Why do you rank TFF highly?

[Damian]

Victim of circumstance doesn't mean misunderstood, but for Khan, and the Black man who killed for his dying daughter, there are factors in the story which were out of their control = Admiral Marcus.

Right, but my point was that Khan is a villain here too. Khan wouldn't think twice about mass murdering an entire civilization if it served his ends.

Khan was every bit the villain Marcus was in my eyes (and vice versa). In a sense they even had similar goals, domination and the utter defeat of all their enemies.

It's just sometimes it seems like some fans try to make Khan out to be almost an hero trying to get justice for him and his people. That was never the final goal, and possibly not even the goal.

You basically had two really bad villains here, and they both needed to be defeated.

 

[STEPhon IT]

No. Marcus was the person to open the Pandora's box, if it wasn't open would you still consider Khan in being a villain in Into Darkness?
I understand now why adjectives are brought in such as real villain or super villain because "victim of circumstance" can be a stretch of comprehension. The actions done by Khan were red herrings, Kirk is now trying to put the genie back into the bottle.

 

[Damian]

No. Marcus was the person to open the Pandora's box, if it wasn't open would you still consider Khan in being a villain in Into Darkness?
I understand now why adjectives are brought in such as real villain or super villain because "victim of circumstance" can be a stretch of comprehension. The actions done by Khan were red herrings, Kirk is now trying to put the genie back into the bottle.

A leopard doesn't change his spots. Khan is a villain who is best left alone or exiled somewhere where he can't do any harm. Given the resources Khan is an extremely dangerous villain, a 'super' villain as you noted.

Now, obviously if Marcus didn't wake Khan up from his slumber then he wouldn't have been a villain in STID. That's a plot point of the specific story. It doesn't change the character of Khan as we know him previously though.

Had Khan succeeded in defeating the Enterprise crew in STID I have absolutely not doubt about the destruction and mayhem he would have caused. It may have even surpassed all death and destruction Admiral Marcus even caused.

I'm not arguing Marcus isn't a villain here. He very much is. If you are looking to assign ultimate blame for what happened in STID, he'd be first in line. My argument is that Khan is very much a villain as well. In fact, I'd even argue Khan would take the same exact actions as Marcus if it served his ends, without batting an eye.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd even argue Khan would take the same exact actions as Marcus if it served his ends, without batting an eye.

And more.

 

[STEPhon IT]

A leopard doesn't change his spots. Khan is a villain who is best left alone or exiled somewhere where he can't do any harm. Given the resources Khan is an extremely dangerous villain, a 'super' villain as you noted.

Now, obviously if Marcus didn't wake Khan up from his slumber then he wouldn't have been a villain in STID. That's a plot point of the specific story. It doesn't change the character of Khan as we know him previously though.

Had Khan succeeded in defeating the Enterprise crew in STID I have absolutely not doubt about the destruction and mayhem he would have caused. It may have even surpassed all death and destruction Admiral Marcus even caused.

I'm not arguing Marcus isn't a villain here. He very much is. If you are looking to assign ultimate blame for what happened in STID, he'd be first in line. My argument is that Khan is very much a villain as well. In fact, I'd even argue Khan would take the same exact actions as Marcus if it served his ends, without batting an eye.

Sigh. Yes, leopards' spots don't change, but if we know what leopards are capable of and they're contained in a cage; are they dangerous to anyone outside of that cage?

A leopard kills and mauls a bunch of people, it could be perceived as the villain because of the menace done, but what if we discover there was a person who open the cage for sinister, personal reasons? Is the leopard still the villain?

 

[Damian]

Sigh. Yes, leopards' spots don't change, but if we know what leopards are capable of and they're contained in a cage; are they dangerous to anyone outside of that cage?

A leopard kills and mauls a bunch of people, it could be perceived as the villain because of the menace done, but what if we discover there was a person who open the cage for sinister, personal reasons? Is the leopard still the villain?

That's why I said Marcus bears the ultimate responsibility for what happened in STID.

I'm arguing that they are both very bad villains. That I disagree with some fans who make Khan out to be just some sort of misunderstood bad buy who is just seeking justice. Khan is one of the baddest of the baddies. He is still a villain. That's what I mean by my leopard comparison. But unlike a leopard, Khan is capable of making choices, and he chooses to be what he is.

But I agree with your argument that Marcus is the one ultimately responsible. He started the chain of events. But Khan is not blameless either. It's just a matter of degrees.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Marcus and Khan were very bad people, no question, but in the context of the movie of Into Darkness, Khan was perceived as the villain but later its discovered he was a victim of circumstances, not of his control = if Khan was asleep this means no problems from him, while Marcus was exposed as the villain of the piece, he orchestrated the plot which was why he was killed and not Khan. Terrorists are never blameless, but the architect normally carries more of the weight.

 

[Damian]

Marcus and Khan were very bad people, no question, but in the context of the movie of Into Darkness, Khan was perceived as the villain but later its discovered he was a victim of circumstances, not of his control = if Khan was asleep this means no problems from him, while Marcus was exposed as the villain of the piece, he orchestrated the plot which was why he was killed and not Khan. Terrorists are never blameless, but the architect normally carries more of the weight.

I don't know if I can see Khan as any sort of victim of circumstance. I agree with your point that Marcus bears ultimate responsibility.

BUT, Khan could have made different choices. He's also incredibly intelligent and resourceful. If he was a different kind of guy, a 'good' guy, he could have made different choices. I don't really see him as a victim of circumstance.

If he had made different choices, tried to take what was going on to Starfleet Command, or the Federation Council, and then he was driven to the choices he made because that failed....then I might buy the victim of circumstance argument.

But he did none of that. He's a villain through and through so he did things the villains' way. Kill and destroy until you get what you want. And honestly, reading Bob Orci's comments when he used to post on trekmovie.com I never felt they were trying to make Khan out into some sort of anti-hero. I always thought of it as Marcus was a villain who woke up another dangerous villain, and he greatly overestimated his ability to control the other dangerous villain.

While I was never very fond of bringing back Khan in the first place, I will give them credit for taking this Khan story in a different direction. But he was the same Khan at the core. It's just his motivations for vengeance and power are different this time because of the circumstances he found himself in.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Inadequate for who? I thought Star Trek was about evolved humanity and reforming the darker aspects of human nature not crime, punishments and execution?

Still, after all these young people that he's killed (the ones we saw ejected into space), it seems wrong that he would continue to live and enjoy the sunshine... I draw the line at mass murder.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Marcus and Khan were very bad people, no question, but in the context of the movie of Into Darkness, Khan was perceived as the villain but later its discovered he was a victim of circumstances, not of his control = if Khan was asleep this means no problems from him, while Marcus was exposed as the villain of the piece, he orchestrated the plot which was why he was killed and not Khan. Terrorists are never blameless, but the architect normally carries more of the weight.

Khan was no victim, he was a mass-murdering piece of crap. Marcus was a scumbag, but he was also in over his head, thinking that he could control someone like Khan.

 

[fireproof78]

Still, after all these young people that he's killed (the ones we saw ejected into space), it seems wrong that he would continue to live and enjoy the sunshine... I draw the line at mass murder.

Ah, inadequate for you. Thank you for the answer.

 

[dupersuper]

Still, after all these young people that he's killed (the ones we saw ejected into space), it seems wrong that he would continue to live and enjoy the sunshine... I draw the line at mass murder.

How biblical.

 

[Vger23]

Wow. Major topic drift here.

 

[Damian]

Wow. Major topic drift here.

Wait, what were we talking about again

 

[Swedish Borg]

Wait, what were we talking about again

I have no idea.

 

[Swedish Borg]

How biblical.

Yeah, hating mass murderers is biblical...

 

[Smellmet]

Ok I'll attempt to get this back on track...

I watched TFF a few nights ago for the first time in the best part of a decade maybe, I thought it was time to give it another chance. Honestly, even though my ranking of it is still at the bottom of the pile, I would say I enjoyed it more than I thought I was going to and I feel like it has actually improved for me. There is still a decent film in there somewhere.

A few pros and cons thoughts that I took away from my recent rewatch:

Pros

The opening scene is actually stunning - very well shot indeed.

The score, whilst not TMP, TWOK/TSFS good is still excellent.

The campfire scenes are just great.

The bridge in this movie is one of my favourites.

I think some of the humour and one liners actually land really well.
'Some of us get off on long and dangerous climbs'
'God I liked him better before he died'
'Jim, you don't ask the Almighty for his I.D.'
In fact, most of the funniest lines are from Bones.

The interplay between the big three is generally great throughout.

Even though to this day I don't get the pain scenes with Spock and Mcoys father (does Sybok have magical powers or something?) the scene with McCoys father is very well acted.

Lukinbill is great as Sybok.

Cons

The story is still a bit questionable. The false god at the end is very TOS but it just lacks spectacle and stakes. It's an anti climax. I think it would have been better if it had been the Enterprise confronting this entity in space maybe - a bit more like TMP.

The snappy humour that works so well for the big three largely falls flat for the rest of the crew. The scene where Sulu and Chekov pretend to be stranded in a blizzard is just cringeworthy, and there's plenty more lie this too.

Klaa is just a stupid cardboard cutout Klingon. Shite.

Deck 78. Come on.

The much derided special effects absolutely stink the place out. The level of sheer incompetence on display here just beggars belief, even for 1989. Embarrassing.

On final reflection, I actually think the FX are the main culprit here. If this film was visually of the standard of what came before it I think it would lift this movie no end to me. They undermine the entire film in my opinion.

 

[Damian]

Ok I'll attempt to get this back on track...

I watched TFF a few nights ago for the first time in the best part of a decade maybe, I thought it was time to give it another chance. Honestly, even though my ranking of it is still at the bottom of the pile, I would say I enjoyed it more than I thought I was going to and I feel like it has actually improved for me. There is still a decent film in there somewhere.

A few pros and cons thoughts that I took away from my recent rewatch:

Pros

The opening scene is actually stunning - very well shot indeed.

The score, whilst not TMP, TWOK/TSFS good is still excellent.

The campfire scenes are just great.

The bridge in this movie is one of my favourites.

I think some of the humour and one liners actually land really well.
'Some of us get off on long and dangerous climbs'
'God I liked him better before he died'
'Jim, you don't ask the Almighty for his I.D.'
In fact, most of the funniest lines are from Bones.

The interplay between the big three is generally great throughout.

Even though to this day I don't get the pain scenes with Spock and Mcoys father (does Sybok have magical powers or something?) the scene with McCoys father is very well acted.

Lukinbill is great as Sybok.

Cons

The story is still a bit questionable. The false god at the end is very TOS but it just lacks spectacle and stakes. It's an anti climax. I think it would have been better if it had been the Enterprise confronting this entity in space maybe - a bit more like TMP.

The snappy humour that works so well for the big three largely falls flat for the rest of the crew. The scene where Sulu and Chekov pretend to be stranded in a blizzard is just cringeworthy, and there's plenty more lie this too.

Klaa is just a stupid cardboard cutout Klingon. Shite.

Deck 78. Come on.

The much derided special effects absolutely stink the place out. The level of sheer incompetence on display here just beggars belief, even for 1989. Embarrassing.

On final reflection, I actually think the FX are the main culprit here. If this film was visually of the standard of what came before it I think it would lift this movie no end to me. They undermine the entire film in my opinion.

Yeah, I think I agree with all your points. The whole Sulu/Chekov thing and Scotty banging his head on the conduit after saying he knew the ship like the back of his hand were both cringeworthy.

The novelization does a better job with the Sulu/Chekov getting lost. They obviously wanted some ironic humor there since they're the helmsman/navigator respectively. But it fell flat in the movie and if you weren't a die hard Trekkie that knew that, or if you just weren't paying that close attention the irony probably was lost there.

The novelization also does a much better job with Sybok's backstory and how he is able to do his thing.

And yes, the special effects are a major drag. What makes it even worse is the other 12 Star Trek films have anywhere from decent to superb special effects, so TFF really sticks out for how bad it is. I mean, they're not just a step below the average of the other movies, they bottom out. They're terrible. And yes, I do believe they drag the rest of the film as a result.

It's like going out on a date with someone who maybe is a nice person, but hasn't bathed in a week. You want to like them but you really wish they'd take a shower.

That's TFF. It's a nice movie. You want to like it. But you really wish someone would come along and clean up the visuals.

 

[fireproof78]

The story is still a bit questionable. The false god at the end is very TOS but it just lacks spectacle and stakes. It's an anti climax. I think it would have been better if it had been the Enterprise confronting this entity in space maybe - a bit more like TMP.

This is largely where the film fails for me. The story lacks any sort of punch. The biggest punch is the Big 3 and the hidden pain sequence. That's an emotional climax. Unfortunately, it hits in the second act. The rest is just, as you say, anti-climatic. The Great Barrier is supposedly this dangerous thing that amounts to a pot hole in space. The being has lightning vision.

The VFX never really bothered me but the weird reveal at the end just takes the air out of the balloon.

 

[Damian]

The Great Barrier is supposedly this dangerous thing that amounts to a pot hole in space.

Yeah, that's a big miss too. "Nobody's ever made it through the Great Barrier"--and then the Enterprise passes through it with hardly a hiccup. They really made a big deal about it and then....nothing. Traversing the cloud around V'Ger was more perilous and took a lot longer.

And you kind of have to ignore the fact that it only took the Enterprise about a day or so at most to get there. I'm sure Voyager wished it had access to whatever the Enterprise used to get their so fast. I mean, I know Voyager was a few years away from coming on the air yet, but even back in 1989 there was enough information in the shows up to that point to tell you it would take them years to make that trip.