I've recently started re-watching DS9 all the way from the beginning and surprisingly I've found myself getting angry at the little people randomly dissing the Federation as though it were some weak, cowardly entity. What specifically set off this rant was the three-part "Circle" arc at the beginning of Season 2 of DS9 when the group of anti-alien Bajorans attempt to retake DS9 and purge Bajor of all non-Bajorans. That's all fine and good but what set off my rant was the comment one of the Bajorans made that "Minister Jaro's prediction was correct, the Federation has tucked its tail between its legs.". Yes, the Federation may have ceded DS9 to avoid bloodshed and because it had no legal claim on the station (and was civilized enough to recognize that) but "tucked its tail between its legs"? Really? I understand that the group was playing off the Federation's peace-loving nature but I don't see that as reason to call them cowardly. It's not like the Federation is particularly weak, in fact, in my opinion, I think it's pretty damn powerful. The Defiant alone could probably win against whatever Bajor could throw at it much less an Intrepid or Galaxy-class ship (even a Constitution would probably be a serious threat). And for that matter, would the Bajorans have killed Federation citizens (including Starfleet) they found on the station? I would think they would be a bit concerned about actually murdering citizens of a galactic power, even one as benevolent as the Federation. Anyway, I know I'm just ranting here but there has to be some truth to my logic.
Why does everyone bash the Federation?
- Thread starter rajrajmarley
- Start date
The opening seasons of DS9 are set during a 'soft' period in Federation and Starfleet history. Peace is the norm, which is why the Federation has been sending out "floating hotels" like the Enterprise-D, complete with families. The only major conflict has been with the Borg, at Wolf 359, and that was one-sided: one Borg ship destroyed a fleet of forty starships, and Earth itself escaped destruction only thanks to Picard's assimilation.
From the Bajoran perspective, consider the Federation's last major war, with the Cardassians. The Federation fought the Cardassians for years and the war ended in a draw, with a treaty that seems more advantageous to the Cardassians than the Federation. From an outside perspective, this isn't particularly impressive -- especially to a world of resistance fighters who kept fighting the Cardassians until they finally left.
So, while the Federation may be big, prosperous, and potentially strong, some may see it as functionally impotent in light of its near-defeat by the Borg and its inability to completely curb Cardassian expansionism. This is not helped by the Federation's ideals of peace and diplomacy, which may make it look like a large, soft target.
Of course, the Dominion War proves that when push comes to shove, the Federation isn't nearly as soft as it seems.
From the Bajoran perspective, consider the Federation's last major war, with the Cardassians. The Federation fought the Cardassians for years and the war ended in a draw, with a treaty that seems more advantageous to the Cardassians than the Federation. From an outside perspective, this isn't particularly impressive -- especially to a world of resistance fighters who kept fighting the Cardassians until they finally left.
So, while the Federation may be big, prosperous, and potentially strong, some may see it as functionally impotent in light of its near-defeat by the Borg and its inability to completely curb Cardassian expansionism. This is not helped by the Federation's ideals of peace and diplomacy, which may make it look like a large, soft target.
Of course, the Dominion War proves that when push comes to shove, the Federation isn't nearly as soft as it seems.
A couple of thoughts on the matter:
-Obviously it's just a way to build drama. Having other people make anti-Federation slurs is a lot more interesting than everyone conceding that the Federation is all powerful.
-It could be compared to people today in small "poor" countries dissing larger richer countries, calling the people from these countries soft and weak, not knowing what it means to work, even though if war broke out between these two countries, the larger richer one would likely have the advantage.
-Obviously it's just a way to build drama. Having other people make anti-Federation slurs is a lot more interesting than everyone conceding that the Federation is all powerful.
-It could be compared to people today in small "poor" countries dissing larger richer countries, calling the people from these countries soft and weak, not knowing what it means to work, even though if war broke out between these two countries, the larger richer one would likely have the advantage.
Part of the problem was that it's pretty obvious that the Federation was "going easy" on the Cardassians, likely for political and philosophical reasons. The Federation, through Starfleet, could have brought to bear against the Cardassians the same level of forces that it's mobilized against the Dominion. Multiple full sized fleets, composed of several hundred capital starships. The Federation might also have invoked it's treaty with the Klingons to bring the Empires battlecrusiers and BoP's into the conflict. It's probable that the Cardassians could have been defeated, and even subjugated, quickly.
This didn't happen. Again for political and philosophical reasons.
Instead (apparently) the Federation choose to involved a minimum number of starships and "gave diplomacy a chance." Resulting in a protracted hot and cold series of wars. During this same time period, the Cardassians were tormenting and killing the Bajorian people. So the derisive opinion the some Bajorians might have of the Federation is perhaps understandable.
Also, keep in mind that the Bajoran situation was more complex than it seemed. Bajor was officially annexed by the Cardassians meaning that the Bajoran government at the time must have signed some formal agreement legitimizing the Occupation. So while the rebels could go on about it being all brutal and awful, agreed-upon Galactic Law between the major powers probably meant that the Feds still had to respect that Bajor was an official Cardassian world and not a conquered one. So it wasn't like they could sweep in and wipe them all out without some kind of intergalactic political violation.
It's always en vogue for someone to bash a nation--especially a major power--for its various foreign policies, especially if that person disagrees with those policies or feel that they should do a much better job doing them, IMO.
And it's a tradition to pick on the fat kid too...
And it's a tradition to pick on the fat kid too...
To be fair, most nations, on some level, deserve it.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
That would be because in recent times, the Federation's policy redefined the word 'appeasement'.
The recent Cardassian War - and the treaty that ended it - being an ovbious example.
Frankly, at least in the last century, the Federation 'tucking its tail between its legs', for whatever reasons - cowardice or appeasement - was the standard modus operandi.
This was typical of most Bajorans to see the Federation as this though.
[FONT=Arial]"I can tell you one thing for certain. The Cardassians are the enemy, not your own colonists, and if Starfleet can't understand that, then the Federation is even more naive than I already think it is".
This is is coming from Kira, the Bajoran liaison officer to the Federation! Just because the Federation could wipe out Bajor doesnt mean there isnt a grain of truth in what the Bajorans thought.
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[FONT=Arial]"I can tell you one thing for certain. The Cardassians are the enemy, not your own colonists, and if Starfleet can't understand that, then the Federation is even more naive than I already think it is".
This is is coming from Kira, the Bajoran liaison officer to the Federation! Just because the Federation could wipe out Bajor doesnt mean there isnt a grain of truth in what the Bajorans thought.
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Of course the Bajorans would see it that way, they took any chance they got to insult the Cardassians and if it meant insulting Starfleet/the Feds in the process than it's worth it. And being a hardened terrorist means she's committed acts that would make nearly everyone except similar extremists seem "naive".
Exactly. I just imagine any prevailing body of society being loved by every single thing in creation. Any number of reasons can exist for discontent. It can go from simple jealousy to some very real problems that aren't being addressed by that prevailing body.
I agree with T'Girl that the Federation's dislike of open warfare has made it appear weak and that had they taken the war with Cardassia seriously, I'm sure it would've been over in no time. In TNG's Wounded, I think it was, a Nebula defeated a Cardy "warship" with its shields down so what could a Galaxy do? Hopefully now that the Dominion war has shown what the Federation is capable of, random people are no longer willing to just randomly start attacking Federation interests (Shinzon posed a legitimate threat so I'll allow that).
That's exactly it. The Prime Directive prevented the Federation from interfering in the occupation.
Part of the problem was that it's pretty obvious that the Federation was "going easy" on the Cardassians, likely for political and philosophical reasons. The Federation, through Starfleet, could have brought to bear against the Cardassians the same level of forces that it's mobilized against the Dominion. Multiple full sized fleets, composed of several hundred capital starships. The Federation might also have invoked it's treaty with the Klingons to bring the Empires battlecrusiers and BoP's into the conflict. It's probable that the Cardassians could have been defeated, and even subjugated, quickly.
This didn't happen. Again for political and philosophical reasons.
Instead (apparently) the Federation choose to involved a minimum number of starships and "gave diplomacy a chance." Resulting in a protracted hot and cold series of wars. During this same time period, the Cardassians were tormenting and killing the Bajorian people. So the derisive opinion the some Bajorians might have of the Federation is perhaps understandable.
But the war with the Cardiassians wasn't a Total War situation; they weren't fighting for the survival of their way of life. O'Brien repeatedly called the conflict "the border wars", which suggests to be it was a series of skirmishes over disputed territories on the Cardassian border. That the eventual peace treaty led to a demilitarised zone between the two powers is clear evidence of this.
There was never any need to mobilise fleets on that scale, because they were never in a situation of all-out war.
Also, bear in mind that the end of the Cardassian War came about on the heels of Wolf 359. Where throughout seasons 4 and 5 of TNG we had Admirals telling Picard that the Starfleet cannot handle a sustained conflict at the moment at about the same time the Cardassian War backstory comes to light.
I believe the peace treaty with the Cardassians grew out of that very same fear.
I believe the peace treaty with the Cardassians grew out of that very same fear.
According to The Wounded, the peace treaty was signed a year previously, during the third season and therefore before the battle at Wolf 359. Of course, during that year Starfleet was expecting an attack from the Borg, so that may have motivated them to try to patch things up and make peace with the Cardassians, as you suggest.
Yeah, and the Romulans were dicking about around the Neutral Zone, further spicing things up.
The aim of any governing body is to have peaceful relations with its neighbours, trade and make military alliances so that they can defend each other in times of need. Problem s occur when you are making peace with your old enimies and seen to be soft on would be aggressors which happened in DS9, buddies with Kilingons (fragile peace) and treading careful with the Cardasians, it is one ofthose situations where the Federation can't win, and we have to remember that there are many planets belonging to the Federation not just earth.
