Why do People like Ezri?

[Rush Limborg]

^Ha ha...Rushbo, you're awesome!

(Nervous chuckle) Uh...yeah, sure!

Just for the record, I wasn't quoting Rodney King, I was saying exactly what I said and nothing more. I didn't even know who he was until I googled him.

I figured. His guilt-trip about "Can't we all just get along?" (which turned him from criminal to martyr, image-wise) has long since become integrated into our cultural mindset--to the point that precious few actually remember the source of the quote. *sigh*

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think even someone who was a criminal--depending on the criminal, that is--can have limits. It's kind of similar to what I've heard about there being a hierarchy in prisons, and what happens to pedophiles and people who betray the US. The "common" criminals won't stand for it.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Hence: "So...whatcha in for?"

(BTW...I apologize if my statement last page was...awkward....)

 

[John Vasiliou]

Never cared for either of the Dax's really.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Now, now. Let's not rush anything here.

Aw, c'mon.

Imagine the field day the TNZ imbeciles would have with that, at my expense!

Remember what they say about dark places: what you find is only what you take with you...

At the same time, it was a little unsettling being dubbed IT and talked about like a children-eating monster...

Well, I just use 'IT' cus I'm too lazy to look up the spelling of your username when it's not there, quotable in the text.

Sure enough, and I took the comment exactly in the spirit it was given. I just thought if was a funny coincidence with the Stephen King's book.

But I have read enough of your posts over the years to know that when it comes to debate, you keep your eye on the ball and don't let much slide. Doesn't make you a child-eating monster...but put it this way: I know that if I ever wanted to take you on in a debate, before I made the first post I'd make damn sure I knew what I was talking about, had my facts straight, and had evaluated my position for inconsistencies. Because if there is a weakness, you will FIND it.

And I can say, I am quite proud (and more than a bit thrilled ) for you to say that.

Just for the record, having traveled all over the world myself and having determined Italy to be my all time favorite country a long time ago (for a myriad of reasons), I wouldn't call you 'cold-blooded'...but by Italian standards, yes - you are actually fairly reserved. Are you from the north or something? I mean, what's up with that?

Yup. Though my personal history is all over the place, I was born and raised in Turin, which has the doubtful but not-quite-unearned honour of being considered the city of well-mannered, buttoned-up, double-crossing liars. "Piemunteis faus e curteis."

In fact, one of the best things ABOUT Italy is it's people - unruly, boisterous, and passionate...yes. But it's hard to top a culture that can laugh at itself...and at life. And who can simply enjoy life so much.

I'd say you have a very accurate portrait of our cultural identity. We had seen too much glory, and too much shit, to take life too seriously.

I love Italy (for all of the reasons above...plus the extraordinary abundance of spectacularly BEAUTIFUL men ...but I digress )

Why, thank you.

I guess from my Hispanic blood, I get a more sleepy demeanor (no siestas here--if I can help it). From my Irish blood, my temper. Native American, my sense of honor and dignity. British, my love of things being "proper" and orderly.

Cultural landscape is an important part of one's upbringing, but I don't think heritage works like that.

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

Wow... a lot going on in this thread.

Why do I like Ezri?

She's brave. Despite being confused (and who wouldn't be, by what happened to her?) and physically small, she takes on problems whether psychological, political, or physical. And she's resourceful enough to succeed.

She cares about people - her friends, her family.

She's a Trill, and her story is about being a Trill. A new race, focused on in DS9, that never got developed enough.

She's beautiful, in a way that appeals very much to me. (Whereas Jadzia or Seven are beautiful in a way that I admire, rather than makes me think "if she were real I'd be in love").

On the other hand - she was held back by a couple of problems.

I don't think a counselor is a great concept for a Trek character. I don't think it worked for Troi or Ezri.

She was introduced way too late - should have come in about halfway through the show.

Jadzia

Not my favorite character, although I don't really agree with the people who don't like her at all, either.

I hated how every story about her, even before Worf, was all about Curzon and the Klingons. It wasn't about Trill society, and it wasn't about having lived nine lives before meeting all sorts of interesting alien races... it was about one past life, and Klingons. And more Klingons. And more boring, stereotypical Klingons.

Her flirting with Quark was always harmless. She should have been, with her ancient perspective, a little more careful with Bashir. That doesn't mean he wasn't an idiot for keeping his hopes up, and it doesn't mean she was constantly manipulative - just that she could have avoided sending mixed signals, which she definitely did at times. If she was supposed to be genuinely confused, we never saw it. Bashir at the start of the show was far more immature than Ezri was when she joined the show.

(By the time Worf called Bashir a boy, I think Bashir was far more emotionally mature than Worf, although their respective issues were quite different.)

Bias in contemporary culture

I find it odd that to counter claims that there are bad portrayals of men in contemporary popular culture, people are pointing to bad portrayals of women. Relevance, your Honour, doesn't speak to the question...

One thing I like about Trek is that it generally has positive portrayals of people, including on DS9 where the main cast remain admirable, positive people - men and women - despite having flaws and despite dealing with some pretty murky ethical dilemmas.

It's interesting to debate and criticize where Trek fell short, but on the whole this is something where Trek is head and shoulders above the vast majority of TV.

 

[Saquist]

I just watched the first 2 seasons of DS9 and it's clear now that Ezri brings nothing to the crew in the last season. Infact, Sisko is now missing his science officer and his second in command in Star Fleet. Ezri was a mess and that whole mess about her being..."confused" seems absurd for the last host that the Dax was blended with who INSTANTLY was blended and knew what he wanted to do and who he was even though Host was worse than Ezri.

After watching Season 1 - 2 I'm forced to conclude that the Symbiant doesn't actually have a personality. It's just a memory bank of the former host. What is the personality of DAX? We've never seen it. With the Tok'ra from stargate we see a definite line between host and symbiont. With the Trill we never see the Dax personality and the Host personality seems to be dominant 100% of the time.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

^I agree. It's just a memory box that makes people more confident...some of the time. Not really consistent and very confusing.

 

[ares93]

if they are not sentient, how do you explain that they can swim around and communicate with each other when they're in the symbiont pools? or how the guardian knew it was Dax when Jadzia was on Trill. the entire symbiont matter is a mess of contradictions.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think where we missed the opportunity to define the symbionts more clearly was as early as "A Man Alone." The Trill expert witness was asked about the host personalities and the combined personalities, but we never had time to explore the personality and memories of the symbiont. Had they gone that far--had we heard a recounting of a memory from Dax of the Pools of Mak'ala, then we wouldn't be having this debate at all. Personally, I think the symbionts are more than just memory-boxes, but since it is the humanoid hosts who speak and move and interact with society outside the pools, this makes their personalities by default the most "visible" aspect of them, and the one that they speak of the most because it's by far more relatable for a non-joined humanoid.

Which of course brings up the question, why didn't we see Dax embodied in the zhian'tara ritual? I suspect that their brain patterns are too alien for a humanoid brain (one that is not joined with a symbiont) to process, because their form is so different.

In fact...I have a theory that symbiont sentience evolved out of what began as the ability to deliver a simple neural shock to would-be predators in the "water," and then said ability turned into the ability to coordinate between symbionts (the better to avoid predators and plan where to go that they couldn't follow), and that in turn became true sentience and communication. And from there, the same ability that they used to send their prey into seizures became more refined and they discovered they could use it to communicate and eventually bond with humanoids and share their lives.

 

[ares93]

^ Agreed. I consider them sentient myself. But that's just me. As i said, one can go either way since it was never actually stated.

Your logic is sound, Nerys. Its a plausible explanation. However if the symbionts brainwaves are so alien, how can it work so well with the humanoid brain. Dont forget, Bashir compared a joined trill to two computers linked together. If that is possible, it cant be so alien as you claim.

And i know books are considered only soft canon, but unless i'm mistaken there was an actual telepathic conversation between Saavik, i believe, and an ancient Trill symbiont in Mr. Mack's MU book. (The name escapes me for the moment.)

EDIT: Sorrows of the Empire, thats it.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Here's why...I think the symbiont is designed to become paralyzed when it's placed into its host, and not to have a strong sense of its own body. This wouldn't be disturbing to them the way it would be to a humanoid hooked into a computer because the humanoid is not meant to live that way. (Just ask Gul Re'jal about that.) But a Trill symbiont is getting plenty of sensory, emotional, and intellectual satisfaction in their lives by sharing with the humanoid host and I suspect they find it highly pleasurable. The psychological need to move and experience the senses independently is not there in them, so that there is no sense to them of being held "prisoner," whereas an enslaved humanoid would very much feel that way.

If you placed the consciousness of a symbiont into another humanoid alone (this would hypothetically provide memories of the symbiont's pre-joining childhood and adolescence), which the receiving humanoid would experience without the paralysis and the diminished sense of its own body that the symbiont would normally feel when actually joined, I suspect that the symbiont's "body sense" would prove so alien to that humanoid that they couldn't handle it. (And if the paralysis DID transfer--that could potentially be deadly if the humanoid's body somehow shut down as a result.)

 

[ares93]

^ Hmm, You have some very good points on that one, mate. I see you've geiven this at least as mych though as i have, if not more. You gave me quite a few things to think about until the next time i go into the depths of the Trill mind.

And yeah. Some are Klingon fans, some are Carsassians as yourself and... Come to think of it, i have yet to write a story where a Trill didn't have a role.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

"Some ARE Cardassians"...

I wish!

I suspect the symbiont is able to provide its own (independent) memories to the host, though, with which it's linked, because of the complex neurochemical relations and brain centers that in both are probably specifically geared to be "neural translators."

 

[ares93]

"Some ARE Cardassians"...

I wish!

I did that on purpose, you know.
Btw, i'm actually working on a photomanip of myself as a Trill

I suspect the symbiont is able to provide its own (independent) memories to the host, though, with which it's linked, because of the complex neurochemical relations and brain centers that in both are probably specifically geared to be "neural translators."

now i know this is unrelated, but you dont happen to medical training, do you? or are you simply well informed. the reason i ask is that there is a way we analyze things, and i notice that in you posts.

 

[Saquist]

^I agree. It's just a memory box that makes people more confident...some of the time. Not really consistent and very confusing.

I think where we missed the opportunity to define the symbionts more clearly was as early as "A Man Alone." The Trill expert witness was asked about the host personalities and the combined personalities, but we never had time to explore the personality and memories of the symbiont. Had they gone that far--had we heard a recounting of a memory from Dax of the Pools of Mak'ala, then we wouldn't be having this debate at all. Personally, I think the symbionts are more than just memory-boxes, but since it is the humanoid hosts who speak and move and interact with society outside the pools, this makes their personalities by default the most "visible" aspect of them, and the one that they speak of the most because it's by far more relatable for a non-joined humanoid.

Which of course brings up the question, why didn't we see Dax embodied in the zhian'tara ritual? I suspect that their brain patterns are too alien for a humanoid brain (one that is not joined with a symbiont) to process, because their form is so different.

In fact...I have a theory that symbiont sentience evolved out of what began as the ability to deliver a simple neural shock to would-be predators in the "water," and then said ability turned into the ability to coordinate between symbionts (the better to avoid predators and plan where to go that they couldn't follow), and that in turn became true sentience and communication. And from there, the same ability that they used to send their prey into seizures became more refined and they discovered they could use it to communicate and eventually bond with humanoids and share their lives.

It just doesn't make any sense that removing the symbiont from one person and blending with another that the Symbiont itself would have NO objections?

Bad guy: I want a symbiont, I'm going to kill the host you're in to get you.
Dax: OK

After Sisko Gets Dax back

Jadzia: So you were just going to let me die?
DAX: well yeah, I was in a new host, what's the big deal?

How does that pychology work when you were willing to let yourself die just because the new you was in a different body? Does anyone see how wacky this is.

As soon as Dax was in the new host he should have felt immediate remorse for what he had done and chosen to go back to Dax. DAX is the one that's going to die...not the other dude. How do you justify that?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I suspect the symbiont is able to provide its own (independent) memories to the host, though, with which it's linked, because of the complex neurochemical relations and brain centers that in both are probably specifically geared to be "neural translators."

now i know this is unrelated, but you dont happen to medical training, do you? or are you simply well informed. the reason i ask is that there is a way we analyze things, and i notice that in you posts.

Nope...not a medical professional. I just read a lot and then make up stuff that halfway makes sense. I'm guessing from this that you're a doctor?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

As soon as Dax was in the new host he should have felt immediate remorse for what he had done and chosen to go back to Dax. DAX is the one that's going to die...not the other dude. How do you justify that?

I suspect that Verad overwhelmed the symbiont--possibly even trained to do it. This guy was probably just a step or two off from being another Joran Belar.

 

[Saquist]

...and that's why the Dax symbiont comes off like a "memory box" as one person said so astutely.

 

[ares93]

Nope...not a medical professional. I just read a lot and then make up stuff that halfway makes sense. I'm guessing from this that you're a doctor?

I suppose the "we" was a bit pushing it. I'm studying to be a paramedic. so technically not yet, but since my father has EMS training as well, i've learned a helluva lot more than i'm supposed to. I have also been studying psychology for two years.