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Why do Ransom and Picard hold the same Starfleet rank?

The way I see it is there are basically two options:

a) Unlike the TNG+ scheme, the Early TNG scheme directly follows US naval tradition for flag ranks and the 'no-pip' is equal to Brigadier General or Rear Admiral, Lower Half/Flotilla Admiral (and the semi-canonical one-pip rank thereafter).
b) The Early TNG uniform follows general naval tradition and the 'no-pip' rank corresponds to Commodore, but HQ Staff Officers of that rank are refered to as 'Admiral' by courtesy (similar to how CMDRs and LCDR skippers are 'Captain' if in command of a ship).

Personnally, I favour (b).
 
Just thought of what happened when Kirk took over the Enterprise in the Motion Picture.

KIRK: I'm replacing you as Captain of the Enterprise. You'll stay on as Executive Officer. Temporary grade reduction to Commander.

So it would seem, that at least in this specific case, rank and position are tied, else it wouldn't have been necessary to reduce Decker's rank only because Kirk took over the position as captain (and who was an admiral by rank so would have outranked Decker, anyway). On the other hand (as someone remarked earlier), Scotty became a Captain ('of engineering'), probably without ever commanding a Starship...
 
Just thought of what happened when Kirk took over the Enterprise in the Motion Picture.

KIRK: I'm replacing you as Captain of the Enterprise. You'll stay on as Executive Officer. Temporary grade reduction to Commander.

So it would seem, that at least in this specific case, rank and position are tied, else it wouldn't have been necessary to reduce Decker's rank only because Kirk took over the position as captain (and who was an admiral by rank so would have outranked Decker, anyway). On the other hand (as someone remarked earlier), Scotty became a Captain ('of engineering'), probably without ever commanding a Starship...

Reducing Decker in rank didn't have to happen but I suspect it was done because the audiances are idiots who can't grasp a simple concept like Admiral Kirk commanding the ship and the producers wanted to hark back to the days of the series with Captain (not Admiral) Kirk
 
Random comments:

MAGolding's analysis of Kirk's rank development is fine - but there's no pressing reason to assume Garrovick would have been the man Kirk went to snitch about Finney's life-endangering mistake. We know Kirk is an instructor to Mitchell at the specific rank of Lieutenant, meaning he is at the Academy; quite possibly, he has not yet "left the Academy", then, despite having served as Ensign aboard assorted starships.

There are dedicated training ships in the Fleet in the 24th century (one of them named the Republic, even!). Cadets are to be found aboard all sorts of ships, including the Discovery, but this is apparently in addition to the sort of ships that do not actually serve in the front lines. And there is Academy training other than that involving Cadets: postgraduates may be studying separately to attain command competence, culminating in the no-win scenario test. Now, Kirk took his while still a Cadet, but Saavik did not (and Spock never did, establishing the optionality); all sorts of openings for an Ensign assigned to the Academy to teach or study aboard a starship.

On the other hand, Kirk's odd emphasis on how Garrovick stayed with him could directly be taken as implying that Garrovick went through unusual hoops there, including a transfer... But if we look for unusual wordings, "leaving the Academy" instead of "graduating" could also be taken as a significant distinction.

As for Commodore, we know little about the lowest of the five flag ranks in the post-TOS-movie era. But there are five pips to be had in the final incarnation of the rank scheme; the one-pipper should be one step lower than Rear Admiral and two steps below Vice Admiral by strong precedent. Yet we know that Picard would have hopped from Captain straight to Admiral of some color in "Coming of Age", and the early pipless flag officers all are called Admiral just like their one- and two-pipped counterparts.

If anything, then, we have slots open for two flag ranks to replace Commodore: the one-pip Rear Admiral, Lower Half and the zero-pip Bottom Admiral... But we can also combine them to one (even if it makes the early TNG pip scheme byzantine indeed) and call that whatever we wish, including something dignified for a chance. But squeezing Commodore back in would appear utterly futile.

Timo Saloniemi

I think that my analysis of Kirk's career is the most logical and reasonable one. However, it is always possible for an alternate version to be correct, and some people might find reason to support one.

In Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) we meet Kirk's son, Doctor David Marcus, son of Doctor Carol Marcus. David was portrayed by Merritt Butrick who was 22 or 23 and who was a high school student in The Square Pegs in 1982-83. But it is usual to earn a PHD a few years older than 22 or 23. Maybe 23rd century education is more advanced, maybe David was precocious, or maybe David was 25 or older.

If David was about 25 in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) which was "fifteen years" after "Space Seed" David should have been about 10 in "Space Seed".

Arbitrarily assuming that David Marcus was aged 25.0 to 30.00 in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982), and that Kirk and Khan's "fifteen years" was a very approximate 14.0 to 17.0 years, David would have been about 8.0 to 16.00 in "Space Seed". Arbitrarily assuming that second season episodes like "A Private Little War" and "Obsession" were sometime between 0.5 and 2.0 years after "Space Seed", that would make David about 8.5 to 18.0 in those episodes.

So if David was about 8.5 to 18.0 in "A Private Little War" and "Obsession", he would have been about minus 6.5 to plus 6.0 to when Lieutenant Kirk made a planetary survey "thirteen years" (12.0 to 15.0 years) before "A Private Little War" and about minus 4.5 to plus 8.0 when Lieutenant Kirk and the Farragut were attacked by the space vampire cloud "eleven years" (10.0 to 13.0) before "Obsession".

Thus Dr. David Marcus should have been conceived and born about the same time, give or take a few years, as Lieutenant Kirk was making a planetary survey and the vampire space cloud attacked the starship Farragut with Lieutenant Kirk aboard.

According to my reconstruction of Kirk's career, after the Farragut disaster Kirk returned to Starfleet Academy on Earth as an instructor.

In "Where No Man Has Gone Before":

MITCHELL: Well, I'm getting a chance to read some of that longhair stuff you like. Hey man, I remember you back at the academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from upperclassmen was, Watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.
KIRK: I wasn't that bad, was I?
MITCHELL: If I hadn't aimed that little blonde lab technician at you
KIRK: You what? You planned that?
MITCHELL: Well, you wanted me to think, didn't you? I outlined her whole campaign for her.
KIRK: I almost married her!

Many fans prefer to think that the "little blonde lab technician" was the future Dr. Carol Marcus.

Since upperclassmen warned new cadet Mitchell about Lieutenant Kirk's class, Kirk must have been teaching it for at least one academic year. If the course lasted for at least 3 months, it is possible that Mitchell introduced Kirk to the possible Carol Marcus about 1.0 to 1.25 years after Kirk first started teaching at the Academy. Thus David might have been conceived as early as when he would have been about minus 3.5 to plus 9.25 according to my calculations.

Of course it could have taken some time for Kirk to return to Earth and start teaching after the Farragut disaster. Kirk might have taught his class for several years before Mitchell entered the Academy. Kirk and Carol Marcus could have been dating for months or years before David was conceived. Some fans would say that in this hypothetical situation either David was an unusually young PHD or else he must have been conceived before the Farragut disaster.

The time between Lieutenant Kirk's first planetary survey and the Farragut disaster could be between minus one year and five years. Thus it is possible that Ensign Kirk was promoted to lieutenant on the Republic, made his first planetary survey, went to Earth to become an instructor at Starfleet Academy for at least two years, became David Marcus's father, was assigned to the Farragut and got to know Captain Garrovick very well over months or years before the space vampire cloud attacked. But some fans many doubt that there would have been enough time between Kirk's first planetary survey and the Farragut disaster for Kirk to get to know Garrovick very well.

Or possibly Ensign Kirk on the Republic was promoted to lieutenant and went to Earth to teach, fathered David Marcus, and then was assigned to the Farragut under Captain Garrovick before making his first planetary survey. David would have been born a few years earlier.

In "A Private Little War":

SPOCK: Aside from that, you say it's a Garden of Eden?
KIRK: Or so it seemed to the brash young Lieutenant Kirk on his first planet survey.

Kirk doesn't specify how long he was a lieutenant before making the survey. Thus it is possible that he was a lieutenant and instructor at Starfleet Academy for at least two years before going out into space again.

IMHO the desire to equate Carol Marcus with the "little blonde lab technician" and make enough time for David to become a PHD is the only reason to not have Kirk serve under Captain Garrovick on both the Republic and the Farragut starting when Kirk was commissioned ensign.
 
Kirk took over the position as captain (and who was an admiral by rank so would have outranked Decker, anyway).
Kirk demoted himself down to the rank of Captain in TMP as well. After he arrives on the Enterprise, he switches to a uniform with Captain's stripes on it.
 
Because the Star Trek universe is simplified for dumb audiences.

Except when Commander Sisko was in charge of DS9. For a time, someone somewhere thought fanboys could comprehend a little more.

But then that moment passed into eternity.

DS9 is an interesting example - all the main characters were promoted at least once (Nog several times), but also the station itself rose in prominence over the course of 2369-75, so everyone remained stable relative to each other. It was a cunning way to get around the "Why are they still together after seven years?" problem.

It's not an exact analogy, but this might help: CEO of a 10-man startup vs CEO of a giant multinational with hundreds of thousands of employees.

Without kicking off another rant about the electoral college, it might be prudent to ask why John Carney is a governor while Bill de Blasio is a mere mayor.
 
Ransom: Captain of the U.S.S. Equinox, Nova class. Approx crew complement for vessels of this class is 78.

Picard: Captain of the U.S.S. Enterprise, Galaxy class. Approx crew complement for vessels of this class is 1000-1600.

The numbers are from memory alpha, and even if there's some speculation to them, they won't be too far off.

So, why is it that they both hold the same Starfleet rank? There must be several departments on a galaxy class with a greater complement than the crew total of a Nova. I know of the tradition to call any CO of a vessel 'captain' but they both really have the captain rank as far as I can determine, which, in a real-world navy, they probably wouldn't. So, is Picard's rank 'too low' (and should he at least have been a 'fleet captain' or some other rank), or is Ransom's rank 'too high'?

The Enterprise was not Picards first command, the Stargazer was and he commanded that ship for 22 years. The fact that he had so much experience was why he was given a Galaxy class ship, they didn't just hand those out to anybody. Janeway also had a number of commands before being given Voyager which at the time was the most advanced ship in Starfleet. It's implied that the Equinox is Ransoms first command and that he was given a promotion to captain due to his scientific ability not his command ability. It's possible that The Equinox was a ship with which Ransom could cut his teeth as a captain before being offered a more prestigious post.
 
There was nobody left who could.

Admiral Hayes was still alive (as we would later learn due to his appearance on VOY) but he must have been in an escape pod or something, as his flagship had been destroyed. So we can assume that the fleet was in disarray, with no clear-cut command structure remaining. Picard, due to his years of experience, was the perfect candidate to take command.

I'm sure that when Hayes was able to recover and return to duty, he'd be the first to commend Picard for his actions.

Except that there were supposedly a lot of Starfleet ships at the start of the battle, probably fewer by the time that Picard took command. And so I expect that there should have been several admirals commanding various groups of starships in the Federation fleet.

Look at the British and German orders of battle at the Battle of Jutland in 1916 and count how many admirals were in each fleet.

Or maybe after the Battle of Wolf 359 where several admirals may been present and been killed or Borgified Starfleet admirals started turning chicken and staying away from big space battles. That could mean that Hayes was the only admiral present in the battle with the Borg in Star Trek: First Contact. That might explain why Captain Sisko was in command of a fleet of 600 warships in "Sacrifice of Angles", even though if Starfleet followed the practices of modern navies the commander of so vast a fleet should have been several ranks HIGHER than any admiral in history.
 
According to Shattered, Voyager was in fact Janeway's first command.

It's mentioned in 'The Raven' that Janeway met Tuvok because she failed to follow proper tactical procedure on her first command which was about 10 years prior to her taking command of Voyager.
 
Reducing Decker in rank didn't have to happen but I suspect it was done because the audiances are idiots who can't grasp a simple concept like Admiral Kirk commanding the ship and the producers wanted to hark back to the days of the series with Captain (not Admiral) Kirk
Which introduces a whole other level of silliness that being a captain is somehow the best position in Starfleet.
 
Because the Star Trek universe is simplified for dumb audiences.

Except when Commander Sisko was in charge of DS9. For a time, someone somewhere thought fanboys could comprehend a little more.

But then that moment passed into eternity.
Nah, they thought we were too stupid to comprehend a man with the rank of Captain holding the position of Commander. Cuz Captains are only on ships, dur.
 
Nah, they thought we were too stupid to comprehend a man with the rank of Captain holding the position of Commander. Cuz Captains are only on ships, dur.
this is one of those rare cases (he says, as if he actually could remember other cases) where I tend to agree with TPTB

if you don't have any idea about military ranks and positions, it might actually be confusing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
It's mentioned in 'The Raven' that Janeway met Tuvok because she failed to follow proper tactical procedure on her first command which was about 10 years prior to her taking command of Voyager.

This was covered a few pages (and half a year) back: the command being spoken of there cannot have been a starship command, because

1) the lowly Lieutenant Tuvok could not chide the commander of a starship for her performance, and
2) commanding a starship is not a singular performance that could be critiqued in this fashion.

Rather, young Janeway may have commanded an away team of some color, much like Spock's "first command" in TOS was over a team of half a dozen in a shuttlecraft. Being dedicated to sciences, she would be less concerned with the tactical aspects of a planetary foray, and might not meet the approval of a man who held seniority over her at Lieutenant rank by a wide margin (Tuvok had probably held that rank since the previous century).

So "Revulsion" need not be in conflict with "Shattered" where Janeway herself calls the Voyager her first command.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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The Enterprise was not Picards first command, the Stargazer was and he commanded that ship for 22 years.

Not according to the onscreen material. That is, we have no idea onscreen about how long Picard might have commanded that ship, or about how many ships Picard might have commanded after the Stargazer - we only know he commanded none before her.

The fact that he had so much experience was why he was given a Galaxy class ship, they didn't just hand those out to anybody.

A loser who's stuck commanding an outdated rust bucket for 22 years gets rewarded for his underachievement? I rather think Picard maintained a nice positive gradient to his career, starting out Ensign in "Tapestry" and finishing as Captain in time for "The Battle" but not jumping any ranks in between.

Janeway also had a number of commands before being given Voyager which at the time was the most advanced ship in Starfleet.

Well, every ship ever flown by heroes other than Kirk has been called that. Which is fine, as all ships strive to be cutting edge, and there are infinitely many ways to achieve that, even when only one can be the fastest (Janeway's never was) or the strongest (Janeway's never was) or the biggest (Janeway's never was) etc.

But Janeway never commanded a starship before NCC-74656, as she herself confirms.

It's implied that the Equinox is Ransoms first command and that he was given a promotion to captain due to his scientific ability not his command ability. It's possible that The Equinox was a ship with which Ransom could cut his teeth as a captain before being offered a more prestigious post.

Quite possible, and indeed even plausible. But only implied...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Not according to the onscreen material. That is, we have no idea onscreen about how long Picard might have commanded that ship, or about how many ships Picard might have commanded after the Stargazer - we only know he commanded none before her.



A loser who's stuck commanding an outdated rust bucket for 22 years gets rewarded for his underachievement? I rather think Picard maintained a nice positive gradient to his career, starting out Ensign in "Tapestry" and finishing as Captain in time for "The Battle" but not jumping any ranks in between.



Well, every ship ever flown by heroes other than Kirk has been called that. Which is fine, as all ships strive to be cutting edge, and there are infinitely many ways to achieve that, even when only one can be the fastest (Janeway's never was) or the strongest (Janeway's never was) or the biggest (Janeway's never was) etc.

But Janeway never commanded a starship before NCC-74656, as she herself confirms.



Quite possible, and indeed even plausible. But only implied...

Timo Saloniemi

Picard took command of the Stargazer in 2333 it says that on Memory Alpha. He was a Lieutenant Commander, the Captain was killed and he took command. He was the rewarded for this by being made the permanent Captain. Considering how Picard talks about the Stargazer in 'Relics' it sounds like he had the time of his life commanding that ship and saw it as anything but an underachievement.
 
Picard took command of the Stargazer in 2333 it says that on Memory Alpha.

It doesn't say that on Star Trek, though.

Sure, he "took charge of the Stargazer's bridge". But he didn't "make captain", and it would be odd for him to make captain merely because he took charge in a crisis. Many a hero has taken charge in a crisis, without usurping Picard or Kirk or Janeway from his or her place.

He was a Lieutenant Commander

No, he wasn't. No rank has ever been associated with the incident where he took command.

the Captain was killed and he took command.

And then probably handed it back as soon as the crisis passed. Although perhaps not. After all, we have no idea when this incident took place. Perhaps it was three years before Picard lost the ship to the Ferengi?

Memory Alpha pulls the 2333 date out of a collective ass of sorts, quoting the noncanon writers' bible suggestions on the character, rather than "actual" Trek pseudofacts.

He was the rewarded for this by being made the permanent Captain.

Never stated or otherwise indicated. And it's something of an unlikely reward. Heck, even nuKirk in the 2009 movie doesn't make Captain/captain in quite that fashion, even if he cuts some serious corners. He saves the life of his boss.

When Q quotes the facts of Picard's life in "Tapestry", he first refers to some sort of away team antics, then to the taking-charge-of-bridge incident, and only then, after a pause, brings up the "nobody ever offered your wussier version a command" issue. If anything, it sounds as either the sum total of Picard's previous achievements, or then an issue wholly separate from any of those he listed; associating it with either the Milika III away team or the bridge incident would appear the worst sort of compromise interpretation.

Considering how Picard talks about the Stargazer in 'Relics' it sounds like he had the time of his life commanding that ship and saw it as anything but an underachievement.

Then he's rather delusional. But apparently this doesn't matter, as he indeed does make it to CO of the Federation Flagship. By whatever means. Perhaps he knows the right people?

But commanding a rust bucket in the frontier would keep him from meeting the right people. So there's probably much more to his career than that.

Timo Saloniemi
 
This was covered a few pages (and half a year) back: the command being spoken of there cannot have been a starship command, because

1) the lowly Lieutenant Tuvok could not chide the commander of a starship for her performance, and
He might very well if he was authorised to do this by an Admiral or even if Janeway herself asked him for a frank opinion and Tuvok with his Vulcan zeal preceded to do this without airs and graces. Tuvok, on account of his experience and his occupation as a Starfleet instructor, may very well be asked for this kind of feedback, even if formally his rank was a lowly one.
 
Yet the exact wording from "Revulsion" was "he dressed me down". The Admirals delegating this to the Lieutenant would be odd indeed, undermining the chain of command and all.

Perhaps Tuvok gave a frank opinion that Janeway later described in humorous terms in a jolly social occasion, while it was the Admirals who really tore Janeway a new one as the consequence? Or perhaps the Admirals saw little merit in Tuvok's rantings, and Janeway is turning this particular knife in the wound by her choice of words?

Or then Janeway at that point (nine years prior to the ep) indeed was junior to Tuvok and in a position to receive a dressing-down.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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