Quite right, a magnificent score.
This doesn't alter the fact the scores were ultra bland and robbed TNG of that wonderful musical creativity and extra dimensionality it possessed during the early run.
Why did the music change so much
- Thread starter Phily B
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Quite right, a magnificent score.
This doesn't alter the fact the scores were ultra bland and robbed TNG of that wonderful musical creativity and extra dimensionality it possessed during the early run.
But it's also like complaining that Renaissance music doesn't sound more like Baroque music. The music of the show is reflective of the time it aired. When evaluating the show now, it needs to be viewed in context.
Re: The Rick Berman quote above.
I'm sorry, I don't see how the music in the first three season were doing anything to take away from the scene, as a matter of fact it helps me remember scenes more because of the way the music did things as being, well, there!
Riker's "Fire!" was greatly enhanced by the music sting.
Picard wondering out-loud if they fell into a booby trap as the systems on the ship fail near a commercial break in "Booby Trap."
The grand music in the opening scene of the second season as the Enterprise and an Excelsior fly along one another.
There is some great, great, music in the first three seasons that makes scenes stand out because the music is so great, unique, and perceptible.
I'd honestly strain to think of a scene that stands out between seasons 4 and the end of the series because of the music because at that point that's when the music became fairly bland and the "sonic wallpaper."
The music in the first three seasons did not, by any means, take away from the scenes or the show or upstage the action going on the screen. It made those scenes stand out.
I'm sorry, I don't see how the music in the first three season were doing anything to take away from the scene, as a matter of fact it helps me remember scenes more because of the way the music did things as being, well, there!
Riker's "Fire!" was greatly enhanced by the music sting.
Picard wondering out-loud if they fell into a booby trap as the systems on the ship fail near a commercial break in "Booby Trap."
The grand music in the opening scene of the second season as the Enterprise and an Excelsior fly along one another.
There is some great, great, music in the first three seasons that makes scenes stand out because the music is so great, unique, and perceptible.
I'd honestly strain to think of a scene that stands out between seasons 4 and the end of the series because of the music because at that point that's when the music became fairly bland and the "sonic wallpaper."
The music in the first three seasons did not, by any means, take away from the scenes or the show or upstage the action going on the screen. It made those scenes stand out.
I agree. I'm not sure why Berman and co. decided that lively music was a detriment to the episode. The blander music in later-TNG, DS9, VOY and season one-ish of ENT just wasn't very inspiring. Whenever a duff episode would come along, shoddy music would help to send me to sleep! The music in seasons one to three (and TOS) had lots of great music that added to the urgency, romance or humour of the scene.
Does anyone know why this decision was reversed in ENT? It started somewehere in season two, I think. Perhaps when the ratings were continuing to drop, they were willing to try anything?
Does anyone know why this decision was reversed in ENT? It started somewehere in season two, I think. Perhaps when the ratings were continuing to drop, they were willing to try anything?
That quote from Berman is revisionist history at its best. Time and again during the shows' runs he denounced the use of dynamic music. He relegated it's use to that of wallpaper, with anything more than Modern Trek's use of horn swells being a fireable offense.
Only rarely was the music more than boring chords, and it was when music played a pivotal role (Inner Light, etc.) or featured singing (Vic Fontane, 7 of 9, the Doctor). It was also played up in holodeck episodes like DS9's Bond spoof and VOY's Bride of Chaotica.
But by and large, Berman viewed the bland music as Modern Trek's signature. Case in point, DS9's Tribble episode. DS9's staff wanted the music to reflect the spirit of TOS. But it was Berman who nixed it because in the end it was a DS9 episode and the music should reflect that of Berman's wallpaper music as opposed to that used in TOS. Stupid.
Only rarely was the music more than boring chords, and it was when music played a pivotal role (Inner Light, etc.) or featured singing (Vic Fontane, 7 of 9, the Doctor). It was also played up in holodeck episodes like DS9's Bond spoof and VOY's Bride of Chaotica.
But by and large, Berman viewed the bland music as Modern Trek's signature. Case in point, DS9's Tribble episode. DS9's staff wanted the music to reflect the spirit of TOS. But it was Berman who nixed it because in the end it was a DS9 episode and the music should reflect that of Berman's wallpaper music as opposed to that used in TOS. Stupid.
I love the TOS music. So many distinctive cues and themes.
And I'm a quasi-professional musician about to lose my union card, but . . .
I can see Berman's point. If I'm taken out of the story to notice or hum or admire or hate the music, I am taken out of the story.
I prefer quirky, interesting music, truly. The Orion slave girl cue from Cage and tympani cue from Enemy Within are playing in my brain right now. Oops - there's the schmaltzy romance cue from Conscience of the King now. Now Spock's guitar theme: ner-ner-ner-ner-nerrrr; ner-ner-ner . . . well, you know the rest. I love them.
But I see his point.
And I'm a quasi-professional musician about to lose my union card, but . . .
I can see Berman's point. If I'm taken out of the story to notice or hum or admire or hate the music, I am taken out of the story.
I prefer quirky, interesting music, truly. The Orion slave girl cue from Cage and tympani cue from Enemy Within are playing in my brain right now. Oops - there's the schmaltzy romance cue from Conscience of the King now. Now Spock's guitar theme: ner-ner-ner-ner-nerrrr; ner-ner-ner . . . well, you know the rest. I love them.
But I see his point.
I have heard this notion that Berman supposedly said he wanted "sonic wallpaper" over and over and over again, but I have yet to see the source. Can anyone provide an actual source, such as an interview, in which Berman said this? Or are we to put this in the category of Nichelle Nichols' MLK encounter?
Also, Dennis McCarthy and Jay Chattaway, who stayed with the show, say very different things about Berman, and the directions he gave them concerning music, than Ron Jones does. Remember that Jones was fired. His recounting of the situation is bound to be colored somewhat.
Also, Dennis McCarthy and Jay Chattaway, who stayed with the show, say very different things about Berman, and the directions he gave them concerning music, than Ron Jones does. Remember that Jones was fired. His recounting of the situation is bound to be colored somewhat.
There's a difference between defending and explaining. From the posts explaining the rationale of the time, I'm really not seeing anyone condoning mediocrity and blandness, nor denying that the music really was mediocre and bland.
I love the music created for TOS, but I hated its use in TOS. Of course the music cues were reused, and reused and reused. And as such a lush romantic theme would be the same for each love interest, and that isn't how emotion works.
Use a movie as reference, Attack of the clones, the romantic scenes between Padma and Anakin features this great musical score from JOhn Williams. Its sweeping, larger then life, music. And in no way did those two actors portray an emotional connection that the score was giving. Not even close. It makes me laugh actually watching the scene, there is so little actually connection between the characters either in chemistry or dialogue.
As for Ron's music, in general I really liked it, but there were times that it did take me out of the episode. And I can certainly understand a composer wanting to bring some of those early seasons to life (as they didn't have much on the screen in many of the first two seasons in my opinion), but especially in those earlier episodes I really felt his music over played the emotions.
I still liked his scoring better then McCarthy though.
Ron's felt more like music you would get in TOS (to a degree), but TNG was so stylistically more sedate then TOS.
It's called milking the cow for all it's worth to pay for the limosine. If any show could afford to take risks it was Trek but Berman was a surefooter and a bean counter.
I do remember being in alot of pain watching Lost in Space. that music was horrible except for the Johnny Williams main theme of course for which we all tuned in for especially the second version with the piccillo and stuff.
I do remember being in alot of pain watching Lost in Space. that music was horrible except for the Johnny Williams main theme of course for which we all tuned in for especially the second version with the piccillo and stuff.
From The Music of Star Trek: The Next Generation in the Star Trek Communicator magazine #111, pg. 57:
Dennis McCarthy: "I did 'Encounter' and everybody loved it, and I did 'Haven' with the same sort of romantic feel. So Rick Berman came to me after 'Haven' and I said how do you like the score, and he said, 'You know... it's just not what I want to hear.' He was very nice about it, but basically said, 'Don't ever write that again.' He said, 'I don't want music in our face, I want it to be wallpaper.'
There are more examples, but it will take a while to hunt down. But this one pretty much nails it down. And it's not Jones, but McCarthy giving the quote.
Dennis McCarthy: "I did 'Encounter' and everybody loved it, and I did 'Haven' with the same sort of romantic feel. So Rick Berman came to me after 'Haven' and I said how do you like the score, and he said, 'You know... it's just not what I want to hear.' He was very nice about it, but basically said, 'Don't ever write that again.' He said, 'I don't want music in our face, I want it to be wallpaper.'
There are more examples, but it will take a while to hunt down. But this one pretty much nails it down. And it's not Jones, but McCarthy giving the quote.
I never noticed a change in the soundtrack until I read about it only recently.
Thanks for sharing this! I had never seen an actual quote to this regard before.
Now, to be fair, this is McCarthy saying that Rick Berman basically said "I want it to be wallpaper." So that might not have been Berman's actual word choice but McCarthy's interpretation of it. I guess the crux of the issue here is whether Berman was actually pushing for music to be bland and uninteresting, or whether he simply thought the music as it was being written was actually detracting from the scenes and wanted a different style. Those are two different things.
What I find interesting about this quote, though, is that McCarthy says this conversation occurred after "Haven" in the first season. Yet the style of the music did not dramatically change until after the third season. Not just Ron Jones, but McCarthy too continued to write very melodic scores well beyond the first season. They pretty well dropped using the Jerry Goldsmith TMP theme as a recurring motif in their scores after season one, but otherwise the scores were still very melodic and nothing like the scores that would come in the later years.
^Well, wallpaper doesn't have to be bland and uninteresting, as I'm sure any interior decorator would agree. If Berman did use the word "wallpaper," he didn't mean he wanted it to be boring, he meant he wanted it to be good, but in a way that unobtrusively contributed to the overall feel of the scene, but that did so as a background element rather than as something that called attention to itself. Like the way the right choice of wallpaper in a room can make the room look and feel nicer even if you don't consciously pay attention to the wallpaper itself but just to the overall feel it contributes to.
And while it's true that the scores did retain a fair amount of melodic content for the first 2-3 years, it's also true that "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Haven" were a lot bigger and lusher than McCarthy's subsequent scores. Basically, McCarthy did those two in a very 1960s, TOS-influenced style, grand and romantic and cinematic, the sort of thing Bob Justman wanted for the music; but his subsequent TNG scores, while still somewhat melodic, were more in his own 1980s style, similar to the work he was simultaneously doing on MacGyver (albeit with less contemporary/pop influence). They included the occasional leitmotif, such as his Picard theme which was used so stirringly at the climax of "Yesterday's Enterprise," but weren't as dominated by recurring themes and motifs as the '60s-style stuff he did at the beginning. And then around season 4 it went even further toward atmospherics and "wallpaper." So it was a gradual transition, but "Farpoint" and "Haven" were definitely different from the rest. (Though they did occasionally let McCarthy cut loose with a richer score, particularly on DS9: "Emissary" and Generations.)
And while it's true that the scores did retain a fair amount of melodic content for the first 2-3 years, it's also true that "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Haven" were a lot bigger and lusher than McCarthy's subsequent scores. Basically, McCarthy did those two in a very 1960s, TOS-influenced style, grand and romantic and cinematic, the sort of thing Bob Justman wanted for the music; but his subsequent TNG scores, while still somewhat melodic, were more in his own 1980s style, similar to the work he was simultaneously doing on MacGyver (albeit with less contemporary/pop influence). They included the occasional leitmotif, such as his Picard theme which was used so stirringly at the climax of "Yesterday's Enterprise," but weren't as dominated by recurring themes and motifs as the '60s-style stuff he did at the beginning. And then around season 4 it went even further toward atmospherics and "wallpaper." So it was a gradual transition, but "Farpoint" and "Haven" were definitely different from the rest. (Though they did occasionally let McCarthy cut loose with a richer score, particularly on DS9: "Emissary" and Generations.)
Ehhh, take a look at it again, CoveZombie. It reads as McCarthy saying Berman was nice about the criticism but basically saying, "Don't ever write that again." And then he quotes Berman directly as saying, "I don't want music in our face, I want it to be wallpaper."
I have another article from an October 1992 Cinefantastique magazine that also delves into TNG's music, including quotes from Ron Jones as well. The bottom line from this article: Berman wanted the music to be like wallpaper. McCarthy and Jones absolutely agree on that. McCarthy saw it as a challenge (and a regular pay check) and took it on. Jones purposefully and blatantly ignored Berman and eventually got fired because of it. He even gives Berman and post-production producer Peter Lauritson credit because for as many times he didn't follow their guidelines, they still kept hiring him back!
And Christopher, I think you've got it right. I have just never been a fan of Berman's music taste for the show. Generations is another animal since it is a movie score and they allowed McCarthy to write, use and develop themes.
I have another article from an October 1992 Cinefantastique magazine that also delves into TNG's music, including quotes from Ron Jones as well. The bottom line from this article: Berman wanted the music to be like wallpaper. McCarthy and Jones absolutely agree on that. McCarthy saw it as a challenge (and a regular pay check) and took it on. Jones purposefully and blatantly ignored Berman and eventually got fired because of it. He even gives Berman and post-production producer Peter Lauritson credit because for as many times he didn't follow their guidelines, they still kept hiring him back!
And Christopher, I think you've got it right. I have just never been a fan of Berman's music taste for the show. Generations is another animal since it is a movie score and they allowed McCarthy to write, use and develop themes.
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SOMEtimes the sonic wallpaper takes me out of the story because I literally wonder how you could write ep after ep avoiding melody. It's possible. Mahler did it. (joke) But our ears are so trained for melody with accompaniment. Actually cross-culturally humans like a melody. So occasionally I do wonder how they do it. Now after this thread, I'm gonna be noticing the non-melodicness a LOT more. Great.
^Whereas my problem was that some of the composers did use brief melodies or phrases, but used the same ones over and over again, episode after episode. I got tired of hearing them.
^ That depends on the series and how music is used. In TOS, for example, they frequently re-used music cues from earlier episodes, so it was the responsibility of the editor, sound mixer, etc., as well as the producer, to choose the cues that were re-used. You couldn't blame the composers for hearing the same things over and over again.
OTOH, in all the modern Trek series, a completely original score was written for each episode. There was no re-use of cues what-so-ever. So if you're hearing the same things repeat over and over again, the blame for that lies with the composer, not with the editors.
OTOH, in all the modern Trek series, a completely original score was written for each episode. There was no re-use of cues what-so-ever. So if you're hearing the same things repeat over and over again, the blame for that lies with the composer, not with the editors.
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