I’m not sure why we are discussing who’s fourth in command on the Vouager when we’ve seen that Paris is in several instances on the series...Yes, over B’Elanna even if she outranks him, due to him “being a bridge officer”, according to him.
Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?
- Thread starter B. L.
- Start date
Real life knowledge is the basis of Trek’s rank structure. It was even stated in TNG how ranks of that era worked.
Besides we have Berman’s word for as for why he kept characters at the rank of ensign.
Which amount to “because he said so”. A real world application. That runs counter to established Trek lore. See above video.
Besides, having a set of rules based in reality allows us to have a discussion. Where we can agree and disagree. Like how we ALL agree that it is absolutely absurd for a person to go from cadet to captain in one day. ZING!!!
Ronald D. Moore was in Navy ROTC and was set to deploy right around the time he got the job on TNG. I’m sure he and Behr had a lot to do with the proper ranking applications on DS9. Probably why DS9 ends with Nog making Lt jr. Nog had 2 years as a cadet and 2 years as an ensign before making Lt. No doubt the demands of the Dominion War helped fast track his ascension.
Moore brought a lot of the same energy to his reimagined BSG series.
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all? Someone approved that story detail in Star Trek 2009...and, truth be told, a lot of people in the audience didn’t even think twice about it, actually.
Of course to many of us it IS absurd, but some, probably a majority, even some up here follow the philosophy of “it’s just a show, go with it” and don’t care if it has absurd occurrences.
I still find it ridiculous and insane that an ensign is XO of a ship.
Not more ridiculous and insane than a cadet going straight to captain in one shot, but pretty damn close.
Regarding Worf, the events of "CHANGE OF HEART" probably put a halt on Worf's advancement in rank for quite a while, given Sisko's conversation with him afterward.
There's actually one character in the franchise that was cheated out of a promotion worse than anyone, even Harry Kim.
Data. He was a Lt. Cmdr. and second officer of a starship for 15 years! He should have gotten to be a full Commander for mdny reasons...
1. He was third in command of the ship, but Crusher was a higher rank and later Troi. He could easily have been a Commander.
2. He saved Earth from the Borg. Let's be real, if not for his breakthrough with Picard, the Borg would have assimilated Earth... right after the Enterprise flew into the cube. That deserved a full pip right there, never mind his excellent service as Lt. Cmdr. for 3 full years prior to that.
3. He has served as XO before, both during a war game and as Jellico's XO. He served flawlessly.
4. He commanded the Enterprise while Picard was 'dead' and Riker was a 'renegade' in "Gambit". He dealt with the situation AND a stubborn XO in Worf. He was flawless.
5. He commanded the Sutherland during the blockade. His actions directly led to the Romulans being exposed as helping the Duras family, leading the sisters to lose that civil war, for Gowron to remain as leader, AND it kept the treaty and peace with the Federation. By the way, he did that with an asshole XO who was being racist. He even submitted himself for disciplinary actions expecting punishment for disobeying orders, but for obvious reasons he was not and instead was commended. THAT command was flawless.
Many also argue that since Riker got to be XO of the flagship of the Federation after only about 6 years of service, Data should be a full Commander in the same time. I actually disagree with that, because the nature of Data was following regulations and procedures to the letter. Riker was one who took a lot of chances and stood out because of it. His conversation with Lt. Picard in "Tapestry" proves this, and is quite likely true of Picard and his quick rise. I don't think Data stood out in those years before the Enterprise because of his by the book nature, but he did earn his rank and position the hard way. But he SHOULD have earned a Commander rank by the end of the series. At the very least, by FIRST CONTACT.
(By the way, I do feel Riker getting to Commander in 6 years is too fast, but not unbelievably so. He has natural leadership qualities, so that helps him. Plus, I think Pressman might have quietly pushed things a little faster for him, which would explain his "I made you..." line make a lot of sense. Definitely far easier pill to swallow than Cadet Kirk getting to be captain after one incident or Tilly being an XO as an ensign.)
Not more ridiculous and insane than a cadet going straight to captain in one shot, but pretty damn close.
Regarding Worf, the events of "CHANGE OF HEART" probably put a halt on Worf's advancement in rank for quite a while, given Sisko's conversation with him afterward.
There's actually one character in the franchise that was cheated out of a promotion worse than anyone, even Harry Kim.
Data. He was a Lt. Cmdr. and second officer of a starship for 15 years! He should have gotten to be a full Commander for mdny reasons...
1. He was third in command of the ship, but Crusher was a higher rank and later Troi. He could easily have been a Commander.
2. He saved Earth from the Borg. Let's be real, if not for his breakthrough with Picard, the Borg would have assimilated Earth... right after the Enterprise flew into the cube. That deserved a full pip right there, never mind his excellent service as Lt. Cmdr. for 3 full years prior to that.
3. He has served as XO before, both during a war game and as Jellico's XO. He served flawlessly.
4. He commanded the Enterprise while Picard was 'dead' and Riker was a 'renegade' in "Gambit". He dealt with the situation AND a stubborn XO in Worf. He was flawless.
5. He commanded the Sutherland during the blockade. His actions directly led to the Romulans being exposed as helping the Duras family, leading the sisters to lose that civil war, for Gowron to remain as leader, AND it kept the treaty and peace with the Federation. By the way, he did that with an asshole XO who was being racist. He even submitted himself for disciplinary actions expecting punishment for disobeying orders, but for obvious reasons he was not and instead was commended. THAT command was flawless.
Many also argue that since Riker got to be XO of the flagship of the Federation after only about 6 years of service, Data should be a full Commander in the same time. I actually disagree with that, because the nature of Data was following regulations and procedures to the letter. Riker was one who took a lot of chances and stood out because of it. His conversation with Lt. Picard in "Tapestry" proves this, and is quite likely true of Picard and his quick rise. I don't think Data stood out in those years before the Enterprise because of his by the book nature, but he did earn his rank and position the hard way. But he SHOULD have earned a Commander rank by the end of the series. At the very least, by FIRST CONTACT.
(By the way, I do feel Riker getting to Commander in 6 years is too fast, but not unbelievably so. He has natural leadership qualities, so that helps him. Plus, I think Pressman might have quietly pushed things a little faster for him, which would explain his "I made you..." line make a lot of sense. Definitely far easier pill to swallow than Cadet Kirk getting to be captain after one incident or Tilly being an XO as an ensign.)
The majority of characters either gain ranks properly, or don't because they decline promotion (like Picard and Riker both did). This makes the ones who rank up too slow or too fast or not at all more glaring.
Harry is an egregious example of the former. Hoshi and Mayweather are so stupid, I've just made it head canon that Riker's holosimulation was using outdated footage.
Going the other way, Riker was originally Ok, given that Jonathan Frakes was 34 when the show started; that would have made him 12y out of academy when he made commander, just right for a very capable officer. Sadly, in "The Pegasus", they retconned 5 years off his age, meaning he was offered a command at 29. A little soon, I think. And agreed about Kelvin Kirk.
Harry is an egregious example of the former. Hoshi and Mayweather are so stupid, I've just made it head canon that Riker's holosimulation was using outdated footage.
Going the other way, Riker was originally Ok, given that Jonathan Frakes was 34 when the show started; that would have made him 12y out of academy when he made commander, just right for a very capable officer. Sadly, in "The Pegasus", they retconned 5 years off his age, meaning he was offered a command at 29. A little soon, I think. And agreed about Kelvin Kirk.
Moore definitely helped with the realism there. I don't think it's a coincidence that in the same year Moore went to DS9, Sisko became Captain in that season's end, nor a coincidence that Dax AND Bashir both get a promotion between the season 3 finale and season 4 premiere. (Which is another reason why Sisko is my favorite captain... he ranked up, so he ranked up everyone he could along with him. Sort of like how Jack O'Neill made Carter a Lt. Colonel as soon as he made General.)
Nog is definitely realistic, as he was made an ensign due to the war, and his continued excellent service for 2 years during the war got him a promotion at the end of the war.
I also really feel that had Moore stayed on VOYAGER, one of the first things he would fix is Kim getting a promotion.
Me too. But not as much as a cadet becoming captain.
But again, it a was strange situation in a organization that does strange things...and now she’s been demoted to normal officer and promoted to lt at the same time.
very old topic...some say that saving the hexomorphs over his crewmates permanently stalled his career.
Sorta.
But mainly due to Star Trek's typical insistence that "All CO's are Captains."
In the US Coast Guard, the most junior ship's CO -- rather than small boat coxswain -- billet is LT-JG, commanding a Marine Protector class (in shore) patrol boat or similar with a crew of ten (roughly equivalent to a runabout).
Both the RN and RAN have CO billets on "off shore patrol boats" (roughly equivalent of a navy corvette or light frigate) that billet LCDRs as COs.
Well, his first command offer was the Drake, which seems like a small ship. I can buy that, because it probably functioned more like a support ship for the fleet. Captain Paul Rice apparently took that job, since both of them went to the academy together, so they would lijely be about the same age. (Lucky thing for Will...)
Same with the Aries... being XO of the flagship is far more prestigious than either captaincy. So while it is rather fast, I still don't find it insane.
Of Discovery, yes.
Depends on the ship though. The "XO" of the Marine Protector Class is a PO3 to PO1 for instance.
The Exocomp situation... that happened in season 6. More than 5 years of EXCELLENT service, not even counting the Borg incident.
I think you mean exocomps, and he should have already been a full commander by then. Consider:
Deanna: Kills a holographic version of Geordi LaForge in "Thine Own Self". Makes commander.
Data: SAVES EARTH FROM ASSIMILATION BY THE MOTHER@*#$!-ING BORG in "Best of Both Worlds II". Stuck at LCDR.
What is wrong with this picture?!
Indeed. I’ve been wondering how in good standing synthetic beings are in the public eye even at the time of TNG: you don’t get to make something illegal without support of a good portion of the population. Also let’s remember that holoslavery was the norm a few years later.
End of my reasoning, I wonder how much discrimination Data went through.
indeed, wrong franchise! Xenomorphs would have been worse though!
The exocomps aren't really an ideal indicator. They were constructed as and believed to be simple tools, not sentient beings. Data's status as an officer had been established 27 years before, and his rights as a person established in "Measure of a Man". His LCDR rank was not honorary, it was earned. If he could make that rank, he could make commander.
There are three officers I really think got shafted, promotion-wise. One was Harry, because 7 years as an ensign is just ridiculous unless you're absolute crap at your job. One is Data, because it's ridiculous that Deanna gets to be a commander when he's done far more than she has, including save Earth. And one is Mayweather, be cause he was the most experienced (and arguably the most competent) person on the NX Enterprise.
There are three officers I really think got shafted, promotion-wise. One was Harry, because 7 years as an ensign is just ridiculous unless you're absolute crap at your job. One is Data, because it's ridiculous that Deanna gets to be a commander when he's done far more than she has, including save Earth. And one is Mayweather, be cause he was the most experienced (and arguably the most competent) person on the NX Enterprise.
I think that at commander rank and beyond, skills in dealing with others would become more important, and Data might start facing prejudices more ('huh! A machine ignoring my advice and telling me what to do instead, that'll be the day!'), which might have been less of an issue at the level he was at, where commands probably would be more operational ('re-align conduit x with junction y') and less subject to arguments whether that was the right thing to do or not,
Harry Kim has been discussed to death already and I'm not entirely sure why Mayweather didn't get a promotion?
I don't think Dax should have been promoted a year and a half after "Blood Oath" and a year after "Meridian", I suspect she was promoted just so she would not be outranked by Worf (and maybe also so she would outrank Bashir).
Like with Harry, there was no good reason. With TNG, promotions were more or less realistic, with Data being the only one shortchanged. With DS9, they were uniformly fine. With Voyager, there were four main non-provisional characters: Janeway (couldn't be promoted), Tuvok (was promoted), Tom (also promoted), and Harry (shafted). And as for Enterprise, no one received any promotion at all.
Pretty sure that "Blood Oath" never happened, as far as Starfleet was concerned.
Yup. No doubt it was under deep disapproval from Sisko and company but as far as Starfleet goes Dax was on PTO.
SISKO: Let's say you are. Let's say you even survive this insanity. You expect to just come back here and resume your duties as though nothing's happened?
DAX: I guess that'll be up to you.
Given that, and Sisko's reproachful silence at the end, it makes sense that Sisko just swept the whole thing under the rug.
Regarding Harry, I've noticed in three different non-canon timelines (Endgame, Online, and The Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway) that he eventually recovers from his long ensignhood and goes on to have his own command. Seems like a suitable enough fate for him...
I just watched emanations (you know, the first season episode where Harry dies and is revived) and found that the janeway speech at the end in insight was quite hilarious. The one about Kim moving up the ranks over the next few years…
