Why do Star Trek fans hate Voyager? - Link

[TrekkieRiker]

Really??? DS9 brought back the Klingons in full force, brought back the Romulans, and had the remaining War in the Alpha Quadrant because the wormhole was mined. This eliminated any attempt to explore the Gamma Quadrant something which was integral to the uniqueness of DS9. The Dominion officially became the substitute big baddie from the Borg; the show became "The Best of Both Worlds" the TV series. Oh! Worf became a cast member and the producers found a way to bring back TOS in a Forrest Gump type gimmick. Not "more of the same." indeed.

That is why I did not really like DS9. There is little space exploration, but at least it, instead explores relationship and our "inner space", For that I give it what it needs to keep on my list of series to rewatch every now and then. Enterprise was not that great, tell you that much, but my own impression with Voyager is it was rather good, sure there are inconsequencies, but UI manage to skip them and use my imagination.

 

[Trekboy1993]

They're decades away from home, not decades away from supplies.

The Maquis had an enemy, but it wasn't Starfleet. Many of them were from Starfleet, and many more members of Starfleet sympathized with them.

Nonetheless, not every Maquis had a background in Starfleet, and had trouble adjusting. This was addressed quite a bit in the show's first 2-3 seasons, from the misfits that Tuvok helps, to B'elanna's issues, to Seska, and Jonas, to Sudor.

"They should have been at each others throats" -People don't act like that, especially not in a structured military environment, with a goal orientated routine. And if they did, who would want to watch that kind of immaturity? Janeway and Chakotay were mom and dad to the ship.

Not decades away from supplies? So there was a space station around the corner? And where was this addressed other than that one stupid episode and to have them all in starfleet uniforms by the end of the pilot.

 

[STEPhon IT]

So you're telling me a ship decades away from home and supplies, with 2 groups of people who should have been at each others throats shouldn't have been gritty and dark?

It would've been unwise for the small number of Maquis people to be at anyone's throats since they were the minority on the ship. I'm not sure it's Star Trek to have characters who were considered smart people to be at each others' throats. I can see this kind of adolescent plotting is your cup of tea and not very Star Trek.

Star Trek is about making friends in tough places but core values should always be there. I think another approach by exploring strange new worlds, solving some mysteries and small internal conflicts within the Voyager crew would've been a prosperous avenue than having the crew at their throats every week. They wouldn't had survived with that kind of short attention span.

Voyager was more of the same you could replace Voyagers characters for TNG and the stories would be the same.
Year of Hell was how that show should have always been written. What we got was a watered down show no one really talks about anymore.

And that was unfortunate because I thought the Voyager crew or cast were the best cast of actors since ST:Enterprise. I felt Kate Mulgrew should've borrowed the footsteps of Genevieve Bujold, a compassionate Captain who held the world on her shoulders making a huge mistake blowing up the crew's chances to come home. There are characters like Tuvok and B'ELanna and Chakotay and many more who showed a template of what that show could've been. Year of Hell is not Star Trek, it's a complete mess where everyone is doing a lot ridiculous things to progress a terrible plot; along side comic booky villains with super weapons. When the sh*t hit the fan they concluded with ramming the ship into something. The Trek-writers had a huge hard on for ramming ships into stuff back then for some reason. It's DS9 with a better wardrobe.

Voyager was anything but watered down, it may wanted to be TNG but the stories were too bombastic to be. It appeared... like DS9... they were fighting against all odds every week, and when a softer toned episode did come around it felt melodramatic and hammy. I think the tone for all of the spin-offs were all wrong and should've been more in tone with TNG.

We need story arcs, character development. And to know that even in Stark Trek everything is not all hunky dory.

We'd gotten that on DS9, and then on Enterprise, and now on Discovery... all are failing. Reason is because Star Trek was never designed to be Star Wars and there's nothing wrong with a world which is hunky dory. Jesus, I wish more shows were hunky dory these days; it seems all of Hollywood can't get their heads out of their asses that maybe... just maybe there's an audience who would like to see a Star Trek that is specifically geared for family entertainment.

 

[STEPhon IT]

That is why I did not really like DS9. There is little space exploration, but at least it, instead explores relationship and our "inner space", For that I give it what it needs to keep on my list of series to rewatch every now and then. Enterprise was not that great, tell you that much, but my own impression with Voyager is it was rather good, sure there are inconsequencies, but UI manage to skip them and use my imagination.

I hated the show but I really liked Tuvok, B'Elanna, and Kes and some others, but the show refused to go in a tone which were appropriate. A small ship alone in the middle of nowhere should not be having beef with anyone. Make friends, learn from new races, and when things get too hot, put your tail between your legs and get the stepping! May I ask, has Voyager had a better episode than "Distant Origins"?

 

[Trekboy1993]

It would've been unwise for the small number of Maquis people to be at anyone's throats since they were the minority on the ship. I'm not sure it's Star Trek to have characters who were considered smart people to be at each others' throats. I can see this kind of adolescent plotting is your cup of tea and not very Star Trek.

Star Trek is about making friends in tough places but core values should always be there. I think another approach by exploring strange new worlds, solving some mysteries and small internal conflicts within the Voyager crew would've been a prosperous avenue than having the crew at their throats every week. They wouldn't had survived with that kind of short attention span.


And that was unfortunate because I thought the Voyager crew or cast were the best cast of actors since ST:Enterprise. I felt Kate Mulgrew should've borrowed the footsteps of Genevieve Bujold, a compassionate Captain who held the world on her shoulders making a huge mistake blowing up the crew's chances to come home. There are characters like Tuvok and B'ELanna and Chakotay and many more who showed a template of what that show could've been. Year of Hell is not Star Trek, it's a complete mess where everyone is doing a lot ridiculous things to progress a terrible plot; along side comic booky villains with super weapons. When the sh*t hit the fan they concluded with ramming the ship into something. The Trek-writers had a huge hard on for ramming ships into stuff back then for some reason. It's DS9 with a better wardrobe.

Voyager was anything but watered down, it may wanted to be TNG but the stories were too bombastic to be. It appeared... like DS9... they were fighting against all odds every week, and when a softer toned episode did come around it felt melodramatic and hammy. I think the tone for all of the spin-offs were all wrong and should've been more in tone with TNG.


We'd gotten that on DS9, and then on Enterprise, and now on Discovery... all are failing. Reason is because Star Trek was never designed to be Star Wars and there's nothing wrong with a world which is hunky dory. Jesus, I wish more shows were hunky dory these days; it seems all of Hollywood can't get their heads out of their asses that maybe... just maybe there's an audience who would like to see a Star Trek that is specifically geared for family entertainment.

DS9 is failing? DS9 has been off the air since '99 and Enterprise ended in '05?

 

[Prax]

I think it's time for some keyboard warrioring:

Voyager was more of the same you could replace Voyagers characters for TNG and the stories would be the same.

You really need to qualify these kinds of statements. Are the characters interchangeable? umm...no...what? Are there some episodes of Voyager that could have been slightly modified to work on TNG? Yes, but many more would not have.
Examples of Voy episodes that wouldn't be on TNG:
-Phage, Faces, and maybe Deadlock
-Prime Factors
-Resistance
-Maneuvers
-Meld
-The Thaw
-Tuvix
-Basics

Those are off the top of my head from s1 & 2.

There are many more dark, gritty, even sweaty, episodes:
-The Chute would not be on TNG
-Revulsion
-If Scientific Method were a TNG episode, it would be "Schisms." On Voyager, Janeway destoys the aliens, by flying through a star, after they intentionally kill one of her crewmen as a warning to not resist.
-Hunters and Prey
-Killing Game
-Hope & Fear
-Extreme Risk
-Counterpoint
-Juggernaut

You get the idea

What we need was a full season of Year of Hell or Equinox that is how the ship should have always looked. Beat up and torn down with the crew starving and dirty.

But why? Why would the ship look like that? Could they not take care of themselves? Are you saying they should've been on the run, hunted by every alien, scared, and helpless for seven seasons? That would be awful. Star Trek is a platform for telling compelling Sci-Fi stories. The beauty of sci-fi is being able to experiment with genres, morality plays, adventures, etc. The beauty of Star Trek is having a crew that you become familiar with and attatched to to go on those journeys with.

Second, it ran concurrent with DS9 for several years...and DS9 was not "more of the same." So, this made VOY's repetitiveness of format stand out even more boldly and made it feel even more inferior to what had come before.

Third, they did not do a very good job with establishing the same iconic characters that had been established previously. While the characters were all "fine" and "likable..." there was really nobody who was as iconic or appealing as some of what had come before. Again, at that time, it all felt a little redundant.

Fourth, the episodic storytelling at that time was getting a little dated. DS9 had adapted a semi-serialized approach to telling Star Trek stories, and VOY felt like a big step back in terms of maturity of storytelling. To make matters worse, what VOY did attempt to pass off as arcs were more soap-opera inspired than they were anything approaching engaging long-term stories. Most of the episodes therefore either felt very small and self-contained with too-rapid a wrap-up (like The Orville currently feels), or they were epic, huge deals that were forced to be "reset" or "forgotten" as a result of simply not having the format to do a more expansive and lasting exploration of a really good story idea. The show leaned more toward "safe" than was in style or desired at that time.

I've seen someone on here refer to Voyager as a "serialized procedure." It had more recurring elements, and was more self referential than TNG, and about the same as DS9. They didn't have a 6 part story, or a 10 part finale like DS9, but they had about the same level of referential continuity between episodes.
Voyager's premise doesn't lend itself to the same kind of story arcs that DS9 had. It was a ship constantly on the move, trekking home. The Kazon don't show up after season 2 because Voyager has flown beyond their territory. Every season means a new sector of space with new races. This is what Berman, Pillar, and Taylor wanted when creating Voyager. They wanted to get away from Klingon politics, Vulcan diplomats, and so forth. They wanted to have a blank sheet in unexplored space that wouldn't interfere with DS9. And "Episodic TV" is still the norm on broadcast TV today. Not every tv show is on HBO, or a "NETFLIX Exclusive."

I think all of this, combined with the over-reliance on holodeck stories, reset buttons, and anomaly of the week stories made the series a lot weaker than its stated premise would have initially led you to believe.

It's a show that had so much potential but wasted it away on silly story lines, reset after reset, no damage to the ship, no character development, put a leash on the writers. Voyager should have been even more gritty than DS9 or dare I say Enterprise.

Voyager had the potential to be great but obviously the studio wanted a safe,stable show to fill the TNG void.
Weak casting and a deadening cleaving to the reset button didn’t help.
I don’t hate Voyager but I have no affection for it.

Someone please qualify all these mentions of "reset after reset." I can only think of a couple of episodes that hit the "reset button." One is Year of Hell. Another is Timeless. Another is....maybe...I dunno, what's another one? Oh, Before & After could be one. So, a handful at best? Basically, some time travel stories...These are actually some of the most beloved time travel stories. Did DS9 have less reset episodes? I doubt it. There was Children of Time, The Visitor...possibly others. One of Enterprise's greatest of all episodes was a reset button show, Twilight.

Interesting fact:
TNG, DS9, and Voyager each had about the same number of time travel episodes, and holodeck episodes(about ten each), and Voyager's holodeck episodes were pretty creative, rarely relying on the "holodeck malfunction" for those stories. Likewise for the time travel episodes. Only one of them was the stereotypical "crew travels to the past" type of stories.

So if Voyager relied too much on Holodeck episodes, so did DS9. So did TNG. DS9 even had a sentient hologram on board named Vic Fontaine, which led to many a silly hijinks.

So you're telling me a ship decades away from home and supplies, with 2 groups of people who should have been at each others throats shouldn't have been gritty and dark? Voyager was more of the same you could replace Voyagers characters for TNG and the stories would be the same. Year of Hell was how that show should have always been written. What we got was a watered down show no one really talks about anymore. We need story arcs, character development. And to know that even in Stark Trek everything is not all hunky dory.

There are a bunch of story arcs in Voyager, and A LOT of character development. Every character has numerous episodes each season focused on them. For the characters who necessitate it, there is also a good deal of character growth.

Some examples of Story Arcs:
-The first two seasons there is the Seska arc, which becomes the Kazon arc, which culminates in the season 2 finale/season 3 premiere
-The Vidiians also contribute to a story arc
-The Hirogen also
-The "contact with home" is an ongoing story arc that begins in season 4, and builds up, eventually including Barclay, Doctor Zimmerman, and Counsellor Troi,
-There are multiple Borg arcs during season 4-7, like the Queen, the borg children, etc.

Some examples of Character Growth:
-The Doctor begins his journey right from when he meets Kes in the 2nd or 3rd episode, and throughout each season.
-Tom Paris' reformation
-B'elanna had a ton of development, but also some growth as a person, throughout the series.
-Tom & B'elanna's relationship. It was planned from from the beginning of season 1, and gradually developed through to season 7.
-Kes went from a naive young women, who'd barely seen her own sun, to an adventurer, to a more mature person, to a space wizard
-Seven of Nine: This needs no explanation
-Even Harry Kim had a little growth, accepting of "home" on Voyager in the end.

 

[Prax]

For those seeking dark, angsty, gritty, backbitey, sweaty serial (in spaaaace) Drama...

A gift for you, I have.

 

[Paradise City]

When the sh*t hit the fan they concluded with ramming the ship into something. The Trek-writers had a huge hard on for ramming ships into stuff back then for some reason. .

lol, yes. This is defintely true.

 

[Nyotarules]

Maybe my optimistic thinking of Trek is naive because I have more estrogen than testosterone,

No it is because that is your own opinion of Voyager. I also have a pair of XX chromosomes and your view does not match mine. For me Voyager is not a repeat viewing Trek show, if they had a season of Year of Hell or even Equinox that would have made things more interesting. The premise of Trek is not all about 'optimism'.

For me where Voyager falls down is this, after realising it will take 70 years to get back to Federation space the ship should run as a generational ship, even alternate Archer figured that out in E2. Unless Janeway was hoping to discover the fountain of eternal youth and strength?

 

[Trekboy1993]

I think it's time for some keyboard warrioring:

You really need to qualify these kinds of statements. Are the characters interchangeable? umm...no...what? Are there some episodes of Voyager that could have been slightly modified to work on TNG? Yes, but many more would not have.
Examples of Voy episodes that wouldn't be on TNG:
-Phage, Faces, and maybe Deadlock
-Prime Factors
-Resistance
-Maneuvers
-Meld
-The Thaw
-Tuvix
-Basics

Those are off the top of my head from s1 & 2.

There are many more dark, gritty, even sweaty, episodes:
-The Chute would not be on TNG
-Revulsion
-If Scientific Method were a TNG episode, it would be "Schisms." On Voyager, Janeway destoys the aliens, by flying through a star, after they intentionally kill one of her crewmen as a warning to not resist.
-Hunters and Prey
-Killing Game
-Hope & Fear
-Extreme Risk
-Counterpoint
-Juggernaut

You get the idea
But why? Why would the ship look like that? Could they not take care of themselves? Are you saying they should've been on the run, hunted by every alien, scared, and helpless for seven seasons? That would be awful. Star Trek is a platform for telling compelling Sci-Fi stories. The beauty of sci-fi is being able to experiment with genres, morality plays, adventures, etc. The beauty of Star Trek is having a crew that you become familiar with and attatched to to go on those journeys with.
I've seen someone on here refer to Voyager as a "serialized procedure." It had more recurring elements, and was more self referential than TNG, and about the same as DS9. They didn't have a 6 part story, or a 10 part finale like DS9, but they had about the same level of referential continuity between episodes.
Voyager's premise doesn't lend itself to the same kind of story arcs that DS9 had. It was a ship constantly on the move, trekking home. The Kazon don't show up after season 2 because Voyager has flown beyond their territory. Every season means a new sector of space with new races. This is what Berman, Pillar, and Taylor wanted when creating Voyager. They wanted to get away from Klingon politics, Vulcan diplomats, and so forth. They wanted to have a blank sheet in unexplored space that wouldn't interfere with DS9. And "Episodic TV" is still the norm on broadcast TV today. Not every tv show is on HBO, or a "NETFLIX Exclusive."






Yes, the ship was damaged a few times. Did they not blow it up enough?



Someone please qualify all these mentions of "reset after reset." I can only think of a couple of episodes that hit the "reset button." One is Year of Hell. Another is Timeless. Another is....maybe...I dunno, what's another one? Oh, Before & After could be one. So, a handful at best? Basically, some time travel stories...These are actually some of the most beloved time travel stories. Did DS9 have less reset episodes? I doubt it. There was Children of Time, The Visitor...possibly others. One of Enterprise's greatest of all episodes was a reset button show, Twilight.

Interesting fact:
TNG, DS9, and Voyager each had about the same number of time travel episodes, and holodeck episodes(about ten each), and Voyager's holodeck episodes were pretty creative, rarely relying on the "holodeck malfunction" for those stories. Likewise for the time travel episodes. Only one of them was the stereotypical "crew travels to the past" type of stories.

So if Voyager relied too much on Holodeck episodes, so did DS9. So did TNG. DS9 even had a sentient hologram on board named Vic Fontaine, which led to many a silly hijinks.



There are a bunch of story arcs in Voyager, and A LOT of character development. Every character has numerous episodes each season focused on them. For the characters who necessitate it, there is also a good deal of character growth.

Some examples of Story Arcs:
-The first two seasons there is the Seska arc, which becomes the Kazon arc, which culminates in the season 2 finale/season 3 premiere
-The Vidiians also contribute to a story arc
-The Hirogen also
-The "contact with home" is an ongoing story arc that begins in season 4, and builds up, eventually including Barclay, Doctor Zimmerman, and Counsellor Troi,
-There are multiple Borg arcs during season 4-7, like the Queen, the borg children, etc.

Some examples of Character Growth:
-The Doctor begins his journey right from when he meets Kes in the 2nd or 3rd episode, and throughout each season.
-Tom Paris' reformation
-B'elanna had a ton of development, but also some growth as a person, throughout the series.
-Tom & B'elanna's relationship. It was planned from from the beginning of season 1, and gradually developed through to season 7.
-Kes went from a naive young women, who'd barely seen her own sun, to an adventurer, to a more mature person, to a space wizard
-Seven of Nine: This needs no explanation
-Even Harry Kim had a little growth, accepting of "home" on Voyager in the end.

Now tell me did any of those episodes have any lasting effect? And you are telling me the ship would look brand new? They even got new phaser rifles and Janeways computer was somehow updated. The only thing they kept was the Uniforms which they were ALWAYS in. You think that ship would look new all the time? Decades away from a starbase? Come on it's one thing to be a Voyager fanboy (girl?) but you have to have some criticism of it.

 

[MacLeod]

One issue I have is that the Characters never really seemed to give off the impression that they might never see home again. It's one thing to Hope for the best (that you will) but you should always plan for the worst that you won't and eventually the ship will need more crew so that needs to be addressed.

 

[Jonesy]

So many generalized statements left unqualified.

I'm feeling awfully tempted to start preaching to the error of your tastes.

Not everyone is generalizing in this thread.

 

[Prax]

Sure I have criticisms of it, but I can critique it without using hyperbole(unless that hyperbole is for the purpose of humor). And I wouldn't hold Voyager to a standard that I don't hold the other series to.

You said that they use [the] "reset after reset" button, but they don't, and the handful(that's <5/170) of times, they some of the most highly rated episodes(YoH, Timeless).

Why should the ship look damaged all the time? If it is damaged, they would need to repair it. The standard for a Starfleet crew would be to have the ship always look it's best. They have 2 or 3 "refits" during the series. They can land on planets. They have replicators, a skilled crew, and access to supplies.

What happens when DS9 gets damaged? Do they fly the station to a starbase where magic machines fix it? DS9 goes through an awful lot of battles. The next episode, it's all fixed. How do they do that?

Not everyone is generalizing in this thread.

Sorry. I didn't mean everyone.

 

[Prax]

In answer to this thread "Why do Trek fans hate Voyager," it could just as equally be asked "why do Trek fans hate TNG/DS9/Enterprise?"

There are people that hate the other series as well. Is Voyager especially hated? Apparently not, as it's quite often shown to be one of the most popular series(of the five, and usually just behind TNG), like in this trek.com poll of over 25,000 votes(possibly one of the largest polls like this done)

- The Next Generation 43%
- Voyager 20%
- The Original Series 19%
- Deep Space Nine 13%
- Enterprise 5%
- The Animated Series 0%

And there's that Netflix viewing data released last year of the top ten most rewatched episodes of all the series, worldwide, in which Voyager dominated the list, including the #1 spot.

I know there are a few people that really don't like it, and make that opinion known frequently. For instance, there's a big DS9 fan here at TrekBBS that stops by any number of Voyager threads(daily?) to disparage the show. Maybe that's why the Voyager forum has so much more activity than the DS9 forum.

 

[MacLeod]

Sure I have criticisms of it, but I can critique it without using hyperbole(unless that hyperbole is for the purpose of humor). And I wouldn't hold Voyager to a standard that I don't hold the other series to.

You said that they use [the] "reset after reset" button, but they don't, and the handful(that's <5/170) of times, they some of the most highly rated episodes(YoH, Timeless).

Why should the ship look damaged all the time? If it is damaged, they would need to repair it. The standard for a Starfleet crew would be to have the ship always look it's best. They have 2 or 3 "refits" during the series. They can land on planets. They have replicators, a skilled crew, and access to supplies.

What happens when DS9 gets damaged? Do they fly the station to a starbase where magic machines fix it? DS9 goes through an awful lot of battles. The next episode, it's all fixed. How do they do that?


Sorry. I didn't mean everyone.

Well one difference between VOY and TNG/DSN is that the later have access to the resources of the entire Federation.

Here is an old interview with one of the Star Trek writers RDM

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm

Now I agree with many of the points he says about VOY, others might not. All shows have flaws and the more you are enjoying something the more you are likely to overlook some of them.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

I've never been able to get into Voyager the way I have the other series, and I don't know why. I watched a few episodes when it originally aired and I have tried to watch it on Amazon-Prime. I can't put my finger on it. I feel like I should love it, but I find myself bored and unable to binge-watch the whole series. I'll try watching that "Warhead" episode and see what happens.

Keep in mind that I'm comparing to other Star Trek series, not regular shows. I'd watch a Voyager episode over just about any other TV show on nowadays.

 

[Prax]

Well one difference between VOY and TNG/DSN is that the later have access to the resources of the entire Federation.

Here is an old interview with one of the Star Trek writers RDM

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm

Now I agree with many of the points he says about VOY, others might not. All shows have flaws and the more you are enjoying something the more you are likely to overlook some of them.

Voyager doesn't have the resources to keep their ship clean? To keep their uniforms clean?

You can't say "Voyager could have been x, and that would've been so much better," then count that as a flaw that "fans just overlook."

 

[Vger23]

I think it's time for some keyboard warrioring:

You really need to qualify these kinds of statements. Are the characters interchangeable? umm...no...what? Are there some episodes of Voyager that could have been slightly modified to work on TNG? Yes, but many more would not have.
Examples of Voy episodes that wouldn't be on TNG:
-Phage, Faces, and maybe Deadlock
-Prime Factors
-Resistance
-Maneuvers
-Meld
-The Thaw
-Tuvix
-Basics

Those are off the top of my head from s1 & 2.

There are many more dark, gritty, even sweaty, episodes:
-The Chute would not be on TNG
-Revulsion
-If Scientific Method were a TNG episode, it would be "Schisms." On Voyager, Janeway destoys the aliens, by flying through a star, after they intentionally kill one of her crewmen as a warning to not resist.
-Hunters and Prey
-Killing Game
-Hope & Fear
-Extreme Risk
-Counterpoint
-Juggernaut

You get the idea
But why? Why would the ship look like that? Could they not take care of themselves? Are you saying they should've been on the run, hunted by every alien, scared, and helpless for seven seasons? That would be awful. Star Trek is a platform for telling compelling Sci-Fi stories. The beauty of sci-fi is being able to experiment with genres, morality plays, adventures, etc. The beauty of Star Trek is having a crew that you become familiar with and attatched to to go on those journeys with.
I've seen someone on here refer to Voyager as a "serialized procedure." It had more recurring elements, and was more self referential than TNG, and about the same as DS9. They didn't have a 6 part story, or a 10 part finale like DS9, but they had about the same level of referential continuity between episodes.
Voyager's premise doesn't lend itself to the same kind of story arcs that DS9 had. It was a ship constantly on the move, trekking home. The Kazon don't show up after season 2 because Voyager has flown beyond their territory. Every season means a new sector of space with new races. This is what Berman, Pillar, and Taylor wanted when creating Voyager. They wanted to get away from Klingon politics, Vulcan diplomats, and so forth. They wanted to have a blank sheet in unexplored space that wouldn't interfere with DS9. And "Episodic TV" is still the norm on broadcast TV today. Not every tv show is on HBO, or a "NETFLIX Exclusive."







Someone please qualify all these mentions of "reset after reset." I can only think of a couple of episodes that hit the "reset button." One is Year of Hell. Another is Timeless. Another is....maybe...I dunno, what's another one? Oh, Before & After could be one. So, a handful at best? Basically, some time travel stories...These are actually some of the most beloved time travel stories. Did DS9 have less reset episodes? I doubt it. There was Children of Time, The Visitor...possibly others. One of Enterprise's greatest of all episodes was a reset button show, Twilight.

Interesting fact:
TNG, DS9, and Voyager each had about the same number of time travel episodes, and holodeck episodes(about ten each), and Voyager's holodeck episodes were pretty creative, rarely relying on the "holodeck malfunction" for those stories. Likewise for the time travel episodes. Only one of them was the stereotypical "crew travels to the past" type of stories.

So if Voyager relied too much on Holodeck episodes, so did DS9. So did TNG. DS9 even had a sentient hologram on board named Vic Fontaine, which led to many a silly hijinks.



There are a bunch of story arcs in Voyager, and A LOT of character development. Every character has numerous episodes each season focused on them. For the characters who necessitate it, there is also a good deal of character growth.

Some examples of Story Arcs:
-The first two seasons there is the Seska arc, which becomes the Kazon arc, which culminates in the season 2 finale/season 3 premiere
-The Vidiians also contribute to a story arc
-The Hirogen also
-The "contact with home" is an ongoing story arc that begins in season 4, and builds up, eventually including Barclay, Doctor Zimmerman, and Counsellor Troi,
-There are multiple Borg arcs during season 4-7, like the Queen, the borg children, etc.

Some examples of Character Growth:
-The Doctor begins his journey right from when he meets Kes in the 2nd or 3rd episode, and throughout each season.
-Tom Paris' reformation
-B'elanna had a ton of development, but also some growth as a person, throughout the series.
-Tom & B'elanna's relationship. It was planned from from the beginning of season 1, and gradually developed through to season 7.
-Kes went from a naive young women, who'd barely seen her own sun, to an adventurer, to a more mature person, to a space wizard
-Seven of Nine: This needs no explanation
-Even Harry Kim had a little growth, accepting of "home" on Voyager in the end.

Sorry bro, just my perception. I don't need to tell you how often or how many reset buttons the show pushed. From my perspective, it was too many. If that was 5 out of 150, I guess that was too many.

It's a good show. It's just the weakest Star Trek show.

Someone asked the question, I answered. And (unlike folks who deal with other shows on this message board), I didn't attack or slander the show. I simply said these are the areas I failed to appreciate.

 

[Vger23]

Really??? DS9 brought back the Klingons in full force, brought back the Romulans, and had the remaining War in the Alpha Quadrant because the wormhole was mined. This eliminated any attempt to explore the Gamma Quadrant something which was integral to the uniqueness of DS9. The Dominion officially became the substitute big baddie from the Borg; the show became "The Best of Both Worlds" the TV series. Oh! Worf became a cast member and the producers found a way to bring back TOS in a Forrest Gump type gimmick. Not "more of the same." indeed.

Yes "REaLlYYY!!1!!"

I'm talking about format, style, theme and pacing, which had DS9 in a much much fresher and more interesting place than VOY or ENT. I'm not talking about whether the Klingons were in the show or not, because I don't give a shit about that stuff. I'm talking about the stuff that I do give a shit about. And that stuff was different and better.

 

[Paradise City]

One issue I have is that the Characters never really seemed to give off the impression that they might never see home again. It's one thing to Hope for the best (that you will) but you should always plan for the worst that you won't and eventually the ship will need more crew so that needs to be addressed.

That's the thing. I never once had any doubt they'd get home. I got a little impatient with the letters episodes. Whilst its intuitive and necessary to include such scenes; the certainty I had that they'd get home; often meant those kinda scenes was a turbulence to get through.

And that's a minor point btw -- as I like the show. But there's little sense of real urgency that could defy the TNG model. Voyager perhaps added something to the TNG template but didn't defy the mould.

However I grant the point made by others on this thread about the Maquis and Starfleet not being at each others throats. You need Janeway to have to rescued a crew of Cardassians whom had gotten on the wrongside of a Maquis raider to raise the intraship tension to truly critical levels.