Why Doctor Who is a MESS

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Shaka Zulu, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don’t think stories should be made to sell toys, but selling toys shows the kids are watching and that it’s engagin with their imaginations. That they want to tell their own stories with your characters. That they, in some way, have taken ownership of them, because they want them.

    Selling figures or whathave you to adults is different.
    Who isn’t always a merchandise heavy show, certainly action figures were near nonexistenet at various points in its history, but then Star Wars hasn’t really invented that concept for much of it. The modern era though...that’s different.
     
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  2. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

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    I made a point in the He-Man thread about that show being made as a means to sell toys. Still a fun cartoon, even now.
     
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  3. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Admiral Admiral

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    Companies are going to maximize every bit of profit. It’s one of the reasons I’m glad PBS is out there, it’s nice having a non profit creating stories. Though they also have merch, but it doesn’t seem to affect what stories they tell.
     
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  4. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In a sense I agree with this insofar as it represents an ideal, something aspirational.

    However, I don't believe for a second that people don't go about their lives acutely aware of the impact of prejudice and how they are members of a "category" no matter your good intentions. Peoples' experiences do vary and yes that means there's lots of room for individual nuance but nonetheless the female experience of our world will inevitably be very different from the male and so forth. We cannot operate as though the society we inhabit does not exist, or even worse is very different to observed reality.

    That being said with regard to the Doctor the primary difference we should always have brought to our attention regardless of the actor used to to portray them is that they are not human. Female/male/black/white should always be secondary (or as I think you said earlier, tertiary) to the experience of being a total outsider on the basis of species and I do rather hope JWs' gender is underplayed as a statement precisely because doing so is the best statement of all.
     
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  5. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    Had toy manufacturing been more further along like in the USA, at that time. The UK was still rebuilding from the aftermath of WWII. Took 20 years to get back right. But they could've released a TARDIS playset based on the Edge of Destruction. I could imagine how wonderful that would have been. Maybe MEGO could've picked up on it in the late 70s too.. that also would have been a huge hit I'm sure at that time
     
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  6. Gavin70

    Gavin70 Commander Red Shirt

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    Same with The Smurfs and Transformers. Both created as long form TV ads for their products.
     
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  7. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Trends didn’t work that way in the UK....we had toy manufacturing (we also had Hong Kong) at the height of Dalekmania we were up to our ears in Daleks (at least according to the history books...) but ‘dolls were for girls’ so ‘action figures’ and even ‘playsets’ were things that came with Star Wars pretty much (at which point we got Denys Fisher Who dolls....)
    For boys, the only things close to this were ‘Action Man’ and ‘Tommy Gunn’ (which are basically Dolls that are squaddies. No Malibu party outfit, but my dads old Tommy does have the bearskin hat uniform of the palace as an option...and lots and lots of guns.)
    Daleks were easy...they are like cars. All boys toys in this period are based either around warfare or cars. It’s just the way this world worked back then. James Bond has never to my knowledge had an action figure...even in the every-kid-watching-TV-loves-Roger-Moore era. We had watches, and toy cars. Vehicles always did well...Bond...Gerry Anderson series...

    It’s very much a cultural thing.

    A Tardis playset?
    The nightmares boy children had in the sixties convincing their Dad that Tommy Gunn wasn’t a doll (it so is) they aren’t going to get a dollshouse even if it starred shouting sergeant Hartnell.

    This may all seem horribly sexist, with boys toys and girls toys, but to an extent those divisions still exist somewhere in the mix, but back then, they really really did.


    Action figures are pretty much a post Lucas thing. But now they are a very useful gauge of interest...look at Tracey Island in the Thunderbirds renaissance of the nineties. Even the flipping Blue Peter make did the equivalent of selling out.

    The hot toy last Christmas wasn’t oddly glowing and Phallic, nor did it have BBC on the packaging. At least not in the kids market that I know of.
     
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  8. Gingerbread Demon

    Gingerbread Demon I love Star Trek Discovery Premium Member

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    Bite your tongue :)

    Donna was one of the best companions in new who.

    Did not like John Simms Master but loved the heck out of Missy, she was crazy, zany, psychotic, and fun. Long live Missy.

    As for new companions Clara should have stayed down that hole Missy shoved her in The Witch's Familiar. Clara who?

    Now had they kept Dalek Clara as a companion I'd be down with that.

    Loved the Capaldi run.

    I have great confidence in Jodie Whittaker.
     
  9. Gavin70

    Gavin70 Commander Red Shirt

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    I wasn't a fan of Simm's Master until his last performance, which (I thought) really captured the classic Master. Missy is, of course, totally awesome.
     
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  10. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    That's just the people who comment on the articles at that site, not the writers of that site.
     
  11. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    Disagree. The editor-in-chief of the site wrote a review of the Captain Marvel movie, claiming it was misandric and anti-male and cited the fact that the movie showed Nick Fury doing dishes as "proof". This review of his review is great. "The five worst male bashing elements in Captain Marvel according to some dingus."

    http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2...s-in-captain-marvel-according-to-some-dingus/
     
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  12. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    Said by a woman who is the biggest misandrist radical feminist ever (I don't agree with the review on the other site, but I like her even less.)

    It did happen, but only in the UK. Pity, as it would've been cool to have the Doctor meet up with the Enterprise crew....
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  13. EnderAKH

    EnderAKH Commodore Premium Member

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    Just to be clear...we're both talking about CoSmic Book News, and not Comic Book News, right? Because CoSmic Book News is awful:
    https://cosmicbook.news/diversity-destroying-mcu-marvel-producer-future?amp
    https://cosmicbook.news/robert-downey-jr-returning-mcu?amp
     
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  14. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    Oh gosh yes! The 70s had the TARDIS, Leela and K-9,
    [​IMG]
    I wish I would have had them both when I was a kid. Would have loved to have the TARDIS on the Bridge meeting the TOS crew..
    [​IMG]
    Or even here..
    [​IMG]
    I always felt tho, that They should have done a Console room set.
    Or Blake's 7 set. would have been awesome to mix all my favs up in fun.
    Of course by the time those things got my way they were 2nd hand from yard sales around the mid 80s, when Doctor Who was on PBS. It had a pretty decent following in my neck of the woods.
     
  15. Haggis and tatties

    Haggis and tatties Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^^That moonbase Alpha set looks pretty good, really captures that 70s look of the show.
     
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  16. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    Indeed. These were the cool toys before my time as a kid. Tho some were able to be found at garage sales throughout the early 80s. I think that Had Doctor Who had more sets like that from MEGO and more action figures based on the monsters of the series, and multiple docs to own and play with, the show in the early 80s and Late 70s could have taken off a bit bigger here in the States, likewise it may have made it more of a merchandise super power in the UK.

    But back to the topic at hand, Season 11 and the toy sales have been abysmal.. The 13th Doctor is mainly for collectors who want to have all doctors in their sets, and for the most part, her toys marketed to Girls hasn't taken off as well as the BBC had hoped. While there are female Doctor who fans, and fans of the Female Doctor, the demo isn't or wasn't ever as large as the male fanbase. It's changed a bit, but also lost a bit of fans as well. The current toy sales are an issue. People want to deny it, because it doesn't fit their narrative of the show with Chibnall at the helm being a success. But overall. The numbers didn't look good for both the 13th Doctor's action figures and toys, and also for the ratings on a night with virtually no competition. Now with a move to Sat.. The BBC may regret that, especially if Season 12 isn't as well received as 11 was.
     
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  17. Gingerbread Demon

    Gingerbread Demon I love Star Trek Discovery Premium Member

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    Well looks like the rumour mill will win this fight and the angsty male fans will crow about this if the show fails.

    I'm not happy I like Jodie and loved her series.
     
  18. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    Well as an "angsty Male fan" myself, which honestly if we're told the sex and gender of the DOCTOR shouldn't matter, then my sex and gender as a fan shouldn't matter either with my point of view, for me the execution of the first female Doctor was the issue. Yet, Throwing something like that statement out there at that time lead to immediate shark attacks by self styled moralists who could read your character and soul by texts and words online alone!
    [​IMG]
    While not being necessarily opposed to the idea of a female Doc as it does fall in line with my own spiritual beliefs on reincarnation and past life implications on modern day gender choices or "in-born" feels, it is the way that it was handled that I have grievances about. When the announcement was made way back when, with all the media coverage stirring up controversy, and the automatic lableing of those opposed as a conglomerate of Male bigotry, the writing on the wall was that Season 11 was going to be a load of steaming PC agenda and social justice story telling, at the expense of truly good and magnificent science fiction. The stories were lackluster, boring, and heavily spent on companion feels. Lots of slow corridor conversations about feelings, for reasons, and no real over arching storylines. Subpar acting, I was never a fan of Jodie doing a tenant and smith impression, complete with compulsive nose scrunching, and sonic wagging. For me, again initially, my "angst" was more about what the show ended up proving, was that my initial fear and dread about the new direction was actually right. It was predictable, I mean peoples with that mentality tend to be transparent and their agenda easily predictable. You could have almost made a bet on the outcome of it all. To be frank, the female Doctor could have been an epic restart. But the voices who felt that there was a better way were ignored, and chatized for even suggesting as much, and that is the real failure of it all. People who do matter in all of this were silenced for the most abject and superficial way, simply for not towing the line. (Poor Peter Davison) That is unfortunate, and to get those viewers back is going to have to take some much needed out reach and healing. But for something like that to occur, would require some kind of admittance of fault and a course correction, which I don't foresee happening either by Chibnall or the BBC. I expect season 12 to be just as disappointing (even with Cybers and Jadoon) and would be pleasantly surprised if it wasn't. But that I know isn't likely given the current mindset. I never liked Jodie as an actress. I don't see her as the Doctor, she is more of a cosplay parody of tenant and smith. Tilda Swinton would have been my pick. Make it weird, strange and fantastically outlandish, crazy and a bit dark. I yawned through much of Season 11. Tho the New year special that was a bit better. A female junkyard Dalek didn't quite hit the wow factor for me. I almost felt like I saw that story in so much as it reminded me of the Female Cyberlady from Torchwood. (a cheap Chibnall gimmick akin to the "mystery box" tropes of JJ Abrams. Make the Dalek or Cyberman a female, score!! brilliant writing.. sure.. sure..) As a fan, I was hoping for a lot more. But I got ultimately what I feared most would happen, and like old faithful, the mindset and ideology behind the push for the 1st female Doctor showed up in all its splendor, and well..that's just where we are now, succeed or fail, it's what we have to deal with. Those who love it, will be upset by those who didn't and those who didn't, many unlike me, walked away entirely. I have Long time Doctor who fans I know who don't care anymore, and by the looks of this thread, or Doctor Who section on trekbbs even in season 11 at it's height, the traffic and message counts are much much less then they were back in the Smith days, and early Capaldi. I feel like Doctor Who is back to niche' status, and the current Direction has done nothing to improve or change that aspect.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
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  19. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with much of what you say here, however, I disagree with some also....particularly that the ‘gender’ of Daleks/Cybermen isn’t really a thing. (We have had ‘girl’ Daleks and Cybermen before, and they were implied a long time ago. Amusingly, it is entirely possible that Daleks are genderless prior to the whole Imperial/Renegade faction split. It’s even possible that Arthur Stengos is the first ‘Male’ Dalek we see.) I do think it was a very clumsy thing in the New Year special to ensure ‘girl’ Doctor had ‘girl’ Dalek to fight, but when it became time for the Doctor to be willing to sacrifice the host, it conveniently hopped to Ryan’s Dad. Aside from its cheap melodrama, there is a lot to unpack there about precisely who it’s ok to kill in the stories we see.
    I think worrying less about the gender politics, in all directions, might do the show some favours at the moment.,,it’s not something it’s had to worry about before ( My era of Who had complex female protagonists and antagonists, as well as male, and some that were technically undefined. It also had complex female antagonists. I mean...Battlefield has its flaws in execution, but it knocks the current run into a cocked hat with its approach to gender.)

    In that mixture, (which you are correct, you have fed your enemies with, and some of it will work against you) you definitely hit on something and crystallised it though. The recent series has felt more like Torchwood, or even Sarah Jane Adventures, (or frankly the older, nineties CBBC fare....Dark Season...only not as good. It’s not even Archers Goon good.) than Who, and the New Years special was particularly more in that milieu. It could be a flaw in Chibnalls work that is deeper than I thought.
     
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  20. starsuperion

    starsuperion Commodore Commodore

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    Well see that is the problem isn't it? The fact that this whole new found emphasis on female empowerment at the expense of the male characters has led to writing as such, and that writing is now directed at a specific set of circumstances, of which do not lend to freedom of expression or thought, because the writers now have to confine their writing in a specific type of model. In doing so, they limit the ability to create good stories, in place of stories that are politically correct, or have themes in them. It's one thing to tell a good story. it's another to tell a story set around a particular POV and political theme. I think Science fiction works best when a story or morality play is told in a way that makes a statement without making an obvious statement, or is told in allegorical terms. Modern TV series tend to be more and more on the former side, and are suffering viewership because of it, and turning their IPs who used to appeal to everyone into a show or movie, or franchise that caters to only one segment of the populace. It's not a show for everyone, it's a show for only those who agree with the political message, and that is a recipe for dwindling numbers in any venue.

    It's like the same for merchandise. If the producers of the show wanted to open up to more women, and still bring along the men, I still say they should have made the choice to keep the Doctor male, but missing from the universe. Set up a 3-4 year long stint with Jenny looking for her father, and assuming his title to keep the universe in fear of the Doctor still being around to stop all the villains out there. It would have brought along the men, and still made that appeal to the girls, and some of whom were Tenant fans back in the day, may have come along to see Jenny back in the series, whether briefly to regenerate into a new female time lord body, or to remain as herself while looking for her pops. In this way, everyone has what they wanted and no one is left out, nothing has changed to accommodate another.. What I am saying is, nothing is taken away from any fan really.. only added to it, and in the end it wouldn't have been such a big deal.

    I imagine a little boy playing with his doctor who action figures, and the Doctor's daughter on the hunt for her father.. In his old raggedy TARDIS.. I can see boys and girls buying Jenny's action figure for that. Because in that case, their male identification with the lead of the show is still in tact. except for a very very small portion of the population there isn't that many boys or Men no matter how much the media and TV or commercials try to portray, that identify as female or feminine. It's just a fact that the biggest population of boys and men gravitate to strong male role models and leads. This is inherent in the human psyche as it is natural to want to have a role model that you have something in common with. Sarah Jane was a great female role model. Strong, independent, and smart. really smart. yet, she gets no praise or held up as an icon of feminism because she's not the new thing on the block, and to your point..
    There have always been great female roles in Doctor who. (BUT NOT THE LEAD) which is what they always say.. and yea, that is the case, but the show has lasted 50 years on the air with a short hiatus.. and here now, after all that time, we are being told it was doing it wrong.. and yet now with the opportunity to correct these perceived inequities.. The experiment seems to have failed, as the merchandise sales are way down, the viewing figures were better then Capaldi's last season but overall sucked, and there is a definite divide in the fandom, which now the media and shill access websites are even dropping the so called "vocal minority" and are themselves now admitting there is a divide.. which is funny because the same thing is true for Star Wars and STD.. How about they just write good stories, leave out the divisive PC propaganda and preaching, and get on with great science fiction and character development??
    Now there's a novel idea..