Why do people hate Berman & Braga?

[Christopher]

Because all Trek threads must inevitably turn into passive aggressive Abrams bashing.

Don't worry, in a year or so, the focus of the bashing will probably shift to Bryan Fuller and Alex Kurtzman, and then the heat on Abrams will probably ease off. Nothing to do with the relative quality of their products -- every new incarnation of Trek becomes the focus of complaints from the purists who can't stand that it's different from what came before. Even the now-beloved TWOK was bashed quite a bit when it first came out.

 

[ichab]

"Him?" As I've been pointing out, Braga has consistently been a collaborator throughout his career, not a solo creator. On Enterprise, he and Rick Berman were writing and producing partners. They both showran the first three seasons, they both stepped back for Coto in season four, and they both wrote the finale.




I do think that Berman & Braga were not among the franchise's best writers, and that they were both somewhat burned out on Trek by this point. But I don't think that warrants "hate." They were sincerely trying to do their best work, and that should never be condemned. They just weren't able to do it as well as others. I can understand being disappointed in their work, but "hate" is a petty and unhealthy response.

I'm not saying "I" myself hate them. But the title of the thread is asking "why" the two of them are hated and many here as well as myself have provided answers for that.

 

[Christopher]

I wasn't directing my comment at you; this is a public thread with multiple participants and many more potential readers. I was addressing the general topic of the thread.

 

[JWPlatt]

Because all Trek threads must inevitably turn into passive aggressive Abrams bashing.

Tra-di-tion, tradition! Tradition!

Because all Trek threads must inevitably turn into passive aggressive Abrams bashing.

Sounds like Godwin's Law for Abrams; Abrams Law.

 

[T'Arwen]

In all honesty, I'd probably give TATV a better rating than Precious Cargo. Precious Cargo was horrible. I've literally only watched that episode twice, when it aired and when I got the DVD set. TATV I've watched five times.

The worst part of it was Padma Lakshmi (who fortunately makes a much better host). To me, it was very cliched and would have been forgettable without her but not as bad as a lot of people say. Though I did like the part where T'Pol plays judge. Just curious, do you think Precious Cargo still would have been an abomination if they got a better actress?

 

[The Wormhole]

The worst part of it was Padma Lakshmi (who fortunately makes a much better host). To me, it was very cliched and would have been forgettable without her but not as bad as a lot of people say. Though I did like the part where T'Pol plays judge. Just curious, do you think Precious Cargo still would have been an abomination if they got a better actress?

No, the episode was still pretty bad, a different actress would have made little difference, though an actual professional actress would have been preferable. The episode was horrible, just a bunch of tropes and clichés strung together, and I remember the first time I watched it I was actually able to accurately predict how each scene would end. In fact, in the climax when the evil alien thinks he sees Trip through the bushes, I remember thinking "oh don't tell me they're doing the empty hanging as a decoy trick." And what do you know, exactly what it was.

Fun fact: even Braga hated the episode so much he actually tried to prevent it from airing.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I didn't know,but I'm only a Trek newbie (having only watched 4 seasons of TNG with some episodes skipped and several episodes of DS9) so I beg for your forgiveness

No forgiveness necessary. No reason to know the off-stage personal lives from nearly 20 years ago on a show you didn't watch.

 

[Hadrian]

No forgiveness necessary. No reason to know the off-stage personal lives from nearly 20 years ago on a show you didn't watch.

Thank you

It may have been with "Genesis" that people began to associate his name with silly plot ideas, an association later reinforced by "Threshold"

I watched Treshold ouf of curiosity. It was godawful. But for me it's still better than Skin of Evil (which I watched for the same reason.)

Because all Trek threads must inevitably turn into passive aggressive Abrams bashing.

I think the new movies are good. Altough it's a bit like Star Wars. But my opinion doesn't worth too much,since I could enjoy Nemesis.

 

[The Wormhole]

I watched Treshold ouf of curiosity. It was godawful. But for me it's still better than Skin of Evil (which I watched for the same reason.)

I actually find Threshold a fun episode. Sure it doesn't really make a lot of sense, but it is fun.

But my opinion doesn't worth too much,since I could enjoy Nemesis.

I don't care what anyone says, I enjoy Nemesis.

 

[Vger23]

Don't worry, in a year or so, the focus of the bashing will probably shift to Bryan Fuller and Alex Kurtzman, and then the heat on Abrams will probably ease off. Nothing to do with the relative quality of their products -- every new incarnation of Trek becomes the focus of complaints from the purists who can't stand that it's different from what came before. Even the now-beloved TWOK was bashed quite a bit when it first came out.

And yet another segment of fandom would criticize and spew discontent if it was too similar to what came before, claiming tat it was derivative and had no new ideas.

So you can't really win

 

[ichab]

I don't care what anyone says, I enjoy Nemesis.

And here I thought I was the only one around these parts that liked it. I've always thought that movie was more a victim of franchise fatigue and bad timing(released just before Lord of the Rings) than anything else. The only quibble I had with it it was some of the character moments that were left on the cutting room floor.

 

[Hadrian]

I actually find Threshold a fun episode. Sure it doesn't really make a lot of sense, but it is fun.

I think its like the Turkish Star Wars (

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). It's fun but doesn't make any sense.

 

[Forbin]

First Contact? I don't think Braga was on staff yet for "The Best of Both Worlds".

GAH! I meant All Good Things... :foreheadslap:
Sorry.

 

[Forbin]

I don't think anyone is absolving Berman of blame. Just recognizing that there were other factors at play as well. And I'm not sure I'd give up a super well paying job because of burn out.

I haven't! 34 years doing the same crap - 2 or 3 to retirement. I'm hanging on like a remora.

 

[eyeresist]

The worst part of it was Padma Lakshmi (who fortunately makes a much better host). To me, it was very cliched and would have been forgettable without her but not as bad as a lot of people say. Though I did like the part where T'Pol plays judge. Just curious, do you think Precious Cargo still would have been an abomination if they got a better actress?

I agree that the guess actress really ruined the ep. Admittedly the script was pretty cliched, but I can't help thinking how much better the end result it might have been if the princess had been played by the actress who played Ezri in DS9.

 

[suarezguy]

Braga's writing throughout Voyager seemed to influence if not set a lot of the general tone, as if by at least season 3 he was Taylor's right hand man, although he indeed wasn't running things until season 5.

I'm not fond of a lot of his work or influence/style, and especially how he and Berman handled Enterprise (I doubt it was a network directive for T'Pol to generally act like a Seven clone or Archer be incompetent), but they also did have some very good ideas and moments and I don't have personal dislike for either.

IIRC Behr and Moore were pretty hostile to Voyager and dismissive of Berman's role in DS9 so that could contribute to their being particular antagonism against Berman and Braga.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm not fond of a lot of his work or influence/style, and especially how he and Berman handled Enterprise (I doubt it was a network directive for T'Pol to generally act like a Seven clone or Archer be incompetent),

Well, no, not everything wrong was the result of studio interference. There's even quite a few things on Voyager I'm convinced UPN wasn't entirely at fault for. But the point is, Berman and Braga aren't the criminal hacks responsible for all of the Trek franchise's woes that fandom has frequently painted them as either.

 

[JWPlatt]

Well, no, not everything wrong was the result of studio interference. There's even quite a few things on Voyager I'm convinced UPN wasn't entirely at fault for. But the point is, Berman and Braga aren't the criminal hacks responsible for all of the Trek franchise's woes that fandom has frequently painted them as either.

You'll have to support that claim by identifying at least one other criminal hack and their offense. Name names.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Wow! I completely forgot about those! (Sorry, I'm still not used to this new setup. I meant to quote the initial post about the Berman & Braga fan fiction on reddit) I never hated Berman & Braga. I didn't find much of their stuff particularly interesting, I just thought it was funny back in the day how people were complaining about them actively trying to destroy Star Trek. So, that got my creative juices flowing and I starting writing episodic stories about what would happen if Berman & Braga really were out to destroy Star Trek (and who they would team up with to do so). Looking back, I may have been a little more prophetic than I initially realized, since I predicted Nemesis' box office bomb and Star Trek's reboot

Doing a voyager rewatch, I actually found Seasons 5 and 6 to be the most entertaining. But I'll still stand by my statements about Threshold and These Are the Voyages... being god awful

 

[JWPlatt]

But I'll still stand by my statements about Threshold and These Are the Voyages... being god awful

Yeah, I'm sure you get all kinds of hate mail about your contrary opinion on those.