Why do Ransom and Picard hold the same Starfleet rank?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by at Quark's, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Captain Captain

    Jun 30, 2009
    The way I see it is there are basically two options:

    a) Unlike the TNG+ scheme, the Early TNG scheme directly follows US naval tradition for flag ranks and the 'no-pip' is equal to Brigadier General or Rear Admiral, Lower Half/Flotilla Admiral (and the semi-canonical one-pip rank thereafter).
    b) The Early TNG uniform follows general naval tradition and the 'no-pip' rank corresponds to Commodore, but HQ Staff Officers of that rank are refered to as 'Admiral' by courtesy (similar to how CMDRs and LCDR skippers are 'Captain' if in command of a ship).

    Personnally, I favour (b).
  2. at Quark's

    at Quark's Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Dec 15, 2012
    Just thought of what happened when Kirk took over the Enterprise in the Motion Picture.

    KIRK: I'm replacing you as Captain of the Enterprise. You'll stay on as Executive Officer. Temporary grade reduction to Commander.

    So it would seem, that at least in this specific case, rank and position are tied, else it wouldn't have been necessary to reduce Decker's rank only because Kirk took over the position as captain (and who was an admiral by rank so would have outranked Decker, anyway). On the other hand (as someone remarked earlier), Scotty became a Captain ('of engineering'), probably without ever commanding a Starship...
  3. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Mar 8, 2001
    Great Britain
    Reducing Decker in rank didn't have to happen but I suspect it was done because the audiances are idiots who can't grasp a simple concept like Admiral Kirk commanding the ship and the producers wanted to hark back to the days of the series with Captain (not Admiral) Kirk
  4. MAGolding

    MAGolding Commander Red Shirt

    Dec 11, 2015
    I think that my analysis of Kirk's career is the most logical and reasonable one. However, it is always possible for an alternate version to be correct, and some people might find reason to support one.

    In Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) we meet Kirk's son, Doctor David Marcus, son of Doctor Carol Marcus. David was portrayed by Merritt Butrick who was 22 or 23 and who was a high school student in The Square Pegs in 1982-83. But it is usual to earn a PHD a few years older than 22 or 23. Maybe 23rd century education is more advanced, maybe David was precocious, or maybe David was 25 or older.

    If David was about 25 in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) which was "fifteen years" after "Space Seed" David should have been about 10 in "Space Seed".

    Arbitrarily assuming that David Marcus was aged 25.0 to 30.00 in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982), and that Kirk and Khan's "fifteen years" was a very approximate 14.0 to 17.0 years, David would have been about 8.0 to 16.00 in "Space Seed". Arbitrarily assuming that second season episodes like "A Private Little War" and "Obsession" were sometime between 0.5 and 2.0 years after "Space Seed", that would make David about 8.5 to 18.0 in those episodes.

    So if David was about 8.5 to 18.0 in "A Private Little War" and "Obsession", he would have been about minus 6.5 to plus 6.0 to when Lieutenant Kirk made a planetary survey "thirteen years" (12.0 to 15.0 years) before "A Private Little War" and about minus 4.5 to plus 8.0 when Lieutenant Kirk and the Farragut were attacked by the space vampire cloud "eleven years" (10.0 to 13.0) before "Obsession".

    Thus Dr. David Marcus should have been conceived and born about the same time, give or take a few years, as Lieutenant Kirk was making a planetary survey and the vampire space cloud attacked the starship Farragut with Lieutenant Kirk aboard.

    According to my reconstruction of Kirk's career, after the Farragut disaster Kirk returned to Starfleet Academy on Earth as an instructor.

    In "Where No Man Has Gone Before":

    Many fans prefer to think that the "little blonde lab technician" was the future Dr. Carol Marcus.

    Since upperclassmen warned new cadet Mitchell about Lieutenant Kirk's class, Kirk must have been teaching it for at least one academic year. If the course lasted for at least 3 months, it is possible that Mitchell introduced Kirk to the possible Carol Marcus about 1.0 to 1.25 years after Kirk first started teaching at the Academy. Thus David might have been conceived as early as when he would have been about minus 3.5 to plus 9.25 according to my calculations.

    Of course it could have taken some time for Kirk to return to Earth and start teaching after the Farragut disaster. Kirk might have taught his class for several years before Mitchell entered the Academy. Kirk and Carol Marcus could have been dating for months or years before David was conceived. Some fans would say that in this hypothetical situation either David was an unusually young PHD or else he must have been conceived before the Farragut disaster.

    The time between Lieutenant Kirk's first planetary survey and the Farragut disaster could be between minus one year and five years. Thus it is possible that Ensign Kirk was promoted to lieutenant on the Republic, made his first planetary survey, went to Earth to become an instructor at Starfleet Academy for at least two years, became David Marcus's father, was assigned to the Farragut and got to know Captain Garrovick very well over months or years before the space vampire cloud attacked. But some fans many doubt that there would have been enough time between Kirk's first planetary survey and the Farragut disaster for Kirk to get to know Garrovick very well.

    Or possibly Ensign Kirk on the Republic was promoted to lieutenant and went to Earth to teach, fathered David Marcus, and then was assigned to the Farragut under Captain Garrovick before making his first planetary survey. David would have been born a few years earlier.

    In "A Private Little War":

    Kirk doesn't specify how long he was a lieutenant before making the survey. Thus it is possible that he was a lieutenant and instructor at Starfleet Academy for at least two years before going out into space again.

    IMHO the desire to equate Carol Marcus with the "little blonde lab technician" and make enough time for David to become a PHD is the only reason to not have Kirk serve under Captain Garrovick on both the Republic and the Farragut starting when Kirk was commissioned ensign.
  5. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

    Jul 23, 2001
    Kirk demoted himself down to the rank of Captain in TMP as well. After he arrives on the Enterprise, he switches to a uniform with Captain's stripes on it.