Why do so many people take what Seven said in "Relativity" (RE: FC) as a fact?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Unimatrix Q, Jun 29, 2020.

  1. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    I really hate the idea that the events of First Contact happened because of a time loop and prefer to think that the Borg simply changed the timeline and themselves because of that. It's the easiest way to explain the differences in their appearance and behavior since then.

    By the way, we only have Seven's word for it. Could be that Annika never was Seven of Nine before the Borg manipulated the past and Seven as well as the entire Borg Collective are unable to see what really happened and just interpreted it as a loop but actually it wasn't...
     
    Kor likes this.
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    I have no problem with it at all. :shrug:

    Me, I LIKE the concept of an attempt to change history to prevent some event, actually causing the event to happen.

    And it brings a sense of order and stability to things. A closed loop, as it were.

    Also, I don't see any actual evidence that the events of FC changed history. Picard and crew did, after all, return to the same future they left...
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  3. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Location:
    Daniels' Illinois
    This should be moved to the Voyager forum.
     
  4. 1001001

    1001001 I Like the Nightlife, Baby! Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Location:
    Beyond the Gilded Cage
    It refers to events from 2 different shows, so it's fine here.

    I have no idea what else it's about, though...

    :shrug:
     
    StarCruiser likes this.
  5. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Location:
    Daniels' Illinois
    Sorry. I was just making a little joke.

    Very little.
     
    1001001 likes this.
  6. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Does Seven also know about the timeline where the Borg successfully assimulated Earth?

    Data: "... nine billion ... all Borg."
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    This explains how random assholes (The Hansons earned that word. Worst. Parents. Ever.) know about thew Borg 20 years before Q- Who?

    Not a time loop.

    Divergent timeline.

    Going back in time made time different, so it's impossible to repeat the identical circumstances that sent back the last iteration, so it doesn't need to happen.
     
    Unimatrix Q likes this.
  8. 1001001

    1001001 I Like the Nightlife, Baby! Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Location:
    Beyond the Gilded Cage
    Guinan told Starfleet about the Borg after she was rescued by Enterprise B.

    The Hansons were briefed as part of their research.

    And yes, they were crappy parents for sure.
     
  9. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Location:
    Daniels' Illinois
    And Archer knew about the Borg too. And Cochrane blabbed about them during drunken commencement speeches.

    Starfleet had plenty of advanced knowledge about the Borg, the same for the Ferengi, but the galaxy is a big place full of Lovecraftian horrors and some civilization hundreds or thousands of light years away is not their concern. File it away and deal with them when you next see them.
     
  10. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    I don't really have any problem with the idea that first contact happened as seen in the movie.
    Aside from not liking the movie very much, that is.
     
  11. somebuddyx

    somebuddyx Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    I think First Contact and Voyager just retconned the Borg to always looking like the First Contact versions and assimilation always being part of their nature. The same way Picard probably retconned the Borg ship interiors (I've only seen clips of the show so not sure if accurate). These things happen.
    I think First Contact could be a time loop or not. There's some temporal shenanigans going on since they see the Borgified Earth. I don't think it really matters to be honest.
     
  12. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    I believe she mentions this time loop as an example in front of 29th century Duncan when he is examining her to see 'how much she has assimlated' . They are on board the time ship Relativity, a ship with supposedly specialised equipment and crew for scanning and restoring timelines , so if anyone would know, it would be them. Wouldn't she have been corrected by Duncan, had she been plain wrong?
     
    The Wormhole and Unimatrix Q like this.
  13. Finn

    Finn Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Location:
    Austin
    Q talked as if the existence of Borg was right in front of Picard’s nose.
     
  14. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    Not if 29th century starfleet tech still isn't advanced enough to detect this. Didn't Braxton even say something like Borg occular implants are still better than what they have?

    By the way, the Borg being changed by their own time shenenigans might also explain how much the character of JL changed when compared to the show. Movie Picard actually seems like a different person and wouldn't the queen actually talk with Jean Luc in person before he was assimilated, if it was so important for her and the Borg that he becomes Locutus?

    Maybe the events of "Q, Who?" And "Best Of Both Worlds" were very different after the Borg altered themselves, because of Hugh who gave them a hard time when he returned to the collective in "I, Borg"...
     
    at Quark's likes this.
  15. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    True, forgot about that. He says 'Your ocular implant. It can detect disruptions in space-time better than our sensors.'.

    Though I must say that I never took that to mean that Borg temporal scanning equipment was superior to 29th century scanning equipment in general, just that they needed an agent on the spot there and that they couldn't provide someone with gear as powerful and yet as portable/inconspicuous as 7's ocular implant, that only needed a little 'cloaking'. But yeah, that's just my interpretation and not necessarily correct.
     
    Unimatrix Q likes this.
  16. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    They were! "The Neutral Zone" hinted at them by mentioning the Federation and Romulan colonies which were destroyed by unknown attackers.

    In "Q, Who?" we learned that it was the Borg.
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    "We are not willing to vivisect our agents to make their time scanners 3 percent better."

    So they could, its just that they don't want to.
     
  18. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    I don’t mind what happened in the movie but hate the Enterprise ep. Trying to score cheap drama. It’s the time travel episode equivalent of saying “By the way these two main characters are actually related!” Picking an easy trope off a checklist without earning it. It was totally unnecessary for the Borg to have come as a result of a 200 year old transmission.
     
    Unimatrix Q likes this.
  19. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    Yes. Using the Borg in this time period and especially in this way was a big mistake in my opinion, especially after what Voyager did with them.

    The only way to do something borgrelated in the 22nd century that might work, would have been Archer and his crew discover a destroyed homeworld or colony of a species that was attacked by the Borg. With them meeting a few survivors and trying to solve the mystery without success.

    That could have actually been a very interesting episode, at least.
     
  20. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    I liked the handling of the Borg in Enterprise. Yes, it was perhaps a cheap borrowing of tropes, but not any worse than, say, the Ferengi popping up , and I think the way they handled it was relatively credible, with the unthawing of crashed drones and them establishing a new collective and such. However I didn't necessarily buy the idea that the 24th century Borg would come as a result of that 22nd century transmission. After all:

    1) It's doubtful that it was picked up in the DQ at all.

    2) Doubtful as to whether the Borg would take action on it. There's actually nothing to suggest that humanity is perceived as a particular danger or a particularly tempting target by the Borg in episodes such as BOBW or movies such as FC - and if we really were, they would have sent a lot more than just one cube. So assuming they are still entirely in the DQ in the 22nd century (which is suggested by the 22nd century mini-collective sending the signal all the way there), why could they go so far out of their way to come hunt for humans/the Federation specifically on the basis of a 200 year old transmission in effect probably saying nothing more than: "OK, so they destroyed our Cube in the 24th century-- this species is not entirely defenseless" -- surely the humans aren't the only species capable of doing that and they still have bigger fish to fry a lot closer to home ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020