• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Why didn't Harry just get an MD?

Guy Gardener

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
If he was so worried about "rank" so worried about being at the bottom of the Totem why would he try to raise through the ranks via his engineering qualifications or the command track?

Almost every one on board was an engineer competing for the same jobs and the same advancement. If it took them 20 years to get home, Harry would still be an ensign.

However, there was no Doctor and no medical staff whatsoever.

Open goal.

Even if he went for a counselling degree, rather than an outright medical degree, he was going to be CMO which was an automatic bump to Lieutenant commander or Commander and might even leapfrog Kim over the Indian and assume Lieutenant Commander Chakotay's position as first Officer.

Between computers, learning drugs and fallout from the eugenics wars, exactly how many months would it take Harry to become a Doctor if Uhura was able to retrain for her communications position after having her mind completely wiped by NOMAD so well that she didn't even have language skills: OVERNIGHT!????

First Officer Commander Doctor Harold Kim, in less than a year.

Worth a shot?

But would you go to Harry if you had crotchrot?
 
I think your plan shows too much initiative and creative thinking to be thought of by Harry.
 
Harry would have become addicted to the holodeck like Barclay if he spent that much time in there learning to become a doctor.
 
But then the writers wouldn't have easy "OH NOES, OUR ONLY MEDIC!" moments whenever something interesting happened to the DOc.
 
Even if he went for a counselling degree, rather than an outright medical degree, he was going to be CMO which was an automatic bump to Lieutenant commander or Commander and might even leapfrog Kim over the Indian and assume Lieutenant Commander Chakotay's position as first Officer.
1) Why would being a counselor make anyone a Chief Medical Officer? That makes no sense at all.

2) Even if Kim were to become a medical doctor, there's nothing in Trek canon to suggest it would be "an automatic bump to Lieutenant commander or Commander." There are, in fact, at least two things to suggest he would not: a) Bashir as a CMO started as Lt JG; and b) to be a Commander, one has to pass the Bridge Officer Examination.

3) Without taking the BOE, the CMO would not be in the chain of command, and therefore Kim, in this hypothetical situation, would not "leapfrog" Commander Chakotay to assume the First Officer position.
 
The BOE is not taken to get the rank of commander, it's taken to be allowed to take command on the bridge. Harry was taking command on the bridge since the beginning so he most probably passed it back in the academy. I doubt he would have been allowed a bridge position if he hadn't passed the Bridge officers exam since he was a bridge Officer.

Bashirs Boss was a commander. Bashir wasn't even on a Federation base. The Station was in orbit of Bajor (in the pilot) which had millions of Doctors on it.... "hundreds?" Bashirs "starfleet" crew he had to look after was tiny (a few dozen?). Bashir's staff was almost nonexistant. However, it was his first posting straight out of the academy and... Bashir was not an Ensign. Ezri was also instantly promoted to Lieutenant when her counsellors degree came through. Position dictates rank.And Position is about how important where you are standing is tactically, how much staff you have, and how many people you have to look after. If Kim got his MD, he was standing on the only federation ship inthe quadrant, he had a 150 people to look after and was expected to "cure" planetary level stuff ups and while doing this he needed authority on the ship to do everything he needed without waiting for permission from his superiors...

His nurse (by season 4) is a fricking lieutenant!

To be Voyagers Dioctor requires a certain level of rank because of the size/class ship which voyager is and because of the mission wheelhouse it is usually intended to be sent on. It's irresponsible to let a lesser (or higher) rank do it... What was the rank of the original Doctor?

I found this on Memory Alpha,:

Played by actor Jeff McCarthy, this character was never named in script or dialog. However, a non-canon novelization (Pocket VOY: Caretaker) and the Star Trek Customizable Card Game identify him as Dr. Fitzgerald with a rank of lieutenant commander.

In the non-canon Star Trek: The Badlands duology he was named Dr. Bist (this possibly being his first name).
It is speculated by fans that this character could be officers T. Ziegler or L. McGarry, as these were two names of lieutenant commanders in the casualty list displayed in "Imperfection".

(the west wing joke is still hilarious.)

And IMDB also says that his name is Fitzgerald which almost confirms the rank.

The MD position on Voyager REQUIRED a lieutenant commander and ther's very little getting around that (Co-hologram-ough) because the job was too hard for a lieutenant but too easy for a commander.

I wonder if Kim and Kes would have wound up together spending all that time together in sickbay?
 
The BOE is not taken to get the rank of commander, it's taken to be allowed to take command on the bridge. Harry was taking command on the bridge since the beginning so he most probably passed it back in the academy. I doubt he would have been allowed a bridge position if he hadn't passed the Bridge officers exam since he was a bridge Officer.
The BOE is apparently required for a rank of commander, as then-Lt Commander Troi in "Thine Own Self" is required to pass the BOE in order to be promoted to full Commander. On the other hand, it is possible that the BOE is only required for non-command division officers who are interested in (bridge) command situations.

The second point is mostly conceded, considering he was serving as a bridge officer. However, due to the wide latitude Starfleet Captains are routinely allowed in discretion, I would also add that one may not necessarily have needed to pass the BOE in order for the Captain or an agent acting in the Captain's stead to give a specific officer the command chair.

Bashirs Boss was a commander. Bashir wasn't even on a Federation base. The Station was in orbit of Bajor (in the pilot) which had millions of Doctors on it.... "hundreds?"
The rank of the station's CO is irrelevant to Bashir's rank, as is the presence of Bajoran doctors on Bajor (IIRC, the planet was about three hours away by runabout, after all). Since the station was under Starfleet administration, none of those doctors would have "outranked" Bashir, even though the station was owned by Bajor.

Bashirs "starfleet" crew he had to look after was tiny (a few dozen?). Bashir's staff was almost nonexistant. However, it was his first posting straight out of the academy and... Bashir was not an Ensign.
In 2369 ("Captive Pursuit"), the station housed approximately three hundred individuals, all of whom Bashir would've been responsible for as CMO of the station. Presumably that number continued to increase from that point forward, considering it was only the sixth episode of the season and travel to the Gamma Quadrant had yet to begin in earnest. In addition to the fixed population of the station, Bashir would have been responsible for visitors. You're correct that he was not an ensign; he was a lieutenant (junior grade), only one step above ensign.

Ezri was also instantly promoted to Lieutenant when her counsellors degree came through.
It was lieutenant (junior grade), actually, and the promotion came through at the behest of Captain Sisko, who also arranged for the remainder of her training to be waived. Ezri Dax, therefore, was an unusual situation, an anomaly (and, after all, a joined Trill with eight previous lifetimes of experience, one of which had been as a highly respected diplomat). If she had not transferred to DS9, she would've returned to Destiny and assumed, as she noted several times, an assistant ship's counselor position.

If Kim got his MD, he was standing on the only federation ship inthe quadrant, he had a 150 people to look after and was expected to "cure" planetary level stuff ups and while doing this he needed authority on the ship to do everything he needed without waiting for permission from his superiors...
I'm sure he would've been promoted; completing a medical degree is, after all, an achievement worthy of recognition with a rank higher than ensign. However, I dispute that there's any reason to believe that he would've automatically been elevated to lieutenant commander, and there's even less to believe he would go from ensign to full commander. There's no reason he would skip anywhere from two to three entire grades in rank, especially since Bashir, as second in his class, graduated as a lieutenant (junior grade), not a lieutenant commander.

His nurse (by season 4) is a fricking lieutenant!
This is not necessarily indicative of a need for him to be ranked higher than lieutenant in this hypothetical situation, however. As CMO, his position would obviously be more important than rank, which is why a lieutenant (jg) can give orders to superior officers in medical matters. As such, the rank of his (part-time, let's face it; Paris, the helmsman, was wrong choice for a nurse) nurse would be immaterial when compared to his position.

What was the rank of the original Doctor? [...] And IMDB also says that his name is Fitzgerald which almost confirms the rank.
Non-canon sources and IMDB do not confirm anything. As the section you quoted pointed out, his name and rank were not given in the script or in dialogue. The information submitted to IMDB could as easily come from the "Caretaker" novelization or the CCG. As it so happens, however, you don't need either to prove that he was indeed a lieutenant commander, as this screenshot on MA does show him to be ranked as such.

The MD position on Voyager REQUIRED a lieutenant commander and ther's very little getting around that (Co-hologram-ough) because the job was too hard for a lieutenant but too easy for a commander.
That said, we do not know with any certainty that the CMO position on Voyager "REQUIRED" that rank. For all we know, Voyager's CMO was already a lieutenant commander prior to his transfer to that ship. Considering Bashir was CMO of a station with approximately three hundred individuals living on it, I see no reason to presume that Voyager's CMO position "was too hard for a lieutenant." After all, as you pointed out, Voyager's complement was approximately one hundred fifty individuals when the ship set out for the Badlands, half the number of souls Bashir was responsible for at the beginning of his CMO tenure. Nor could it have been "too easy for a commander" because a medical officer would have needed to take the BOE to advance to that rank, as Beverly Crusher discussed with Deanna Troi.


To distill my point down to a very basic form: I think your hypothetical situation made a lot of assumptions that were unfounded in terms of rank and promotion. The premise of the idea, however, is intruiging. Watching a character, whether it was Kim or someone else, undergo the training and education necessary to move into a radically different discipline than they had originally trained in could've been a very interesting ongoing characterization choice.
 
psychopere seyz
The rank of the station's CO is irrelevant to Bashir's rank, as is the presence of Bajoran doctors on Bajor (IIRC, the planet was about three hours away by runabout, after all). Since the station was under Starfleet administration, none of those doctors would have "outranked" Bashir, even though the station was owned by Bajor.
I recall the ferengi complaining that Bashir musn't be very good because he doesn't charge for his services, and that they should "I can't recall which one of them" to one of their doctors.

In 2369 ("Captive Pursuit"), the station housed approximately three hundred individuals, all of whom Bashir would've been responsible for as CMO of the station. Presumably that number continued to increase from that point forward, considering it was only the sixth episode of the season and travel to the Gamma Quadrant had yet to begin in earnest. In addition to the fixed population of the station, Bashir would have been responsible for visitors. You're correct that he was not an ensign; he was a lieutenant (junior grade), only one step above ensign.

300 civilians and starfleet and Bajoaran militia. 300 is not a lot of people, and most of them would have been civilians who were not part of the federation and had no interest in dealing with the federation if it was in the slightest bit difficult.

You say one grade like some people don't spend 7 years as an ensign.

Besides, B'Elanna was what? an Able crewman? Some sort of Petty officer? They frogmarched up the chain of command to lieutenant junior grade bypassing half dozen ranks it must take 30 years get through without going to the Academy and ignoring.

It was lieutenant (junior grade), actually, and the promotion came through at the behest of Captain Sisko, who also arranged for the remainder of her training to be waived. Ezri Dax, therefore, was an unusual situation, an anomaly (and, after all, a joined Trill with eight previous lifetimes of experience, one of which had been as a highly respected diplomat). If she had not transferred to DS9, she would've returned to Destiny and assumed, as she noted several times, an assistant ship's counselor position.
What can you learn in 3 months she hasn't learnt int he last 200 years? Sisko only cut of the last 3 months of her course and probably the end exam by the sound of things.

non-canon sources and IMDB do not confirm anything. As the section you quoted pointed out, his name and rank were not given in the script or in dialogue. The information submitted to IMDB could as easily come from the "Caretaker" novelization or the CCG. As it so happens, however, you don't need either to prove that he was indeed a lieutenant commander, as this screenshot on MA does show him to be ranked as such.
Well of course non canon doesn't help but it can point us in a right direction as easily as a wrong direction. So it's really just a question of if you are feeling lucky?

Gosh Jeff is much younger than I remember him being. He's all grey in his IMDB shot. One of my arguments was going to be about old guys and seniority, but he was just a kid too.

A while back there was some spud talking about military life which I took to heart. If a job requires a lieutenant commander they're going to staff it with a lieutenant commander. It's just that simple. If Jeff's charatcer was a full Commander he wouldn't have been on Voyager, he would have been looking for a medical position somewhere else, a bigger ship, a hospital, meanwhile if was a lieutenant then he would have been a junior doctor in some ones staff on Voyager or he would have been in charge of a medical staff in a less prestigious or less complicated position on an even smaller ship.

Starfleet isn't just 10 guys on one ship. Casualties for the Dominion war was predicted to fall into the trillions eventually (mostly civilian) and crew don't decide where they go, they're told. Was there a reason that Cavit, Chakotay and "Fitzgerald" were all lieutenant Commanders instead of Commanders? It's a dinky little ship intended for short range tactical missions or escort duty, One of those kids from Good Shepherd said they just wanted in and out to fulfil their shiptime quota, and another said she was so shit at her job that she should have been bumped off the ship after a couple weeks if they were still in the AQ. Voyager was so tiny that a decent Captain didn't need full commander to prop her up and that a Lieutenant Commander could handle the job of First Officer well enough.

Whoever replaced "Fitzgerald" had to be the same rank if they were in the chain of command, because these things were not decided by Janeway but by the Officers designing this class of ship years earlier deciding how best for the ship to utilise fleet resources as much as the intrepid Class would compliment the fleet itself. My gods! Do you think Janeway has the balls to staff an bridge position with a greenhorn on his first day? No. It's in the rule book.Operations is entry level. Prove yourself there and move up. Flounder and you're kicked off the ship to less demanding position elsewhere making room for a new greenhorn afforded the same opportunity to excel and move up or flounder and get kicked off.

Voyager wasn't a dream job. it was a launching pad to a dream job. A means to an end, but it was also a buffer to make sure only the cream got through tot he next level. Janeway would have washed Kim out after a month if the ship would have stayed in the AQ because he just showed no initiative of flair. She had to put up with a lot of people she didn't care for, on the other hand crew that excelled on Voyager would get promoted and move off to a decent sized vessel/station taking part in important missions to the federation.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top