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Why Didn't Starfleet Command Use Starfighters? | The Templin Institute

At any rate, Type 18 is the smallest craft with explicit, built-in guns in evidence. From VOY on, the artists began drawing phaser strips onto their shuttles, starting with Type 8. But Type 18 has what appears to be three pairs of TMP style ball emitters on the dorsal side of its "hem" (I wonder if there were any on the ventral side which we never got to see), plus that suggestive box on the roof with two barrels.

Why arm these things? They were never deployed offensively AFAWK, and the heroes Defiant in general saw no reason to use shuttles for any purpose, unless forced by weird circumstance involving spatiotemporal anomalies. Perhaps Sisko thought he would need force multipliers, but never did. Or perhaps Starfleet originally thought a Borg-fighter would need these things, and these were the only auxiliaries compatible with the ship when Sisko repurposed her as a Dominion-scouter. The guns might have been something the heroes never could be bothered to remove, even though they had never been useful.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Some F-104 variants were capable of carrying tactical nuclear warheads.
Capable, but only with hardware that was never deployed. Although originally intended to be carried by the F-104, the AIR-2 GENIE atomic rocket was only tested, and its the "trapeze" launching rail apparatus was never put onto service aircraft. Only F-89s, F-101Bs and F-106s were ever operational with the things.
 
Making the assorted unguided or guided nuclear AAMs operational would nevertheless primarily have been a matter of making the decision and signing the orders. Putting nukes on top of Saturn V stacks would call for greater effort beyond that already done in our reality, and the Trek folks managed that just fine...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Project Icarus called for just that.

The Space Review even had a drawing from:
GIANT BOMBS ON GIANT ROCKETS: PROJECT ICARUS.

This was broadcast at the end of 1979’s METEOR.

“Flashback” was a plan for an American Tsar Bomb to be carried on a B-52 with some surgery. I don’t think it would have been the layer cake design of Sakharov…but…

The remastered TOS episode might have used that drawing as a base.
 
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Shuttles aren't designed to be Fighters, they're glorified flying Cargo Vans or Mini Vans with a few phasers strapped on for self defense.

If you're going to make a Fighter, it needs enough Reactor Output in it's platform size and be relatively compact to be competitive to a larger vessel.

It needs to be able to deliver damage while being able to either "Avoid" or "Tank" damage.

Either way will work, but you need to design your fighter to get to that point.
 
At any rate, Type 18 is the smallest craft with explicit, built-in guns in evidence. From VOY on, the artists began drawing phaser strips onto their shuttles, starting with Type 8. But Type 18 has what appears to be three pairs of TMP style ball emitters on the dorsal side of its "hem" (I wonder if there were any on the ventral side which we never got to see), plus that suggestive box on the roof with two barrels.

Why arm these things? They were never deployed offensively AFAWK, and the heroes Defiant in general saw no reason to use shuttles for any purpose, unless forced by weird circumstance involving spatiotemporal anomalies. Perhaps Sisko thought he would need force multipliers, but never did. Or perhaps Starfleet originally thought a Borg-fighter would need these things, and these were the only auxiliaries compatible with the ship when Sisko repurposed her as a Dominion-scouter. The guns might have been something the heroes never could be bothered to remove, even though they had never been useful.

Timo Saloniemi

I suppose actually the Type 18 might have been something added as part of the “Dominion Scouter” role change: I’m not sure a Borg destroyer would have much use for auxiliaries but a ship on clandestine missions might. They could be used to do scouting, since they’re so small they might “fly under the radar” or not be considered threats and so scour an enemy. There is also the need to get through shields to land, which might be useful for clandestine operations, since you aren’t supposed to be able to beam through shields (unless the writers forgot this week).

It actually seems like it’d be better as a supplement to conventional shuttles, like something you’d launch a flight of four of to escort another shuttle. Which is not how we see them used in cannon at all...

Or maybe the LD just got tired of Type 15s always getting shot down and demanded something better.

Interestingly, they are supposed to be carried by the Sabre class too, presumably because larger shuttles don’t fit in its bays either?

I think it’s a interesting concept for a tactical shuttle but ultimately a bit hampered by its size: it can only really fit two people. That really limits the versatility compared to even one of Voyager’s speedboat shuttles. Given the later appearance of the Type 10 shuttle, however, Sisko must not have thought much of the Type 18 either.

I feel like the “tactical shuttle” would be the closest that Trek could reasonably come to other franchises conceptions of fighters as small, sometimes one man craft that are strictly military in nature. And even then, I’d think they’d be special mission craft more akin to SEAL vehicles than carrier fighters. I for one feel like the Orville’s cloaked shuttlecraft are kind of a stroke of brilliance: they’d be great in Trek for *not* getting shot down in “hot” situations and would allow you to hide on those pre first contact missions where you are trying to be subtle. And I imagine it’d be much, much easier to build a cloaking shuttle that might actually hold up against starship sensors that it’d be to build a shuttle that could fight ships.

To me what Trek calls fighters are more solidly equivalent to WW2 MTBs than planes: small, fast, heavily armed craft with multi-man crews that are essentially just miniature versions of capital ships, with only durability and range being the deciding difference between them.
 
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To me what Trek calls fighters are more solidly equivalent to WW2 MTBs than planes: small, fast, heavily armed craft with multi-man crews that are essentially just miniature versions of capital ships, with only durability and range being the deciding difference between them.

Agreed.

Which is why I think that vessels like the Runabout, Delta Flyer and the mid-size Maquis "fighter/transport" (larger version of the Val Jean from Preemptive Strike) are less problematic and implausible than the tiny "shuttlepod with attitude" type used by Cal Hudson's faction and later (hopefully as drones) by Starfleet during the Dominion War.
 
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Hmh? The "attack fighter" is as big as the runabout. It just leaves some personnel and their bunks ashore so that more guns can be carried. Basically, the same thing you do to turn a yacht into a gunboat.

Having the Defiant pack any dedicated anti-Dominion gear seems hard to swallow. Sisko dragged her out of a scrapyard for what looked like a barely sanctioned suicide mission. She was unready for the task, with an engine that did harm to the spaceframe at not-so-high speeds. Sure, Sisko would have hedged his bets by taking aboard anything he thought might help. But he wouldn't wait for Starfleet R&D to build that for him. If they had that much time and resources, they would have built an actual working starship instead (even if out of the Defiant). OTOH, if the supershuttles were supposed to make a difference in this specific case, being the smart way to invest in R&D when the mothership couldn't be fixed, Sisko would have made use of them!

Type 18 was aboard from day one, as seen for real in "The Search". The Chaffee type might also have been, since Sisko in his dream believed in a craft that had an aft hatch. Both would have to be either off the shelf, or then already installed extras, hence optimized either for anti-Borg work or for whatever the ship had been slated to do before being mothballed.

Since Type 18 lacks phaser strips, it would be fun to think it indeed is off the shelf, and a dusty one at that - perhaps having been designed in the early 24th century for that generation of starships. The Chaffee could be a newer model, and perhaps indeed built for the Defiant specifically, since it shares the engine cowling design down to the blue-glowie detail.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I would think that the Type 18 would be a contemporary of the Defiant in terms of the design, though perhaps the product of a different design team. I always felt like the shuttles on Defiant were kind of an afterthought, what with the cramped launch bay. On the other hand, Defiant was built as a Borg fighter and I do recall a standard shuttle being used to infiltrate a cube in BoBW, so perhaps that was the thinking behind giving the ship some limited shuttle capabilities and a well armed shuttlepod.

If the Type 18 were an off the shelf design, it’d be a natural development of the Type 15 I think: Starfleet was getting more tactical at that point anyways so making a dedicated tactical shuttle (with more emphasis on weapons than personnel transport) sort of makes sense. Possibly the Type 18 in universe, like the Studio model, started with a Type 15 spaceframe and then got developed from there. The Chafee is supposed to have derived from the Type 6 space frame in a similar manner, perhaps they were even competing projects for the same specification (and since the Defiant was a prototype, she carried both for test purposes)?
 
Agreed.

Which is why I think that vessels like the Runabout, Delta Flyer and the mid-size Maquis "fighter/transport" (smaller version of the Val Jean from Preemptive Strike) are less problematic and implausible than the tiny "shuttlepod with attitude" type used by Cal Hudson's faction and later (hopefully as drones) by Starfleet during the Dominion War.
Look at the Aeon Time Shuttle that Voyager encountered.

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That tiny little Temporal Shuttle packed in enough reactor power to potentially destroy USS Voyager.

32kLoer.jpg

At 6 meters in length, it's barely longer than the Argo Jeep, it has the length of modern SUV's.

UtF9jo6.png

The Aeon is TINY compared to a 20th Century F-14 TomCat and barely longer than VW Bug.

So it's a matter of packing in enough Reactor Power into a tiny platform and having a Weapons System capable of harnassing it.
 
Defiant was built as a Borg fighter and I do recall a standard shuttle being used to infiltrate a cube in BoBW, so perhaps that was the thinking behind giving the ship some limited shuttle capabilities and a well armed shuttlepod.

Indeed, the one weapon that worked against the Borg was the away team. Systems for delivering it might be the most important components of a defensive starship. Who knows, perhaps the distinct bow of the Defiant is a breaching pod, with two airlock tubes side by side behind those two panels, as perhaps suggested by the MSD?

If the Type 18 were an off the shelf design, it’d be a natural development of the Type 15 I think

It would also be easy to see Type 15 as a development of Type 18, though. Proceeding from one to the other would involve ditching that cumbersome skirt around the crew pod, and in general compacting the design.

It's not as if the Type numbers make much sense as chronologically assigned running numbers or anything. At the rate we got introduced to shuttle designs, there only existing 18 doesn't sound all that likely... No matter when in the timeline we should decide to insert the putative Type 1. The issues arise from the "pace" of introducing the known Type numbers.

Timo Saloniemi
 
That tiny little Temporal Shuttle packed in enough reactor power to potentially destroy USS Voyager.

With the advantage five hundred years of technological advancement. And the ability to travel through time thus eliminating the usual range problems.

I have no doubt that a late 24th Century shuttle or runabout could easily defeat an NX-class or even one of the more powerful Vulcan or Andorian battlecruisers within their own travel range either.
 
With the advantage five hundred years of technological advancement. And the ability to travel through time thus eliminating the usual range problems.
That's usually what happens with technological Advancement =D

I have no doubt that a late 24th Century shuttle or runabout could easily defeat an NX-class or even one of the more powerful Vulcan or Andorian battlecruisers within their own travel range either.
I'm sure the RunAbout / Delta Flyer could do it, I doubt the weaker smaller shuttles wold be up to snuff.
 
That's usually what happens with technological Advancement =D

I agree. I was just making the point that Braxton's fighter was briefly able to overcome Voyager due to that advantage and that's it not evidence that fighters in general are viable


I'm sure the RunAbout / Delta Flyer could do it, I doubt the weaker smaller shuttles wold be up to snuff.

The scenarios are a lot more limited, but I'd say it's possible given that a Type-9 was able to score minor damage even to Voyager.
 
And a futuristic version was able to shrug off two giant Klingon battlecruisers, which then were decisively defeated by a tiny Nova. Presumably thanks to a leap in protective capabilities, from stuff brought home from afar by our heroes.

How often would such leaps take place? The heroes encounter aliens whose tiny craft are a match for Starfleet's big ships oftenenough. Why not even more often? We get to see extreme mismatch every now and then. We really should be seeing moderate mismatch even more often, with alien medium craft besting UFP's finest even if their starfighters can't.

The primary mechanism at play here could be that catching up is trivial: a decade or so of exposure to superior fightercraft, and you are either toast or fully adapted, with fighters of your own to match, and with every other thing across the whole size range similarly upgraded. Better concentrate on the middle or high end of that range, then, perhaps? That is, even when you aren't perfectly adapted, your medium ships can play the role of fighter for you, while your fighters are useless.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The primary mechanism at play here could be that catching up is trivial: a decade or so of exposure to superior fightercraft, and you are either toast or fully adapted, with fighters of your own to match, and with every other thing across the whole size range similarly upgraded. Better concentrate on the middle or high end of that range, then, perhaps? That is, even when you aren't perfectly adapted, your medium ships can play the role of fighter for you, while your fighters are useless.

I mostly agree with this, which is why IMO fighters (at least for Starfleet) are better as a "development platform" kept for hail mary situations like the Dominion War or "final ring of defense" in-system work based out of starbases and ground facilities.

Larger, more versatile platforms, even if they're as small as the KBoP, Saber or Defiant (or even the Val Jean-type) have more legs in the modern escort/fighter roles in fleet actions and larger auxiliary vessels like the Delta Flyer and the runabout, while still having some of the same "combat endurance" issues, are at least more politically palatable with no real loss of functionality.
 
I think there are two kinds of “fighters” in Star Trek.

1. Actual fighters that fly in an atmosphere or near space.

2. Warships designed for combat in an atmosphere or in space that are small enough to be considered fighters rather than warships.

Starfleet’s design philosophy does not lend itself well to space and/or aerospace versions of true fighters and true warships as we know them to exist today. Nevertheless, Starfleet does inventory starships that could be considered fighters and/or warships by its own classification system. That does not, however, make them true fighters and true warships.

If Starfleet did choose to design and construct true fighters and warships, then it surely would do a good job. The resulting fleet of true fighters and warships would outmatch anything else in the fleet in its class.

So, why didn’t they make true fighters and warships?

I would suggest that the reason is because Starfleet maintains a technological lead over its contemporaries that makes its current starship design philosophy not only viable but perhaps also preferable in that it also helps to maintain that lead.
 
I'm sure Starfleet could do a good job at building fighters. Just like it would be a good job at building knights. Both would no doubt be equally worthless in combat, by virtue of the very concepts having been utterly outdated centuries ago...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Unfortunately, the Prometheus successfully demonstrated a multi-vector assault.

It seems likely to me that shields are multi-layered, multi-facetted, and variable, and can take damage, which means that some layers and facets could be stronger than others under certain circumstances. We sometimes hear about fore shields being down by so-many percent or aft shields failing, etc.

A strategically timed multi-vector assault could bring a tactical advantage.

Fighters could be used to pose a threat similar to that of a multi-vectored assault in some situations. Of course, not only fighters could pose such a threat, but any superior number of armed ships could.

Starknights, on the other hand… You mean Klingons in search of their Holy Grail, right?
 
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