Why Doctor Who is a MESS

[Spot261]

You’re right, it’s an argument I can’t possibly win.

I do suggest however, that past times were not as antediluvian as it is popular to portray, and would also suggest the situation is actually worse now as result of how things have gone in the creative industries for the last ten or twenty years.

As an amusing aside, I would also point out the only successful video game adaptations (videogames themselves making much, much, more money that film for a number of years.) have all had female leads. I am defining success in this case as ‘making money and getting a sequel/fanbase’. Also amusing in this regard is how much hate those films get in some quarters for some reason, with gender never being brought into it.

Female leads wearing catsuits and/or in possession of exaggerated sexual characteristics perchance?

EDIT: I jest, but at least so far one real positive about Whitakkers' tenure has been the fact that no one has slipped into overtly sexualising the character in a way which obviously surpasses her male incarnations.

 

[jaime]

Female leads wearing catsuits and/or in possession of exaggerated sexual characteristics perchance?

EDIT: I jest, but at least so far one real positive about Whitakkers' tenure has been the fact that no one has slipped into overtly sexualising the character in a way which obviously surpasses her male incarnations.

If anything she’s had less sexualisation than the Male Doctors (particularly of late)

I don’t remember any more than the usual amount of catsuits for the related genres. I mean...people may get in a huff about Angelina Jolie in a skintight wetsuit, but she was diving at the time. And there’s that shower scene...but then...Daniel Craig has a shower scene in the exact same film so...

Pretty standard.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Female leads wearing catsuits and/or in possession of exaggerated sexual characteristics perchance?

EDIT: I jest, but at least so far one real positive about Whitakkers' tenure has been the fact that no one has slipped into overtly sexualising the character in a way which obviously surpasses her male incarnations.

Endless procreating on a three decade long honey moon?

 

[jaime]

Endless procreating on a three decade long honey moon?

Is that a Led Zeppelin track?

 

[starsuperion]

That's right, because they have been low budget affairs. Though, don't be the black man in a horror film, you'll be one of the first to die.

But, for the most part, in TV and film, they have made the choice--regardless of genre--to put a white straight male at the lead because they were afraid they wouldn't be able to sell it.

Do you think they saw a person of color for Die Hard?

And it's great that things have changed in the past 30 years, but, per the conversations on this board, people are still freaking out about the idea of a black lead in a movie. How many poster on this board are saying, "they should just make a good movie..." "Casting a minority just to cast a minority is racist!"

Clearly, we are not in a place of parity.



How does one objectively define a "good" character?
Do you think if studios knew exactly how to great "good" characters to have guaranteed success, they would do that?

I don't know why you think making TV and films is so simple as "make a good character" and it will "succeed." How many shows have you watched and loved that simply didn't find an audience?



Who is saying a show fails because of entrenched misogyny? (though, there were the people who said they won't watch a woman play the Doctor, are you talking about them?)



Out of the 20 or so Marvel movies, how many have been led by women? 1. MAYBE you could say 1.5 with the Wasp, who gets second billing. Finally, after ten years, Black Widow finally gets her own movie. That would bring it up to two.

There are few female led projects that get made and fewer still that succeed. And that same is true for films with black actors as the leads.

I bring up the sexism in fandom because it does exist. Look at the reaction to when Whitaker was cast, even your own. It wasn't criticism of Whitaker--a specific person, it was the fact that it was a woman. The complaints were about gender. "How dare they cast a woman to play a shape changing alien in my TV show!"

And I know, you've said, "I'm not sexist" "I don't see sexism" "Or racism," yes, yes, you've said it before. Have you checked with your female friends? Your friends of color? Have you done that yet? Because, you know what? I would have a lot of respect for you if you actually talked to them about their experience in the world rather than suddenly claim "You're just against my point of view! You just hate libertarians! I don't commit acts of sexism!"

Funny how the words "You Claim" are used to insinuate untruthfulness..

Anyhow, the main point I'm trying to make is illustrated above by you. You said I need to ask my people of color friends, my female friends what they think or feel. The thing is, I don't put my friends into categories like that. I mean who does that, really?? To me they're just my friends. Their color, sex, orientation, are of little consequence to me, and likewise with them. I'm sorry, but we just don't base all of our experiences on those terms. Never have, never will. We're just not concerned with such things, particularly when discussing TV, Anime, or comics.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Funny how the words "You Claim" are used to insinuate untruthfulness..

Anyhow, the main point I'm trying to make is illustrated above by you. You said I need to ask my people of color friends, my female friends what they think or feel. The thing is, I don't put my friends into categories like that. I mean who does that, really?? To me they're just my friends. Their color, sex, orientation, are of little consequence to me, and likewise with them. I'm sorry, but we just don't base all of our experiences on those terms. Never have, never will. We're just not concerned with such things, particularly when discussing TV, Anime, or comics.

That's a creative way to never have to learn about someone's life experience, fear of "putting them in a category."

lol.

Good luck with your life.

 

[jaime]

That's a creative way to never have to learn about someone's life experience, fear of "putting them in a category."

lol.

Good luck with your life.

To be fair, that’s not what he said. What he said was that he doesn’t think of his friends in those boxes.

Most of us don’t...it’s only if we end up having to describe them to others that we look for descriptors.

In my case, my best and oldest friend is black.
He is a friend so old I don’t have to ask much about his life experience, because I was there for most of it. The bits I wasn’t there for, he will share if he chooses.

I am pretty sure if I rocked up and said ‘so, what’s it like being black’
I would look like I had turned into a rascist twat.
Conversations even slightly in that area (mainly with other friends, particularly newer friends) seem to be more common place because of how much racism has reared it’s bastard head again, and they are always uncomfortable, because they are always full of assumptions...assumptions all around these days, because we are programmed that way I think. It sucks.

 

[Professor Zoom]

To be fair, that’s not what he said. What he said was that he doesn’t think of his friends in those boxes.

To be fair, I'm less and less interested in what he thinks. He's wrapped himself up in a bubble so he doesn't have to his world view be challenged. For fucks sake, he claims he doesn't see racism or sexism in America.

Most of us don’t...it’s only if we end up having to describe them to others that we look for descriptors.

In my case, my best and oldest friend is black.
He is a friend so old I don’t have to ask much about his life experience, because I was there for most of it. The bits I wasn’t there for, he will share if he chooses.

In my case, my wife is Indian. I've been around her for almost 20 years. To not see her Indian heritage, to not see her gender and her experiences of those who be to not see a huge part of who SHE is.

I am pretty sure if I rocked up and said ‘so, what’s it like being black’
I would look like I had turned into a rascist twat.

Sounds like you're afraid of how he might view you. Have you ever had a conversation about what it's like for him to be a man of color in a predominantly white country? Or is that something that's just not talked about.

Because my wife and I have. Not only is she a person of color, she's also an immigrant. And hearing how SHE experiences America was pretty eye opening for me. I have learned a lot that if it hadn't been pointed out, if she hadn't told me, if i hadn't asked, I wouldn't know and understand.

It took me a long time to notice... far longer than it should've have, that almost immediately upon meeting my wife, strangers would always ask, 'So, where's the best place in town to get Indian food?' No one asks me immediately upon meeting where's the best place to get any sort of food.

Conversations even slightly in that area (mainly with other friends, particularly newer friends) seem to be more common place because of how much racism has reared it’s bastard head again, and they are always uncomfortable, because they are always full of assumptions...assumptions all around these days, because we are programmed that way I think. It sucks.

Because that's right, the best way to change thoughts and feelings about racism is to never ever talk about it. To never ever understand that someone might have a very different experience of this world because of their skin color or gender.

*can't even muster the eye rolling emoji*

Sometimes it's ok to have uncomfortable conversations. Sometimes they are necessary.

 

[starsuperion]

That's a creative way to never have to learn about someone's life experience, fear of "putting them in a category."

lol.

Good luck with your life.

There's no fear there bro... It's just insignificant in me and my friend's daily lives. Sure the media, Twitter, activists, professors, and people obsessed with putting other people into a category do. But I tend to look at people as who they are, not what they appear to be on the superficial side. People are more complex. When you push someone into a category, the implication is they all think the same way. Feel the same way. And have all the same life experiences. Truth is life isn't like that. We all experience our own forms of biases and people who dislike you because you are different. It's over coming those things, and not letting them affect you in your daily life thats key. I've had my share of being attacked for being white, on the wrong side of school.,or in business my loan officer friend and I were trying to do work together, but his partners who were also of the same color or race didn't want to because of my skin color. ( in context, my business partner was older but his partners were from a different generation and had biases that were built,on past experiences, but yet had nothing to do with me, except I was white.)It happens, but I'm not a victim. I refuse to be one. So there's always gonna be some who do not like others or fear or are suspicious of them for those reasons. But in general we are not governed by such things, and the days of Democrat jim crow, KKK, and segregation are over. There are some who,want those days back for one reason or another, and the lynch pin of today's mindset is that no matter how far we've come. Its always back to the old tired logic, that doesn't do anything to further the understanding, that we are all human. And we are better off working together. I'm reminded of the story of the Tower of Babel, where in the Gods feared humanity working together with one language as one race of beings, regardless of their color, or sex, or orientation. So much so that they had to come down, disperse humanity, confound their speech to limit their achievements. Great story. Lesson?? We should all work towards removing Categories for one another. And work together in harmony. Dividing us up into victimhooded categories only creates more resentment and fosters more division.

 

[starsuperion]

To be fair, I'm less and less interested in what he thinks. He's wrapped himself up in a bubble so he doesn't have to his world view be challenged. For fucks sake, he claims he doesn't see racism or sexism in America.



In my case, my wife is Indian. I've been around her for almost 20 years. To not see her Indian heritage, to not see her gender and her experiences of those who be to not see a huge part of who SHE is.



Sounds like you're afraid of how he might view you. Have you ever had a conversation about what it's like for him to be a man of color in a predominantly white country? Or is that something that's just not talked about.

Because my wife and I have. Not only is she a person of color, she's also an immigrant. And hearing how SHE experiences America was pretty eye opening for me. I have learned a lot that if it hadn't been pointed out, if she hadn't told me, if i hadn't asked, I wouldn't know and understand.

It took me a long time to notice... far longer than it should've have, that almost immediately upon meeting my wife, strangers would always ask, 'So, where's the best place in town to get Indian food?' No one asks me immediately upon meeting where's the best place to get any sort of food.




Because that's right, the best way to change thoughts and feelings about racism is to never ever talk about it. To never ever understand that someone might have a very different experience of this world because of their skin color or gender.

*can't even muster the eye rolling emoji*

Sometimes it's ok to have uncomfortable conversations. Sometimes they are necessary.

First of all, I never said racism or sexism did not exist I said it did not exist in a pervasive way as rampant as you were describing it. I'm a military brat. I lived outside the country for quite a while. My friends were all multi racial and diverse in their ethnic backgrounds cuz my schools were always a multi racial and diverse ethnic backgrounds being the Military is also. Your assumptions about me are just false and wrong! You have no clue who I am what I've seen or what I've experience in life!

And for the record my daughter's mother is japanese. My son's mother is red head and freckled. My father is of middle,eastern descent. And is about 3 shades darker then I am, and my mother is scotch Irish, and relative to the St. Clair family, red headed and freckled. Though I have my father's darker hair, I was born AB Negative blood type, so my skin is pale as snow white, like my mother, my eyes are a gift from my grandmother and are Grey. Out of my two other brothers, who take more after my father, I'm more like my mother. But even with all of this diverse background none of it matters. people are people. getting to know people and their complexities is more important. That superficial outer shell doesn't matter only the Consciousness inside is important. Same too goes for gender.

 

[jaime]

To be fair, I'm less and less interested in what he thinks. He's wrapped himself up in a bubble so he doesn't have to his world view be challenged. For fucks sake, he claims he doesn't see racism or sexism in America.



In my case, my wife is Indian. I've been around her for almost 20 years. To not see her Indian heritage, to not see her gender and her experiences of those who be to not see a huge part of who SHE is.



Sounds like you're afraid of how he might view you. Have you ever had a conversation about what it's like for him to be a man of color in a predominantly white country? Or is that something that's just not talked about.

Because my wife and I have. Not only is she a person of color, she's also an immigrant. And hearing how SHE experiences America was pretty eye opening for me. I have learned a lot that if it hadn't been pointed out, if she hadn't told me, if i hadn't asked, I wouldn't know and understand.

It took me a long time to notice... far longer than it should've have, that almost immediately upon meeting my wife, strangers would always ask, 'So, where's the best place in town to get Indian food?' No one asks me immediately upon meeting where's the best place to get any sort of food.




Because that's right, the best way to change thoughts and feelings about racism is to never ever talk about it. To never ever understand that someone might have a very different experience of this world because of their skin color or gender.

*can't even muster the eye rolling emoji*

Sometimes it's ok to have uncomfortable conversations. Sometimes they are necessary.

You assume my experience is the same as yours, that the situation in my time and place is the same as yours. They affect how you see and experience those things. The history here is different to there....not saying it is free of racism, but it’s a very very different set-up. (No segregation being the biggie. America will take a hundred years to get over that.) and last, but not least, you assume that all of those things you do not, and can not, take into account are incorrect.
One of the reasons why the situation has got so tense in recent years is because globalisation has led to the import of US cultural values and history. We are taught Rosa Parks when we should be taught the Brixton Riots.

I personally think there’s a world of difference between people who grew up in different countries, nothing to do with skin colour. There is no ‘white culture’ and ‘black culture’ on a global scale as it were. That’s not about ignoring problems or avoiding conversations. It’s about avoiding making massiv assumptions that lead to flawed reasoning. Which is what happens here in this conversation.

 

[jaime]

If it helps, you might notice how this would have been different in the land of the free:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Brixton_riot

And there’s plenty else around it.
I can also verify that Brixton is not a safe place to be, though it’s cleaned up a bit in the last ten years. It’s also a place where being white in certain areas and in certain times of day was emphatically not a good idea.

 

[Professor Zoom]

You assume my experience is the same as yours, that the situation in my time and place is the same as yours.

I don’t actually. I assume it’s different. Like I assume it’s different for your friends.

They affect how you see and experience those things. The history here is different to there....not saying it is free of racism, but it’s a very very different set-up.

Yep.

(No segregation being the biggie. America will take a hundred years to get over that.)

Fun fact, segregation only occurred in one part of the US, however, racism didn’t magically stay in those areas.

and last, but not least, you assume that all of those things you do not, and can not, take into account are incorrect.
One of the reasons why the situation has got so tense in recent years is because globalisation has led to the import of US cultural values and history. We are taught Rosa Parks when we should be taught the Brixton Riots.


I personally think there’s a world of difference between people who grew up in different countries, nothing to do with skin colour. There is no ‘white culture’ and ‘black culture’ on a global scale as it were.

I agree. On a global scale.

That’s not about ignoring problems or avoiding conversations. It’s about avoiding making massiv assumptions that lead to flawed reasoning. Which is what happens here in this conversation.

Do you think your black friends have had the same experience through life as you, a white person? Or is that an assumption?

 

[jaime]

I don’t actually. I assume it’s different. Like I assume it’s different for your friends.



Yep.



Fun fact, segregation only occurred in one part of the US, however, racism didn’t magically stay in those areas.



I agree. On a global scale.



Do you think your black friends have had the same experience through life as you, a white person? Or is that an assumption?

For the most part, I know they have. Some of em anyway. Some had it rougher and I know about that too. Sometimes I have had it rougher. Sometimes we don’t mention that to each other (a friend knows I was done over on the bus when we were teens. He doesn’t know that during I was declared a race traitor for my choice of friends. Though given he knew who did it, he could probably guess. But we don’t need to drag that into our friendship.) sometimes we do (I know about when one friend was racially abused by a teacher, another friend knows about when I was assaulted for being white British and on the wrong housing estate..silly me, dating a girl in a forbidden zone eh?)
The reason being, I lived in the same estates, went to the same school, got turned down for the same jobs etc (actually, my black mates I grew up with all did better than me when it comes to employment. But they made better choices as they went.) Sometimes they didn’t get a job because the person up top had...certain preferences shall we say....sometimes I didn’t.

For the most part, we are all standing right next to each other in the same world, not a different one, not going home to a different one.
There’s greater differences now...largely because they have moved out to slightly less cosmopolitan areas. But we started in the same place.

 

[starsuperion]

And why is doctor who a mess again? Oh yea, writing. Vision. Story arcs, and lack of recognizable, or iconic villains.
To name a few recent:
The Slatheen
The Silence
The Carionites
The Judoon
The Weeping Angels
The new GREAT INTELLIGENCE
and so on...just to name a few..
Honorable mention, the Vashta Nerada.

Season 11 had wonky enemies and aliens. Most aliens, weren't the true enemy, it was men. So that's kinda tricky to sell action figures on to little boys when the enemy isn't an alien, but someone like you, for each story arc. The aliens are just bystanders. How,does a kid imagine and play with those action figures, where the story revolves around their alien figures just being bystanders?? Kid logic, please. Its not that hard for marketing people in sales to realize after a bit, and test market samples. If season 11 was such a great hit, you'd think there'd be a boom of Merch, given how much flowed out from the tenant years thru the Smith years. The classics line and BF are doing great! Can't even get a smegging figure if it's BF! Ridiculous! We can measure enthusiasm with sales if you look back in track head to when Doctor Who was at its height. You can see a correlation. The Capaldi years did not yield very much in the way of action figures. That also is a reflection of poor writing at that point at Moffitt was on his way out. To me I'm hoping season 12 fares better and gives us more of a story arc or seeds of one per episode with an iconic villain hopefully they can come up with their own but I doubt there's the ability and talent to make that happen in this current crew Manning the helm.

 

[Professor Zoom]

For the most part, I know they have. Some of em anyway. Some had it rougher and I know about that too. Sometimes I have had it rougher. Sometimes we don’t mention that to each other (a friend knows I was done over on the bus when we were teens. He doesn’t know that during I was declared a race traitor for my choice of friends. Though given he knew who did it, he could probably guess. But we don’t need to drag that into our friendship.) sometimes we do (I know about when one friend was racially abused by a teacher, another friend knows about when I was assaulted for being white British and on the wrong housing estate..silly me, dating a girl in a forbidden zone eh?)
The reason being, I lived in the same estates, went to the same school, got turned down for the same jobs etc (actually, my black mates I grew up with all did better than me when it comes to employment. But they made better choices as they went.) Sometimes they didn’t get a job because the person up top had...certain preferences shall we say....sometimes I didn’t.

For the most part, we are all standing right next to each other in the same world, not a different one, not going home to a different one.
There’s greater differences now...largely because they have moved out to slightly less cosmopolitan areas. But we started in the same place.

Of course we are all standing in the same world. But our experiences are unique and should be celebrated, not whittled away so everyone is the same.

 

[Gavin70]

How,does a kid imagine and play with those action figures, where the story revolves around their alien figures just being bystanders??

It's always saddened me, the idea that we need to develop stories around what merchandise it can sell. I understand the reality of the situation, it's why Pixar's "Cars" got a sequel before "The Incredibles". But I suspect the need to sell merchandise actually limits the story possibilities rather than enhances it.

 

[starsuperion]

It's always saddened me, the idea that we need to develop stories around what merchandise it can sell. I understand the reality of the situation, it's why Pixar's "Cars" got a sequel before "The Incredibles". But I suspect the need to sell merchandise actually limits the story possibilities rather than enhances it.

Depends. There are two ways to,look at it.,if its good and popular. It will sell as a brand. Toys. Shirts, jackets. Trousers.cups. mugs. Etc..the Merch means more stories. More stories, and popularity, more Merch, and so the cycle continues, They feed each other. Has been like that for 50 plus years.

 

[Gavin70]

Depends. There are two ways to,look at it.,if its good and popular. It will sell as a brand. Toys. Shirts, jackets. Trousers.cups. mugs. Etc..the Merch means more stories. More stories, and popularity, more Merch, and so the cycle continues, They feed each other. Has been like that for 50 plus years.

There's definitely some truth to that. On the other hand there are stories like "The Edge of Destruction" which (I think) added a lot to the show through it's development of the characters and the TARDIS, but would be completely impossible to use from a merchandising perspective. There needs to be a mix.

 

[jaime]

Of course we are all standing in the same world. But our experiences are unique and should be celebrated, not whittled away so everyone is the same.

I don’t do either. I celebrate someone for who they are, not something that came with the packaging as it were. Unless I am drawing them.