I think it was a restore previous save, but since some data was lost, Tom had to rewrite some stuff, ad lib. Hence, instead of nameless and bald, the EMH in that timeline gave himself a full head of hair and chose a name.
Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?
- Thread starter B. L.
- Start date
I think it was a restore previous save, but since some data was lost, Tom had to rewrite some stuff, ad lib. Hence, instead of nameless and bald, the EMH in that timeline gave himself a full head of hair and chose a name.
And then there’s Tilly. Became an Ensign in 2257. Finally promoted to Lieutenant in 3190. That’s gotta be a record. No wonder she left the ship.
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I'm sorry, but I don't regard regaining an old rank as a real promotion. You believe one thing. I believe another. Let's leave it at that. As for Harry Kim . . . I suspect Janeway got whiff of his behavior in the Season 2 episode "Resolutions", even though Tuvok had promised to remain quiet about it.
That's typical for Berman and Braga. I get the impression that they had a very bossy attitude during the time they were in charge of Star Trek.
I'ts also been stated that Berman and Braga had creative discussions with their cast members. I get the impression that they did listen to suggestions from the cast members but there were only some of them who had any saying when it came to character development and such.
When it comes to Voyager, I'm sure that the only cast members who had any impact on the decision making were Mulgrew and Picardo.
Beltran and Wang were regarded as "troublemakers" and therefore constantly over-run by the bosses and the rest of them, even including Jeri Ryan despite her status as the "savior of the show" were simply ignored.
Did fans of Kim take part in a letter campaign?
I've never heard of that. Do you have any details?
In that case, the fans of Kim should be eternally grateful that he wasn't turned into a soul-less, ugly disgusting monster and then killed off. Look what happened to Kes when people started to send in letters and suggestion for her return in the series!
Or being demoted and sent down to be a member of The Torpedo And Shuttle Building Team!
There are two possible scenarios here:
1. Janeway was very popular among the crew and seen as a smart, skilled captain who also cared a lot for each and every crew member. Therefore the crewmembers, both Starfleet and Maquis saw her as a great leader who they were ready to sacrifice themselves for and also never questioned her more dubious decisions.
2. Janeway ruled the ship with fear, just like Stalin. Tuvok was her Berija and the slightest questioning of any of her orders were reported to her with dire consequences for those who had expressed the slightest doubts of her decisions.
Those who were labeled as "unreliable" ended up in Cargo Bay One where they were constantly locked in and had to work day and night as members of The Shuttle And Torpedo Building Team. Or they simply just "disappeared".
Pick your choice!
OK, I just replied to a post by Guy Gardener in another thread abou the events in Before And After that they took place in an alternate universe and not "our Star Trek Universe".
But I still don't understand why Kes was always regarded as a "civilian" and not allowed to wear a Starfleet uniform when there were several Maquis who didn't have any Starfleet experience at all but still put in Starfleet uniforms. OK, neither Talax or Ocampa were members of the federation but if Neelix could show up in a uniform in beforew And after, why not Kes? In fact,she's the one non-Starfleet member who most easily could have been given the honor of becoming a full-time member of the Starfleet crew due to her ability to learn and develope.
As for Kes being one of the Doctor's staunchest advocates, I guess that's because she's a fan. I guess that he has been a musical influence to her.
KES: "As soon as I heard The Doctor play those wonderful tunes, I realized that music was my call, therefore I started my own band!"
I'm sure she did. Note my alternate scenario above in my reply to Oddish when Janeway's authority over the crew members is debated.
His behavior then, his constant whining and almost crying every time a possible shortcut home turned out to be a false hope, his constant ability to be seriously injured, close to death or beaten up on several occasions plus his "awful taste in music", according to Janeway was the real reason that he was never promoted
Ok for transfers then, but still no evidence about demotions.
I think it was more like a gradual thing. We can’t even really define sentience exactly, nor can they in the 24th century, as shown by Picard in measure of a man.
what?!
didn’t seem to stop those miner-doctors. Or moriarty. Or the assistant to doctor Zimmerman.
”our” doctor eventually chose joe in the alternate future of the finale…
it was probably up to her. She was probably not that interested in following all those Starfleet rules, as seven wasn’t.
Kirk demoted Decker, but I'd call that a field demotion, and a dick move. Same with Tim, but he deserved that demotion, and probably should have been kicked out of Starfleet.
Turnabout intruder...
Voyager Endgame
Voyager the Omega Directive
It's an evaluation process. What happens when a crewman has negative value?
Early Federation holograms were drones.
A Lack of nuance.
My headcanon is that Moriarty was the template for the next generation of Federation Holograms. Eventually someone dissected him and mass-fabricated the new design, and then they put limiters in to make sure that they were all just shy of sentience. Otherwise if that's rubbish, all Enterprise's Computer had to do to create an opponent capable of defeating Data, was to turn off the limiter.
Zimmerman's assistant was hand made. The first and last of its kind.
It's called a Turing Test.
If a robot can convince you that it is a person, then it's a person, and if it cannot, then it is a robot. The problem with that is that a robot can be a lot smarter than a person without being sentient, and even be programmed to fake sentience and trick humans into believing that they are lifeforms.
PS
Star Trek used the wrong word 40 years ago, and nerds are too assholly to roll that back, and they'd rather fight the dictionary, than admit error.
Sentience means that you can sense the world around you.
Sapience means that you can think cogently.
You probably already knew that, no big.
Wikipedia at one point said "in science fiction sentience means sapience, but nowhere else."
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it was temporary and coming from Starfleet command. Still, as I wrote, we never seen demotions imparted by anyone that wasn’t at least a captain.
that’s sure!
tim who?
see above.
see above.
seven isn’t even in Starfleet, she can’t demote anyone.
the Turing test has long been criticised for being unreliable in determining anything. We’ve had AIs able of passing it for around ten years now. Moreover, pretty much all the normal Starfleet holograms we’ve seen would pass it easily.
In TMP, in the final log, Kirk lists Decker as a captain among the casualties. Clearly, him taking over command was a dick move, but it was only in the field for that mission.
Regarding Tom Paris, the severity of his punishment is arguable. Chakotay stole a shuttle and went after Seska on his own in "MANEUVERS", Tuvok copied the literature database and attempted the trade in "PRIME FACTORS" and Torres also was part of that, and Kim broke regulations in "THE DISEASE". Every member of the senior staff did something against rules or orders, yet Tom was the only one who got a demotion and a month in the brig. The difference with Tom was that he was her personal project, as Chakotay put it once. He should have been punished, yes, but I think that was overboard.
In "TURNABOUT INTRUDER", I think Janice Lester was in Kirk's body at the time that dialogue was used, so what she says can be taken with huge grains of salt.
In "ENDGAME", while it may be possible for Starfleet to demote Kim back from captain to ensign, the most likely scenario would be a court martial and dismissal from Starfleet, given that situation.
In "THE OMEGA DIRECTIVE", Seven was in charge of that omega particle cage project only, and assigning various people to various tasks. She used Borg designations like 6 of 10 and 8 of 10, which Kim was put at higher number than he was originally, thus his statement. It most definitely was not an actual demotion of his rank and position aboard Voyager.
Of course the rank reduction in TMP wasn't even necessary, but Trek has always had trouble acknowedging that captain as rank and captain as position aren't the same thing. (i.e. that it's entirely possible to be a ship's captain without having the rank of captain, or conversely, that you can have a captain's rank without actually being the CO of a ship (or space station)).
It's not really important, but in the Omega Directive Kim was put at a lower number, which was apparently a demotion (he got reassigned from 6 of 10 to 2 of 10). So apparently the higher the number, the higher the rank. I wonder if that means that 7 was 3rd in command of her 'group' of 9.
It's not really important, but in the Omega Directive Kim was put at a lower number, which was apparently a demotion (he got reassigned from 6 of 10 to 2 of 10). So apparently the higher the number, the higher the rank. I wonder if that means that 7 was 3rd in command of her 'group' of 9.
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It's not that Seven can or cannot demote Starfleet officers, it's that when she demoted Harry in her collective, she said that she learnt how to demote drones from Starfleet.
I know it’s a costuming error, but Tuvok moves from having lt.Commander pops to Lt only after Prime Factors, some argue he’s been demoted due to his actions.
Yeah, that “temporary demotion” always bothered me, especially as in the following movie a similar situation take place and yet Kirk remains an admiral and Spock a captain.
still irrelevant. She means that borg don’t demote drones as punishment.
Tuvok 's was definitely a costume error. In over 800 episodes of the franchise, when has a Lt. Commander been referred to as 'Lieutenant' when they were addressed or referred to by someone else? A Lt. Cmdr. has always been referred to as 'Commander'... same reason a j.g. lieutenant is referred to simply as 'Lieutenant'.
Plus, the theme in seasons 1-3 credit Tim Russ as 'Lieutenant Tuvok'. Not 'Lt. Commander'.
Plus, the theme in seasons 1-3 credit Tim Russ as 'Lieutenant Tuvok'. Not 'Lt. Commander'.
Exactly the reason it’s usually regarded as a costuming error. Still it would fit nicely.
It's possible that Tuvok was having an affair with a LT Commander, and they kept accidentally wearing each other's uniforms... Or Tuvok is one of those cavemen who refuses to learn how to do his own washing?
Lt Commander Leo McGarry was pretty sexy for an old bloke.
I could see them together doing a crossword together in bed on their day off.
Lt Commander Leo McGarry was pretty sexy for an old bloke.
I could see them together doing a crossword together in bed on their day off.
I think that if you go by subjective time rather than objective, she advanced a little bit faster.
Ok, one, Tuvok was still promoted, so your "she didn't promote anyone" argument is still torpedoed.
And two, why would Janeway destroy one officer for advocating a course of action that violated her orders... and promote the officer who actually violated said orders?
Did fans of Kim take part in a letter campaign?
I've never heard of that. Do you have any details?
No, but it makes sense. The question of "why wasn't Harry promoted" has been hanging over Voyager fandom for two decades now. Besides, why else would the writers have included those "we're not promoting him and there's nothing you can do about it" scenes?
There is that.
Or being demoted and sent down to be a member of The Torpedo And Shuttle Building Team!
They should have promoted him and put him in charge of it. Kill two inconsistencies with one stone.
I doubt she could have controlled a bunch of unruly Maquis through fear, and the sheer devotion they had went beyond mere respect. This was cult leader devotion: look at Harry in "Non Sequitur". He's home, his career is prospering, he's got a gorgeous fiancee... and he spends the whole episode trying to get back.
Then why do both Janeway and Chakotay give him glowing praise?
25+ years later. And no hair.
The 24th century version of the test is probably far more sophisticated.
I don't remember Janeway planning to stop any of them by killing them, had it been necessary. She was quite ready to blow up both Tom and the Flyer.
She REALLY wanted to let that ocean destroy itself... aquaphobic, maybe?
The prime directive provides two answers from letting those aliens sort out their space ocean.
1. They choke on their own filth, and the universe is spared from a mass polluter spreading waste and garbage further across the universe as they grow/extend as a culture.
2. They have an epiphany, and easily save themselves, despite some pain and sacrifice, and then expand across the universe as an ecologically sound space/water fearing culture, who are not dirty.
1. They choke on their own filth, and the universe is spared from a mass polluter spreading waste and garbage further across the universe as they grow/extend as a culture.
2. They have an epiphany, and easily save themselves, despite some pain and sacrifice, and then expand across the universe as an ecologically sound space/water fearing culture, who are not dirty.
Oh, but if we go by 'subjective time', Data probably is the clear winner ... by his own admission, 0.68 seconds is already 'nearly an eternity' for him after all
Oh, but if we go by 'subjective time', Data probably is the clear winner ... by his own admission, 0.68 seconds is already 'nearly an eternity' for him after all
And I argue almost as hard for Data getting his third gold pip as for Harry getting his hollow one. If Crusher and Deanna could be commanders, Data (ahead of them in the line of succession) should have been.
Also, I periodically advocate for other unfairly passed over officers, like Mayweather (the most experienced and competent human on that ship) and Boimler (who didn't deserve to be demoted). It's kind of a hobby of mine.
Or they don't have a version. The Turing test is basically a test to see if a A.I. can be deceptive, and convince someone that the A.I. is something it isn't.
Artificial intelligence is just that, artificial.
True, and except for Chakotay's case, no situation posed a direct danger to the ship. (Though you could argue Kim's situation put the ship in danger due to it being docked with the generational ship while it was coming apart.)
Honestly, Chakotay's case was more severe than Tom's, because it was the First Officer who stole the shuttle and went out on his own. He should have gotten more than being 'put on report'.
I'm not saying Tom should have just gotten a slap on the wrist, but a month in the brig and a demotion just put out the wrong message.
