vidiians (they were right there), but pulled back when Tuvok didn't buy into his sophistry? There would have been other ways to show how upset the crew was (and maybe they would have shown that everyone was upset, not just one person), and Kes would still have been able to bring Tuvok around. Meanwhile, the latter could have acted like he was really taking command: he puts on the correct uniform and rank insignia, Ayala is bumped up to security chief (they might have to let him talk again), and Tom is revealed to have a new appreciation for Chakotay due to his elevation to acting first officer. In the same process, Harry receives a field promotion to lieutenant. When Janeway and Chakotay have been safely retrieved and are carefully talking pure shop at episode's end, Janeway could simply state that Harry was due anyway, and she'll let his promotion stand.
 
It's so far off topic I should re-title this "Random Voyager Shit Discussion" ;)

That's not a terrible idea (and you made me laugh). It would make it easier to stay on topic. It seems that all threads over a certain length involve discussion of why Harry didn't get promoted, why Kes left and "Tuvix" at some point.
 
Perhaps because we have members who have strong feelings on all those issues. I think I found this board after doing an internet search on "why wasn't Harry Kim promoted" or something similar.
 
Perhaps because we have members who have strong feelings on all those issues. I think I found this board after doing an internet search on "why wasn't Harry Kim promoted" or something similar.

I would like to clarify that my message is not a criticism in any way.
 
No worries. I spent about 22 years on assorted boards like this one, and was a moderator on several of them. Conversations drifting off topic is very normal, as is repeated references to something that matters to a lot of members.
 
I doubt she could have controlled a bunch of unruly Maquis through fear, and the sheer devotion they had went beyond mere respect. This was cult leader devotion: look at Harry in "Non Sequitur". He's home, his career is prospering, he's got a gorgeous fiancee... and he spends the whole episode trying to get back.

You're actually right. The scenario that I provided in my earlier post was just a "worst case scenario" to create a debate. I do so sometimes.

Personally I would go for scenario 1, that Janeway was respected and liked by the crew and that they all seem to think that she was the one who could get them home.

It was showed in The 37's when Janeway and Chakotay arrives to the cargo Bay to say goodbye to those who would stay on the planet and no one is there. Actually one of the best scenes in the series.

why do both Janeway and Chakotay give him glowing praise?
Honestly, I think they appreciated Harry for being a hard working officer and a good crewmember.

My comment was a bit hard on Harry but sometimes I think that he was made too mucjh of a "whipping boy" in the series. I like him better in the books where he's contributing a lot more.
 
was showed in The 37's when Janeway and Chakotay arrives to the cargo Bay to say goodbye to those who would stay on the planet and no one is there. Actually one of the best scenes in the series.

I'm inclined to disagree, simply because I didn't buy that every single person onboard would choose a long perilous journey over making a new home on the 37's Planet.

Personally, I would have developed Carey a little more in S1, then had him unexpectedly take a hike with a few discontented Maquis. A bit of a betrayal, but a much better use for the character than just having him vanish for six years and redshirting him a few weeks from home.
 
I agree with Oddish.

Now, if "THE 37's" happened later in the show, say in season 4 or 5, when they have already cut large amounts of time off their trip, I can see the cargo bay being empty like that scene.

But that early in the journey, they had already lost one crewman horrifically (Durst became an involuntary organ donor), THREE possibilities for a shortcut didn't pan out (the microwormhole, spatial trajector, whatever the Briori used), and home was still 75 years away, with at least two enemies they would have to dodge (Kazon and Vidiian, with everyone knowing the Borg would likely show up later) for at least a while, with who knows how many more threats there were out there?

Put that up against the prospect of a nice planet populated with peaceful humans, in a world that seems left alone?

There should have been at least a few people deciding to stay. That was unrealistic.

(Though it was a sweet moment and scene, and I know what they were going for. It just didn't ring true, particularly for a season premiere. UPN should have made that the season finale, as it was produced.)
 
I'm inclined to disagree, simply because I didn't buy that every single person onboard would choose a long perilous journey over making a new home on the 37's Planet.

Personally, I would have developed Carey a little more in S1, then had him unexpectedly take a hike with a few discontented Maquis. A bit of a betrayal, but a much better use for the character than just having him vanish for six years and redshirting him a few weeks from home.

I wouldn't even call it a betrayal, and I think it would reveal a lot about Janeway if she took it as such.

Voyager's "mission" is a longshot that seemingly shouldn't succeed, and if it does, shouldn't succeed within the lifetime of any of the adult humans on the ship. They know that they're likely to run into the Borg, which in and of itself should be enough to make them have grave doubts about the survivability of getting back to Earth, and then there's all the other civilizations that might decide to make their lives more difficult.

I can't blame anyone for thinking, "Y'know what? Maybe a fresh start with humans on an alien planet, but who are doing pretty well for themselves, ain't so bad..."
 
wouldn't even call it a betrayal, and I think it would reveal a lot about Janeway if she took it as such.

She wouldn't. But if the director played it right, I think the viewers would. Especially if they had come to know Carey in the first year, see him as a dedicated and determined engineer. And then... this.

can't blame anyone for thinking, "Y'know what? Maybe a fresh start with humans on an alien planet, but who are doing pretty well for themselves, ain't so bad..."

That's why I thought it unrealistic that 0 out of 150 crew took this option.
 
I mean, Carey's also the engineer who got pushed to the side in favor of Torres, sooooo....

Of course, with the benefit of hindsight, staying behind probably would have ultimately worked out much better for him, though I wonder how that might have impacted Voyager's trip...
 
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