Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by B. L., Apr 18, 2019.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Dude.

    I just described Fury.

    I didn't even get into the bit where Neelix almost has a threesome.

    They should have done a Neelix gets down episode called Furry.

    Imagine if there was a Furry on Voyager, a person who like to have sex with people in animal costumes, and they still didn't want to boff Neelix.

    Sad.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  2. Gingerbread Demon

    Gingerbread Demon Stealer of all the cookies in time and space Premium Member

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    OK I've never watched that episode.
     
  3. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    You know...

    B'Elanna:
    * Assaults her superior.
    * Promoted to chief engineer shortly after.

    Harry:
    * Doesn't assault anyone.
    * Stays an ensign for 7 years.

    Maybe if Harry had taken a poke at someone, he'd have made lieutenant. Hell, if he'd punched out Chakotay, he might have been made first officer... kind of like a Klingon ship, where you get promoted by killing your superiors.

    Maybe Janeway has Klingon blood... she's pretty handy with knives and bat'leths after all.
     
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  4. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    7 years diligently doing his job, and no promotion. Yeah. Something is definitely screwy there.



    I believe Berman said that, "someone always needs to be an ensign on the show(s)". Wesley on TNG, Nog on DS9, Harry on VOY and Hoshi on ENT. Despite how actual ranks and promotions work in the service.
     
  5. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    As much as the "no promotions" thing annoys me*, IMO it's still less annoying than the situation in the TOS movies where you have full Commanders and even Captains filling billets that were previously held by -- sometimes the same people -- at ranks as low as Lieutenant.

    * Because this at least sort of makes sense if you consider Gene's police background.
     
  6. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    I try not to go too hard on Berman, since he gave us a lot of good Trek (and casting Patrick Stewart was reportedly his idea). But in that matter (and a lot of other matters where Voyager was concerned), he was utterly full of crap. TNG had no ensign in its main cast from 4th season onward, and DS9 never had one at all (Nog was recurring cast). And as far as I know, until Chekov showed up in Year 3, TOS's only ensigns were redshirts.
     
  7. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    There's also Ro, but she was only "on board" for a little over a season, so that's a bit thin.
     
  8. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    And she got promoted anyway. Just like Chekov, Wes (acting ensign to full ensign), Ogawa, Ezri Dax, and Tom Paris.
     
  9. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    She got promoted by "improving herself" (getting extra training), which was an option not available to Harry Kim.

    Tom Paris was never actually promoted per se, in the sense that he never gaining more rank than he had before he was cashiered originally. He was just demoted and then reinstated twice.

    A better example would be Tuvok... probably... who at least per dialogue was outright promoted later in the series (notwithstanding wardrobe errors in s1)
     
  10. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Seven years of impeccable service to Voyager, doing lieutenant level work, and far exceeding what would be expected of a newbie ensign... I say that rates a hollow pip on your collar.

    He was not reduced to acting ensign. He was an ensign. In "Unimatrix Zero", he was promoted. Like Tuvok was, and like Harry should have been.

    Still going on in "Ex Post Facto", nine episodes in. One of many indications of how clumsy Voyager's showrunners were.
     
  11. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    Tom Paris:

    Prior to 2368: Graduates Starfleet Academy, commissioned as an ensign on the USS Exeter, promoted to lieutenant junior grade.
    2368: Discharged from Starfleet after his involvement in the death of several cadets comes to light.
    2371: Reinstated at his previous rank by Captain Janeway.
    2375: Reduced in rank to ensign by Captain Janeway.
    2376: Reinstated to the rank of lieutenant junior grade by Captain Janeway.

    Tuvok:

    Prior to 2349: Reinstated in Starfleet at the rank of Ensign, serves on various starships.
    2349: Transferred to Starfleet Command.
    Between 2349-2371: Promoted to Lieutenant.
    2374: (Field?) Promoted to Lieutenant Commander.

    Tom Paris was granted the rank of Lieutenant JG by Starfleet Command, Janeway reinstated this and never promoted him beyond this rank, although she did briefly remove it.
    Tuvok was granted the rank of Lieutenant by Starfleet Command, Janeway chose to promote him beyond this, possibly as a field promotion (ala Wesley) that would not follow him off Voyager unless ratified by Starfleet Command.
    Kim was granted the rank of Ensign by Starfleet Command, Janeway chose not to promote him beyond this for reasons that are unclear in universe.
     
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  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I had thought Tom was a full lieutenant.

    That means that its a shuffle whether Tom or B'Elanna was Tuvok's XO in Voy Resolutions, even though it kinda looks like Kes is his first officer.

    Although Carey has to be a full Lieutenant?

    He'd been in Starfleet since before TNG Justice.
     
  13. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Reasons that are unclear in or out of universe. This isn't like Will Riker staying a first officer even though he was shown to be a highly capable Captain in BoBW. That did have a legitimate out-of-universe reason for happening: Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes were both popular. But there is NOTHING that Harry Kim did in the show that he could not have done as a lieutenant JG.
     
  14. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    the XO is not necessarily the highest ranking officer after the captain. This is shown in TNG when Riker considers Data or Worf as his XO and most recently when Tilly is made first officer while being an ensign even if there are full lieutenants and possibly lt.commanders on board.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The XO's Job is to manage the crew.

    17 departments on Voyager make a report every day. One copy goes to Tuvok, who deals to the trouble makers, and one copy goes to Chakotay, who decides if anything from those 17 reports is worth telling the Captain. He probably also makes a "one page summery" from those reports, that Janeway does not have time to read. All she really needs is a thumbs up every day, and faith that Chuckles is not underplaying anything important.

    If the XO does not have rank, higher ranked officers can tell them to piss up a rope.

    So maybe a ship can operate well if there is less than 10 people who outrank the XO... Who is let's not forget in charge of promotions. The XO can demote anyone with superior rank, or promote themselves if they need to. Although, I imagine that the XO "and the counselor" make suggestions about crew advancement, that the Captain signs into law without reading, because of trust and faith, since the commendations on hundreds of petty officers is minutia a Captain does not have time for.

    In the real world the XO does not have to be second in the chain of command... But have we seen it in Star Trek perhaps other than Kirk's Enterprise in the movie era when most of his crew were Captain?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  16. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    Actually, that's literally the definition of executive/first officer.

    The "chain of command" is the officers entitled and qualified to take command of the ship in the absence of the commanding officer. The most senior of these holds the title of Executive Officer, First Officer, First Mate, Chief Officer or similar.

    On the other hand, there may be officers outside the "chain of command" like stores officers, legal officers, medical officers et al who are not entitled to take command who may on paper outrank the XO, although Crusher and Troi do throw something of a spanner in the works re: LCDR Data as Second Officer.
     
  17. Oddish

    Oddish Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Given that Tuvok didn't put on a proper command uniform in "Resolutions", it seems unlikely that he designated anyone as his first officer. I can think of some potential choices, though:

    1. Tom. He was the senior officer on the command track, and a former Starfleet officer, but also served the Maquis.

    2. B'Elanna. One of the smartest and most capable people on the ship, but unlikely. She's an academy dropout and a Maquis, and Tuvok would recognize that she needed to be in the engine room.

    3. Kim. Had he not had that OOC meltdown on the bridge, Harry would have been a surprisingly logical candidate. He was a highly intelligent and capable Starfleet officer who had already done lieutenant level work for two years. And, given that there was no other officer above ○● rank, Tuvok would have only needed to promote him to ○○, a mere two grades. Or one, given that Harry should have been ○● by then anyway.

    DarkHorse: Joe Carey. He was a Starfleet officer, senior to Kim, and not really necessary in engineering with B'Elanna running the show.
     
  18. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Commodore Commodore

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    Tom seems the most likely. I'd say Carey is more likely than Kim.
     
  19. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Harry was 7 years and ensign, while Hoshi was 10 years an ensign (per These Are The Voyages). Ensign is a transitory rank. No one stays in it longer than 2-3 years or however long it takes for a person to do their job. After your allotted time, everyone gets automatically promoted to the next rank. Lt. Jr. Someone needed to tell Berman how ranks work.

    Same with Riker with after BOBW. Riker should’ve kept his rank as captain. He was promoted during a tour. The same way how Geordi and Worf started TNG as LT. Junior Grade and both finished TNG as LT. Commanders.

    Riker was XO of the Enterprise. He didn’t need to remain a commander to do that job. Being the same rank as Picard wouldn’t change anything. As chain of command would keep Picard as CO.

    Riker would eventually need to move on after being promoted. That normally happens after a tour is concluded. Options for a person in Riker’s position would be to accept an administrative position at Starfleet (jockey a desk), get his own ship (after Wolf 359 that would be a long wait), take command of a star base or satellite facility (a la DS9 or Babylon 5), or keep your current job as XO and complete your tour of duty.
     
  20. Takeru

    Takeru Space Police Commodore

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    Why do you think your real life knowledge applies to a fictional future? Ranks and promotions in the Star Trek universe don't work how they do in real life, that's not a problem.
     
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