why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Seed

[Warped9]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

How does he lie on "Space Seed?" He puts Khan planetside with no promise stated that they'll check back. He doesn't have to tell Khan his decision is logged (and will have to be explained). Now it's in Starfleet's and the Federation's hands. If they choose to leave Khan on Ceti Alpha 5 and order Kirk not to go back there then Kirk isn't to blame.

Why didn't Kirk simply turn Khan and his followers over to Federation authorities? Possibly for a similar reason as to what happened with McGiver aboard his own ship---there is a huge risk in transporting Khan and his group with a good possibility of Khan escaping yet again. Better to park them somewhere out of the way until the Federation decides what they want to do.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

.

 

[Timo]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

How does he lie on "Space Seed?"

Well, he tells Khan he slept for 200 years.

But what I meant was that Kirk would have every excuse and motivation, not to mention character history, to lie about "Space Seed" for the purposes of ST2:TWoK, as per the previous arguments.

Really, if Kirk has any sort of jurisdiction over Khan, he should also have the authority to act as the judge, jury and executioner on the spot. Starfleet can't count on its skippers phoning home for instructions every time something like this happens, not when mean time between calls is six months or so (as per all those stories of starships going missing or colonies falling silent). And the most important skill for a starship captain to master is when to yield gracefully, as most of the challenges he faces out there will be way out of his league anyway. Picard has to yield to Kevin Uxbridge and Q; Kirk has to yield to the Metrons, the Organians, Charlie Evans and so forth. If the permission to yield is written into the manuals, then it's inherently also a permission to show mercy to Khan, to donate him a bride along with a planet, and no questions asked.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Khan 2.0]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

if the Ent D had found them Picard wouldve had them stored in the transporter or maybe the holodeck (but then Khan probably wouldve taken the ship easy while Picard was busy having meetings about what to do)

 

[Warped9]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

How does he lie on "Space Seed?"

Well, he tells Khan he slept for 200 years.

But what I meant was that Kirk would have every excuse and motivation, not to mention character history, to lie about "Space Seed" for the purposes of ST2:TWoK, as per the previous arguments.

Timo Saloniemi

This is unfair retconning. Kirk didn't lie about 200 hundred years because the writers hadn't yet decided when TOS took place. And it's irrelevant what happens in TWOK because it wasn't even a glimmer of an idea. "Space Seed" was written as a standalone and nothing more.

Later Khan only blames Kirk for everything because he's essentially gone mad from sending fifteen years in a devestated environment, smething certainly not Kirk's fault.

 

[Timo]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Well, in "The Neutral Zone", Data thawed out some potential Khans without Picard even noticing. I guess the TNG scenario could have played out somewhat low key: Khan gets thawed out alongside the other three clowns, reaches the nearest LCARS panel, learns all about the 24th century world, and promptly confiscates the Stardrive Section for his revised world domination scheme, leaving most of Picard's crew unharmed and somewhat baffled about what the heck just happened.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Well, in "The Neutral Zone", Data thawed out some potential Khans without Picard even noticing. I guess the TNG scenario could have played out somewhat low key: Khan gets thawed out alongside the other three clowns, reaches the nearest LCARS panel, learns all about the 24th century world, and promptly confiscates the Stardrive Section for his revised world domination scheme, leaving most of Picard's crew unharmed and somewhat baffled about what the heck just happened.

Timo Saloniemi

I could actually see that happening.

New thread topic: Could Khan beat Worf?

 

[J.T.B.]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

About Kirk never going back to check on Khan.

Wouldn't Marla McGivers' family ask Starfleet to go back and check up on HER at least, or try to appeal against Kirk's decision to leave her with him? I mean sure, she was utter treason what she did (and for pretty lame reasons to boot) but you'd think there'd be some objection to it from her family.

Unless she was an orphan or something.

Indeed, I would think the family (or other concerned parties) would want to know the details of the judicial proceeding that "sentenced" McGivers to being marooned on a strange planet.

It's a dramatic resolution that doesn't bear much real scrutiny. The idea of a starship captain dispensing such extra-legal "justice" on Khan, McGivers et al is preposterous. Especially when the captain's legal prerogatives were outlined in " Mudd's Women," when Mudd's comparatively minor "traffic court" type offenses required that he be detained aboard until he could be remanded to Federation legal authorities.

It's a catchy way to wind up a good episode and throw in a Milton reference. I enjoy the episode and let it go.

 

[Shat Happens]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

"Chekov, who is ths man?" Starfleet didn't know, or no one pencilpusher read Enterprise's logs, or Starship Captains (Kirk at least, but Garth too and possibly others) have tremendous autonomy to do however they see fit, following general (emphasis on general) orders. Srsly, who can stop them?

things in the 23rd century were very different fomt the 24th.

 

[Warped9]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

"Chekov, who is ths man?" Starfleet didn't know, or no one pencilpusher read Enterprise's logs, or Starship Captains (Kirk at least, but Garth too and possibly others) have tremendous autonomy to do however they see fit, following general (emphasis on general) orders. Srsly, who can stop them?

things in the 23rd century were very different fomt the 24th.

There are big holes in TWOK so they could tell the story they wanted to tell.

 

[Timo]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Indeed, I would think the family (or other concerned parties) would want to know the details of the judicial proceeding that "sentenced" McGivers to being marooned on a strange planet.

...After which they'd probably crawl on their knees all the way from Earth to the Enterprise to thank Kirk for not humiliating the family with a public trial.

It's a dramatic resolution that doesn't bear much real scrutiny. The idea of a starship captain dispensing such extra-legal "justice" on Khan, McGivers et al is preposterous. Especially when the captain's legal prerogatives were outlined in " Mudd's Women," when Mudd's comparatively minor "traffic court" type offenses required that he be detained aboard until he could be remanded to Federation legal authorities.

On the other hand, Kirk is a justice of peace (and perhaps war?) capable of sealing marriages. And Mudd was a civilian, whereas McGivers was a soldier who had betrayed her superiors, organization and entire civilization and very well might have dodged a much bigger book being thrown at her by taking what Kirk offered. As for Khan, well, he didn't even exist.

It's a catchy way to wind up a good episode and throw in a Milton reference.

And to show that the world has moved forward a lot since the days of Hornblower, and then decided to take a U-turn and go even farther forward...

Kirk having the powers of God (or more, considering how many deities he trampled in his travels) is consistent with the majority of TOS and beyond. Him lacking those is an anomaly whenever it occurs.

I enjoy the episode and let it go.

The franchise chose not to let go - twice at least. A lot of good came out of that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

...After which they'd probably crawl on their knees all the way from Earth to the Enterprise to thank Kirk for not humiliating the family with a public trial.

"Thanks for not letting her present her case, with benefit of counsel, to a court that was not personally involved in the crime. Thanks for sentencing her to a lifetime exile on a distant planet, beyond contact from everyone she's ever known, rather than a term of imprisonment in a Federation facility." Doesn't sound likely. Actually it sounds more tailored to creating the perception that Starfleet, or Kirk, has something to hide and has an interest in silencing the parties involved.

On the other hand, Kirk is a justice of peace (and perhaps war?) capable of sealing marriages. And Mudd was a civilian, whereas McGivers was a soldier who had betrayed her superiors, organization and entire civilization and very well might have dodged a much bigger book being thrown at her by taking what Kirk offered.

What does officiating over a civil marriage ceremony have to do with bypassing the legal system in a criminal case? We know rather more about Starfleet's legal system than we do about Federation civilian courts, and nothing that happened with McGivers, a serving officer, is consistent with the court-martial proceedings that were shown. At any rate, the system you're envisioning, with victims enforcing their personal ideas of "justice," sounds more like vigilantism and ripe for abuse than the lofty ideals we've been led to expect of the Federation.

BTW, good to see you posting, Timo!

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

^ I just can't imagine McGivers would want to take her case to trial. What would her defense be? "But, Judge, I couldn't help myself! Khan is the hottiest of the hotties!"?

Besides, her desire was to remain with Khan (and escape a life surrounded by what she considered the lesser men of the 23rd century). Not likely to happen except by the opportunity Kirk gave her.

 

[Vandervecken]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

But Kirk DIDN'T bypass the legal system. He held a hearing that was entered into the official record. I really don't know what was required of him, but one fact is clear: he didn't make any attempt to keep his decision to maroon Kahn, McGivers, and Kahn's followers a secret. And since he was never called to any account over this, Starfleet and the Feds must have been ok with his actions.

 

[Warped9]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

But Kirk DIDN'T bypass the legal system. He held a hearing that was entered into the official record. I really don't know what was required of him, but one fact is clear: he didn't make any attempt to keep his decision to maroon Kahn, McGivers, and Kahn's followers a secret. And since he was never called to any account over this, Starfleet and the Feds must have been ok with his actions.

Yes.

 

[J.T.B.]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

But Kirk DIDN'T bypass the legal system. He held a hearing that was entered into the official record. I really don't know what was required of him, but one fact is clear: he didn't make any attempt to keep his decision to maroon Kahn, McGivers, and Kahn's followers a secret. And since he was never called to any account over this, Starfleet and the Feds must have been ok with his actions.

Agreed, that's how it was presented, I just don't find it credible.

 

[Clark Terrell]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Absolutely. TWOK ret cons it as having been "exile", something which was apparently forced upon Khan by Captain Kirk... but our only account of that in the movie is Khan's own, and he's had decades of bitterly twisting the facts inside his own head. Kirk became an outlet for Khan's anger over his little colony going wrong, Marla's death, everything that Khan the supposed superhuman was utterly helpless to prevent. It's misappropriated blame on Khan's part, really.

In reality, the decision made to put them on Ceti Alpha V in "Space Seed" was presented as being much more magnanimous and logical than that. And as you say, Khan in the episode sees it more as an opportunity for a new life, not as an exile being imposed upon him.

Exactly. Khan uses revisionist history to paint a picture of a vengeful Kirk sending him into a hopeless situation, which is not what happened at all. And why would Khan assume that Kirk would return to the planet to check up on him? He wasn't Kirk's responsibility once he left the Enterprise, nor was he the responsibility of Starfleet as a whole. And given that Terrell and Chekov clearly thought they were on Ceti Alpha VI, it should have been obvious to Khan that no one in the Federation had any idea the planet exploded or laid waste to its neighbor.

 

[Warped9]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

Absolutely. TWOK ret cons it as having been "exile", something which was apparently forced upon Khan by Captain Kirk... but our only account of that in the movie is Khan's own, and he's had decades of bitterly twisting the facts inside his own head. Kirk became an outlet for Khan's anger over his little colony going wrong, Marla's death, everything that Khan the supposed superhuman was utterly helpless to prevent. It's misappropriated blame on Khan's part, really.

In reality, the decision made to put them on Ceti Alpha V in "Space Seed" was presented as being much more magnanimous and logical than that. And as you say, Khan in the episode sees it more as an opportunity for a new life, not as an exile being imposed upon him.

Exactly. Khan uses revisionist history to paint a picture of a vengeful Kirk sending him into a hopeless situation, which is not what happened at all. And why would Khan assume that Kirk would return to the planet to check up on him? He wasn't Kirk's responsibility once he left the Enterprise, nor was he the responsibility of Starfleet as a whole. And given that Terrell and Chekov clearly thought they were on Ceti Alpha VI, it should have been obvious to Khan that no one in the Federation had any idea the planet exploded or laid waste to its neighbor.

Yes.

 

[Shat Happens]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

MGivers (and Khan himself) was given a choice; with so many class-M planets, and warp speed cheap, possibly at some point the Federation passed a law giving criminals the choice of exile. Or mind therapy from that horrible machine in the Tantalus planet. Or exile in a loon planet like Arkham Aylum, I mean Elba 2 (with the Joker, I mean captain Garth).

Anyway, it's clear that you can retire to a planet if you want to in the 23rd century. Either a barren shitball for free, or a nice one for a price like Flinnt.

I believe TNG had some episodes about lone colonists too.

 

[Timo]

Re: why didnt Kirk put khan back in the freezer at the end of Space Se

But if we interpret TOS as describing one integrated universe, we should remember that the very concept of punishing criminals is considered outdated. You don't punish a thief or a superhuman tyrant any more than you would punish a cancer patient or somebody who had broken a leg - instead, you cure him.

Not that Khan's offense would have been being superhuman tyrant, of course. That was one of his virtues, rather than vices, according to the heroes. It's only in ST:ID that Khan is labeled a war criminal, and even that is probably just a dirty lie, considering the person who makes the claim. No, Khan would go to trial for taking over the Enterprise and doing nasty things to her crew. And for that crime, his "sentence" of medical treatment might be mitigated by him being an arrogant superman by birth.

But Kirk DIDN'T bypass the legal system. He held a hearing that was entered into the official record. I really don't know what was required of him, but one fact is clear: he didn't make any attempt to keep his decision to maroon Kahn, McGivers, and Kahn's followers a secret.

Umm, what? The point was that there never was any hearing. Kirk opened the case, declared all charges summarily dropped, and closed the case. Any discussion about maroonings came only after that. So did the very much off-the-record offering of exile vs. court martial for McGivers, which suggests that her charges were not even the subject of the open-and-shut case, or else Kirk could no longer have threatened her with the court martial option. Starfleet cannot divine much from browsing Kirk's "official" records, then.

But those records do appear to feature a fellow named Khan who was declared innocent of something. Kirk must have written quite a fairy tale around his "official" entries to keep that manageable. Or then we must accept that he indeed has the authority to declare Khan innocent, maroon him, keel-haul him, beatify him, or marry him off to one of his officerettes.

with so many class-M planets, and warp speed cheap, possibly at some point the Federation passed a law giving criminals the choice of exile.

But with warp speed cheap, exiles wouldn't stay exiled for very long unless they were really polite and law-abiding...

Timo Saloniemi