Why does Abrams keeps giving the middle finger to Trek fans?

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I enjoyed a great deal of DS9; although I felt that the later seasons became more of WWII in space and relayed on old war movie cliches.

The series was always borrowing the plots and premises of old movies. I did like some episodes - "Far Beyond The Stars" is my favorite, and I liked a lot of the Ferengi stories better than most DS9 fans appear to. They were often funny, Armin Shimerman is brilliant, and as he once observed Quark was the only regular on the series who was permitted the full range of human behavior and emotions.

"Far Beyond The Stars" is also my favorite of the series with the pilot, "Emissary," coming second and "The Vistor," third. All the Ferengi episodes were great because it showed that DS9 didn't take itself as seriously as the other ModTreks (TNG/VOY). In that way, DS9 was like TOS.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

You know, I think people have really forgotten what Abrams has actually said about Trek and its weaknesses and are now crediting him with saying he dislikes or hates the whole thing.

I think it is also largely misunderstood how frequently he talks and mentions this so called "hate" for Trek and his fans.
Reading this thread one gets the impression he spends 24/7 giving interviews and badmouthing Trek.

You're right.

When I heard Abrams' comment about not being a Star trek fan before he started this project, I just took that comment at face value -- that he was NOT a fan. That's all -- "Not a fan", nothing else.

Saying you're not a fan of something is not the same as saying you hate something. I'm not a fan of the TV show Desperate Housewives, but I don't necessarily hate it -- I'm just not a fan of it. I can appreciate the fact that it might be a good TV show that some people enjoy, but I'm not a fan.

I'm also not a fan of NBA basketball. I don't hate the NBA, I just don't watch it. I don't loathe NBA fans or feel like "giving the finger" to people who enjoy the NBA...I'm simply not a fan.

People are over-reacting to Abrams' comment. This seems like another example of people trying too hard to find reasons to hate this film.

 

[Vance]

People are over-reacting to Abrams' comment. This seems like another example of people trying too hard to find reasons to hate this film.

Well, I'm going to hit the way back machine a little bit, and talk to you about a television show called Beast Machines. If you're not familiar with the show, it was the follow-up to the Transformers show Beast Wars, which was incredibly popular and revitalized that franchise in the middle 1990s.

When Bob Skir was approached to do the new show, he told Hasbro, point blank, that "he was not a fan of Transformers". Now, he didn't mean "I just don't like the show", he actually found Transformers to be offensive (something he would clarify later). Hasbro hired him anyway to get a 'new approach' to Transformers to get that Power Rangers audience.

This didn't make Bob a bad person, and indeed he's not. But he was the wrong person for the job, or at least went the wrong direction to take the property. Beast Machines did so badly that Hasbro gave up on the line midway through its second year and actually let Japan's Takara (who was failing it its own right) take the franchise lead for the next several years, up until the Movie came out.

Now, when Abrams says "I'm not a fan", is he saying he's indifferent or hostile? Unfortunately, Abram's other statements indicate that he's hostile to the franchise. Now, it's important to note that this may NOT be a bad thing, depending on what he actually does with the film. But when it's clear he's saying "I dislike Star Trek", it's both a legitimate cause for concern about the property, and also intellectually dishonest to claim that he means something other than what he's actually saying.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

^
^^Point taken, but I still think people are misrepresenting Abrams' opinion.

I don't think he ever said he dislikes Star Trek. He may dislike certain aspects of the way various Star Trek TV shows and movies have been executed, but then again I dislike some of the things that Star Trek writers, producers, and directors have done in the past.

His "I'm not a fan" statement and those things he said that were a little critical of the franchise are -- in my opinion -- two separate and unrelated statements.

A non-fan film-maker can appreciate the "Star Trek Universe" and STILL look back at the past 10 years and say that Star Trek as a TV show and film franchise has some problems. Heck, there are even problems -- from the standpoint of a film-maker or screenwriter -- with ALL of Star Trek, including TOS.

I think there are plenty of things about Star Trek that needs to be fixed, and a fresh set of eyes like Abrams is more likely to find those items that need to be fixed. However, being critical of some aspects of the Star Trek franchise is not the same as having contempt for it.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Unfortunately, Abram's other statements indicate that he's hostile to the franchise.

But when it's clear he's saying "I dislike Star Trek",

I'm sorry but I have yet to see Abrams say anything that would make me reach those conclusions.
Unless I've missed some interviews and I think I haven't.

And why are focusing just on Abrams anyway ?
Even if he is not 100% in love with Trek his close and trusted colleagues and writers are Trek fans.
That certainly has to count somewhere

^
^^Point taken, but I still think people are misrepresenting Abrams' opinion.

I don't think he ever said he dislikes Star Trek. He may dislike certain aspects of the way various Star Trek TV shows and movies have been executed, but then again I dislike some of the things that Star Trek writers, producers, and directors have done in the past.

His "I'm not a fan" statement and those things he said that were a little critical of the franchise are -- in my opinion -- two separate and unrelated statements.

A non-fan film-maker can appreciate the "Star Trek Universe" and STILL look back at the past 10 years and say that Star Trek as a TV show and film franchise has some problems. Heck, there are even problems -- from the standpoint of a film-maker or screenwriter -- with ALL of Star Trek, including TOS.

I think there are plenty of things about Star Trek that needs to be fixed, and a fresh set of eyes like Abrams is more likely to find those items that need to be fixed. However, being critical of some aspects of the Star Trek franchise is not the same as having contempt for it.

I agree completely with Jackson_Roykirk... well said

 

[M'Sharak]

<snip>

Now, when Abrams says "I'm not a fan", is he saying he's indifferent or hostile? Unfortunately, Abram's other statements indicate that he's hostile to the franchise. Now, it's important to note that this may NOT be a bad thing, depending on what he actually does with the film. But when it's clear he's saying "I dislike Star Trek", it's both a legitimate cause for concern about the property, and also intellectually dishonest to claim that he means something other than what he's actually saying.

Bob Skir's feelings about Transformers are one thing. I never watched any of the shows, so I have no opinion about any of them one way or the other.

Abrams, as far I recall, said in the beginning that he was a Star Wars fan when he was growing up and that other people he knew ("the smart ones" are the words he's used, I think) were the ones who watched Star Trek. I never got the impression that he disliked Trek in any way, only that he hadn't followed it very closely. That's all I think "not a fan" ever meant to him.

 

[JoeZhang]

Can someone provide a quote of him saying he dislikes Star Trek (rather than the quote we've all seen where he says he wasn't a fan?)

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

When Abrams says something about the "Star Trek" franchise that isn't true, I'll fret. A little. I promise.

 

[Vance]

^
^^Point taken, but I still think people are misrepresenting Abrams' opinion.

All I'm saying is that it matters, but it may not be a deal-breaker. Harve Bennet, after all, wasn't a fan (and was mildly hostile to Trek) before his marathon viewing of it for TWOK, and he pretty much pulled the franchise from the dustbin.

I don't think he ever said he dislikes Star Trek.

It would be stupid, even professionally suicidal, for him to outright say that, but he's had enough statements that it's easily understood (and, again, not liking something is a lot different than 'hates it forevers bagginsis!). Now, disliking the franchise over the past 20 years is neither a crime, nor does it disqualify him from making a good Star Trek movie (see above). But, the fact that he's using it as a talking point is a lot more disturbing to me.

 

[JoeZhang]

It would be stupid, even professionally suicidal, for him to outright say that, but he's had enough statements that it's easily understood...

that you are a mind-reader?

 

[Vance]

that you are a mind-reader?

Yes.

 

[Qonos]

I don't Know I liked Beast Machines, the ending was what most people flipped over the whole Cybertron becoming a Techno-organic world, and this ending pretty much ended the G1 continutiy (G1, BW, and Beast Machines were all in the same universe seeing as much of g1's back story was used in both) and the fans really didn't appreicaite that.

The thing is we didn't see it coming until he sprung it on us.

Skir's storytelling is top notch and yes his direction for the continuity wasn't what a lot of people wanted, but truthfully Beast Machines wouldn't have been so maligned if it had had a better ending.

As far as Star Trek is going, We haven't seen the final product and There's nothing in Abrams background that states he HATES it.. As not being a fan doesn't alwasy mean hating something. I know many people who aren't Fans of star trek who don't hate it, they just don't find it interesting.

 

[Therin of Andor]

If they’d just admitted from the get-go that this was going to be a ground floor reboot, there wouldn’t be nearly as much drama going on around here and other boards. The thing would be judged on its own merits and faults, without this implied threat to the already established continuity.

You reckon?????

Nah, they'd be shouting "How dare JJ reboot ST!"

And if he didn't, they'd be saying, "60s Star Trek won't work on the big screen in 2009!"

But this “not really a reboot” feldercarb, trying to reshuffle the deck while still claiming an attachment to what’s come before (and by doing so, overwriting it in the official record), THAT is where we start getting into “fightin’ words” territory.

Why worry? You're not planning to see it anyway. Even if the whole thing was a reboot, you're not planning to see it.

Allow me to just be blunt: WHO IN THE HELL DO THESE BOZOS THINK THEY ARE!?!

People who are trying to bring Star Trek a bigger audience, 'cos the old audience has been dyin' off. ST hasn't been bringing young people to the franchise in big numbers since TNG finished up.

I particularly resent being expected to just shut up, get in line, and hand over my money for a product

JJ already knows you're not going. And so do we.

 

[Vance]

I don't Know I liked Beast Machines, the ending was what most people flipped over the whole Cybertron becoming a Techno-organic world, and this ending pretty much ended the G1 continutiy (G1, BW, and Beast Machines were all in the same universe seeing as much of g1's back story was used in both) and the fans really didn't appreicaite that.

Well, A version of G1... it gets messy.

But, really, my problem with Beast Machines was that it was insanely random in quality. You went from a pretty good episode to a couple of episodes of absolute crap, back to a good one. But I meant only to use an example of 'going the wrong direction'. Bob Forward and Larry Ditillo weren't fans of G1 either (they were more 'serious' science-fiction screenplay authors), but both created Beast Wars. Like I said, it could go both ways.

Skir's storytelling is top notch and yes his direction for the continuity wasn't what a lot of people wanted, but truthfully Beast Machines wouldn't have been so maligned if it had had a better ending.

Not really. Beast Machines was already pulled off-market in first season. Again, off-topic, but the show earned its place well before the ending. The ending (which actually didn't bother me that much) was really just 'the final straw' for a lot of people.

As far as Star Trek is going, We haven't seen the final product and There's nothing in Abrams background that states he HATES it.. As not being a fan doesn't alwasy mean hating something. I know many people who aren't Fans of star trek who don't hate it, they just don't find it interesting.

And again, there's a difference between 'dislike' and 'HATES IT FOREVERS'. I think that when Abrams states his dislike, people either want to say 'he doesn't hate Star Trek' or 'He hates Star Trek' immediately. He's hostile to it, yes, as a Star Wars fan, as he's said. But, there's gradients there. The open question is what that means to the final product.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Why worry? You're not planning to see it anyway. Even if the whole thing was a reboot, you're not planning to see it.

Apologies to STC: Nailed it.

Allow me to just be blunt: WHO IN THE HELL DO THESE BOZOS THINK THEY ARE!?!

People who are trying to bring Star Trek a bigger audience, 'cos the old audience has been dyin' off. ST hasn't been bringing young people to the franchise in big numbers since TNG finished up.

Man, we lose control of the club if just anybody likes "Star Trek." That would be dreadful.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Now, when Abrams says "I'm not a fan", is he saying he's indifferent or hostile? Unfortunately, Abram's other statements indicate that he's hostile to the franchise.

Many people on this board are hostile to the franchise.

 

[Vance]

Many people on this board are hostile to the franchise.

True, and I know a lot of them would produce 'suck' if given the chance. (To say nothing of those people who, as far as I can tell, actually just hate Star Trek to begin with...)

 

[Vigilance]

Now, when Abrams says "I'm not a fan", is he saying he's indifferent or hostile? Unfortunately, Abram's other statements indicate that he's hostile to the franchise. Now, it's important to note that this may NOT be a bad thing, depending on what he actually does with the film. But when it's clear he's saying "I dislike Star Trek", it's both a legitimate cause for concern about the property, and also intellectually dishonest to claim that he means something other than what he's actually saying.

[FONT=arial]Abrams: I fell in love with the relationships between the characters. I fell in love with the characters. The idea of – it's so funny because you hear something so often and it loses it's meaning. But "space, the final frontier" – if you actually consider space as uncharted territory there's something about the idea of these people, because any ship flying by isn't going to get you excited. It's who's on the ship that matters. I feel like these characters actually going out into that nothingness and finding something is great. Having lived with it now and gotten to know the characters and worked with amazing actors who portrayed them, it made me fall in love with that notion, that idea that for some reason never struck me the way that "Twilight Zone" did.

No, he doesn't hate the franchise.

[/FONT]

 

[God Magnus]

Beast Machines lasted two seasons, and the toy line lasted two years. It wasn't a roaring success, but it wasn't a horrid failure either. It kept the line going long enough for "Robots in Disguise" to fill in a one year gap before Hasbro and Takara developed the Unicron Trilogy together (it was a co-production, not simply a Takara production imported into the US).

That said - when the heck did Abrams ever say "I do not like Star Trek"?! I've seen this thread after thread but never seen the article where he said that.

 

[trekkerguy]

Now, when Abrams says "I'm not a fan", is he saying he's indifferent or hostile? Unfortunately, Abram's other statements indicate that he's hostile to the franchise. Now, it's important to note that this may NOT be a bad thing, depending on what he actually does with the film. But when it's clear he's saying "I dislike Star Trek", it's both a legitimate cause for concern about the property, and also intellectually dishonest to claim that he means something other than what he's actually saying.

Abrams: I fell in love with the relationships between the characters. I fell in love with the characters. The idea of – it's so funny because you hear something so often and it loses it's meaning. But "space, the final frontier" – if you actually consider space as uncharted territory there's something about the idea of these people, because any ship flying by isn't going to get you excited. It's who's on the ship that matters. I feel like these characters actually going out into that nothingness and finding something is great. Having lived with it now and gotten to know the characters and worked with amazing actors who portrayed them, it made me fall in love with that notion, that idea that for some reason never struck me the way that "Twilight Zone" did.

No, he doesn't hate the franchise.

/thread