Exactly, which is another point of proof that when some fans decry nuTrek's lack of authenticity, they are in fact expressing their frustration that it is not more like TNG.
Why Do The Klingons Look Like Shredder From TMNT
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Exactly, which is another point of proof that when some fans decry nuTrek's lack of authenticity, they are in fact expressing their frustration that it is not more like TNG.
Stealing the specs for the enemy's top-secret "doomsday weapon"? Absolutely. Hell, isn't that what Prince Leia is doing in A NEW HOPE?
Heck, what about Jason robbing the Golden Fleece back in Greek mythology? Warrior cultures tend to have their own definitions of "honor"--in which stealing your enemy's treasures can be seen as honorable, heroic, and proof of one's own prowess and cunning.
I think you may be confusing "honor" and "honesty." Outwitting your adversaries, sometimes through trickery and deceit, was the stuff of heroism in many ancient cultures. I always figured the Klingons felt the same way.
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There's quite a few differences between what Leia did and what Valkris did. For one, the Death Star was a doomsday weapon; Genesis was not. For another, the Klingons could have gotten that confirmation from the Federation; I'm pretty sure giving the Rebel Alliance info about the Death Star was not high on the Imperials' list of priorities.
I don't understand the question.
Only to Kruge and so she didn't feel bad that he was killing her.
It's complicated.
Genesis was every bit as doomsday as the Death Star. The only difference is, after Genesis destroyed a planet, it created a new one in its place. But the result for the original one is the same.
No matter what PR the Federation may have promulgated in the wake of the Mutara Nebula being magically transformed into a planet by means of a classified project, the Klingons were distrustful and insisted on believing that Genesis was really for military purposes.
Remember the annoying ambassador's diatribe from TVH: "Even as this Federation was negotiating a peace treaty with us, Kirk was secretly developing the Genesis torpedo, conceived by Kirk's son and test detonated by the Admiral himself! The result of this awesome energy was euphemistically called 'The Genesis Planet' ...A secret base from which to launch the annihilation of the Klingon people!" (source: chakoteya.net)
Kor
Remember the annoying ambassador's diatribe from TVH: "Even as this Federation was negotiating a peace treaty with us, Kirk was secretly developing the Genesis torpedo, conceived by Kirk's son and test detonated by the Admiral himself! The result of this awesome energy was euphemistically called 'The Genesis Planet' ...A secret base from which to launch the annihilation of the Klingon people!" (source: chakoteya.net)
Kor
No, for her martyrdom in being killed by Kruge so that no one would be able to trace the theft of the Genesis data back to him. Seeing the plans makes her a potential witness -- since she now knows what it is that he obtained -- and therefore a liability.
Kruge is basically on a one-man rampage with his small crew and can't have loose ends like that. So Valkris has to die for the cause.
tl;dr: "Remembered with honor" because she's a good Klingon wife.
Amen. The notion that Genesis wasn't a weapon makes no sense to me. It was every bit a weapon, even if it was dressed up as a way to create life.
Again, a huge difference here. The Federation, despite what the Klingons thought, were not going to use Genesis as a weapon to destroy their enemies. The Imperials had no such compunction. The Rebel Alliance was in the right with their actions; the Klingons were not.
But this is a discussion about Klingon honor. Yes, if they felt threatened, they could justify their stealing under the rubric of "honor." But I don't buy that it's an honorable action.
Now this I can believe.
In any case the depth and breadth of the Klingon sense of "honor" was a creation of TNG and DS9, not the films or TOS.
Genesis was no more a weapon than a bulldozer or a cropduster. Just because both of those can and sometimes ARE used to torment civilians in a war zone doesn't change this fact.
This, by the way, is exactly what David Marcus was warning Carol about and is also exactly what Carol didn't want to happen (hence "it has to be completely lifeless"). She was trusting Starfleet to let Genesis remain under her exclusive control as a civilian terraforming project because, on some level, SHE didn't trust Starfleet with the technology either.
I get the impression that her team would have used the device as an exclusive product under their small company and carved out a name for themselves as the galaxy's best terraformers. I also get the impression that the simulation on Kirk's video was alot more simplified than the actual process; it's more likely the device would have to be "delivered" to a spot pretty far under ground, close to the planet's core, which would a) explain why they needed to test the process in an underground environment first and b) explain why it has a 4 minute countdown to activate.
What about Kirk and Spock stealing the cloaking device from the Romulans in "The Enteprise Incident"? Was that honorable?
Stealing enemy intelligence is "honorable" as long as you're the good guys, I guess. But consider: the Klingons consider themselves the good guys, so, to them, stealing the Genesis secrets from their long-time enemy, the UFP, was perfectly honorable.
And do we really think that the UFP was going to share that technology with the Klingons, even knowing its sheer destructive potential? Of course not. The Cold War between the UFP and the Klingons had been going on for decades at that point. It would be like the USA sharing our atomic secrets with the USSR at the height of the Cold War.
And if you were a Klingon, would you be satisfied with the UFP's assurances that "No, really, we would never even consider using this incredibly powerful new technology against you. Trust us, we're the good guys!"
Of course not.
Stealing enemy intelligence is "honorable" as long as you're the good guys, I guess. But consider: the Klingons consider themselves the good guys, so, to them, stealing the Genesis secrets from their long-time enemy, the UFP, was perfectly honorable.
And do we really think that the UFP was going to share that technology with the Klingons, even knowing its sheer destructive potential? Of course not. The Cold War between the UFP and the Klingons had been going on for decades at that point. It would be like the USA sharing our atomic secrets with the USSR at the height of the Cold War.
And if you were a Klingon, would you be satisfied with the UFP's assurances that "No, really, we would never even consider using this incredibly powerful new technology against you. Trust us, we're the good guys!"
Of course not.
No. It wasn't. And nobody ever said it was.
Stealing should never be justified as being "honorable" no matter which side is doing it.
Agreed. But this has nothing to do with stealing being an "honorable" act. It's an act of desperation at best.
By your standards of "honor," perhaps. But who says that Klingons have the same view?
As noted earlier, outwitting one's adversaries and stealing their treasures, cattle, women, or whatever has often been considered honorable and heroic by war-like cultures. We can't necessarily apply modern American notions of "honor" to a race of alien predators.
Heck, there have been terrestrial cultures where dueling, ritual suicides, trial by combat, or whatever were considered "honorable," even though we might disapprove of such behavior today. Indeed, it wasn't that long ago that Americans considered it "honorable" to shoot each other over slights to their "honor". (RIP, Alexander Hamilton.) "Honor" has more than one definition, depending on the times and culture.
And if stealing should "never" be justified as honorable . . . well, that brings us back to Princess Leia again. Was she behaving dishonorably by stealing the plans to the Death Star--from her own government, no less!
As noted earlier, outwitting one's adversaries and stealing their treasures, cattle, women, or whatever has often been considered honorable and heroic by war-like cultures. We can't necessarily apply modern American notions of "honor" to a race of alien predators.
Heck, there have been terrestrial cultures where dueling, ritual suicides, trial by combat, or whatever were considered "honorable," even though we might disapprove of such behavior today. Indeed, it wasn't that long ago that Americans considered it "honorable" to shoot each other over slights to their "honor". (RIP, Alexander Hamilton.) "Honor" has more than one definition, depending on the times and culture.
And if stealing should "never" be justified as honorable . . . well, that brings us back to Princess Leia again. Was she behaving dishonorably by stealing the plans to the Death Star--from her own government, no less!
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I've never heard that Gene hated the Klingons. He used them in TMP and TNG. I've heard he was hesitant to in include Worf, because he didn't want TOS aliens as part of the cast.
I don't think the TOS Klingons were "one-dimensional cardboard Snively Whiplash villains". Well not all of them, Kor, Koloth and Kang,who had much meatier parts than most, had much more depth. A lot of that was due to the performances of Colicos, Campbell and Ansara. They are very different characters, even though they were all written to be Kor at first.
Obviously they don't. Sarek said it best: "Klingon honor is a unique point of view." And he said this for the same reasons I said that stealing wasn't honorable. He was questioning their ethics based on the excuse that they were "honorable" actions. I'm doing the same.
I meant that he hated their portrayal in TOS.
I'm not saying that Klingons are honorable by Vulcan or even human standards; that's not the point. But you can make a case that they're honorable by their own standards, so there's no real inconsistency between, say, Kruge and the Klingons we saw later on TNG.
By Klingon standards, stealing your enemy's military secrets, even if if means sacrificing your lover, is honorable indeed.
By Klingon standards, stealing your enemy's military secrets, even if if means sacrificing your lover, is honorable indeed.
I haven't heard that either. He had a fair amount of control then. The way they were portrayed rests on him.
Gene hated TOS by the time of TNG 
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