I am not sure. But I am sure that this can and will affect non - Vulcans.
Why did the Federation tolerate some elements of Vulcan culture that actually may cause great harm to individuals?
- Thread starter BohandiAnsoid
- Start date
Here's the thing: the idea that the Federation is literally one, big, giant, centralized "utopia," as opposed to an alliance of civilized worlds sharing certain common values and interests, is a very modern one, that bears little or no resemblance to the way things were depicted on the Original Series. Indeed, TOS often portrayed the Federation as a very loose consortium of worlds who often had very little in common -- and whose members didn't always get along. (See "Journey to Babel.")
If anything, it seemed more like the United Nations than one single unified government.
The way I see it, the Federation (and Starfleet) is an organization driven by "utopian" ideals, not literally a utopia.
And, as is alway the case, reality doesn't always live up to a culture's highest ideals.
Hence, the drama and paradoxes of the human condition.
If anything, it seemed more like the United Nations than one single unified government.
The way I see it, the Federation (and Starfleet) is an organization driven by "utopian" ideals, not literally a utopia.
And, as is alway the case, reality doesn't always live up to a culture's highest ideals.
Hence, the drama and paradoxes of the human condition.
Vulcan was one of the founding worlds of the Federation. It wields enormous influence in Federation policymaking, probably equal to or perhaps second to Earth. The Federation isn't going to be able to just go in and remake Vulcan culture to fit human ideals. In addition, the Federation seems to generally let their member worlds run themselves as they see fit.
Much of the modern view of the Federation comes from how Picard describes it in TNG and, as I've pointed out before, Picard is quite often full of shit on that kind of stuff. He is rather elitist and likes to speechify on why the Federation is so much better than everyone else.
If you listen to others, like Kirk and Sisko, you get a picture much closer to what you are describing.
Is Vulcan a utopia?
The Federation is shown tolerating a lot, especially from the Klingons. So, a founding member, known for its secrecy around their cultural practices, being able to wield influence and keep traditions is not surprising.
No where is it stipulated that individual Vulcans are forced to participate.
The irony of what TC is saying that we also have many cultures on Earth, to this day, that practice Arranged Marriages.
It's their cultural tradition passed down from generation to generation.
I have friends IRL who live in arranged marriages by their parents.
Is it for me, no.
But it's his life, he chooses to abide by it, he's okay with it; despite living in the US and having no obligation to follow his cultures traditions.
He still chooses to go along with it and follow it.
It's their cultural tradition passed down from generation to generation.
I have friends IRL who live in arranged marriages by their parents.
Is it for me, no.
But it's his life, he chooses to abide by it, he's okay with it; despite living in the US and having no obligation to follow his cultures traditions.
He still chooses to go along with it and follow it.
Not all traditions are evil or bad.
In TOS the Federation was more like the UN or EU - a union of independent nation-states with a common military and currency. Each political entity sent ambassadors to other Federation member worlds.
In TNG the Federation is more like the United States. One dominant federal government overseeing semi or quasi independent states that, ultimately, are subordinate to the centralized government.
You seem to feel arranged marriages are, by definition, oppressive. While you are entitled to your point of view, that doesn't mean this is a universal truth, especially when dealing with truly alien cultures as opposed to the diverse cultures of your particular species.
In TNG the Federation is more like the United States. One dominant federal government overseeing semi or quasi independent states that, ultimately, are subordinate to the centralized government.
You seem to feel arranged marriages are, by definition, oppressive. While you are entitled to your point of view, that doesn't mean this is a universal truth, especially when dealing with truly alien cultures as opposed to the diverse cultures of your particular species.
Off topic, but even though what the Federation actually is remains a little vague in TOS and TNG, I like that there seems to be an evolution over the hundred years between the shows.
What are the exact rights and responsibilities of a Federation citizen, especially considering the various cultures that comprise it? Don't think that's ever been established.
I'd say the Federation definitely did not share a common military in TOS. After all, in Journey to Babel it's stated that there are Federation worlds on the verge of going to war with other Federation worlds. That'd be a bit tricky if they all shared a common military.
The intent in TOS was Starfleet was strictly an Earth organization.
Yeah, "Journey to Babel" doesn't work with the TNG conception of the Federation.
Along the lines of this thought and going back to the subject of arranged marriage, was it ever stated that was a Vulcan norm? Maybe this is unique to some philosophy that Sarek's family follows? Maybe this is not some planet wide one size fits all tradition.
I always thought that in TOS, they were in the midsts of integration. Though I also think that the Federation was originally conceived as a younger organization than the later shows showed it to be.
Not all traditions are evil or bad.
Bidi bidi bum. (If...)
Heck. The Search for Spock doesn't work with the TNG conception of the Federation! They take asylum on Vulcan. Sarek goes to "your (Kirk's) government".
Sarek's family strikes me as a bit of an outlier. In "Yesteryear" (TAS), Spock impersonates a cousin who states he is going on a journey to honor the gods at the family shrine.
SAREK: My apologies, visitor. I regret you were witness to that unfortunate display of emotion on the part of my son.
SPOCK: In the family, all is silence. No more will be said of it. Live long and prosper, Sarek of Vulcan.
SAREK: Peace and long life. You are of my family?
SPOCK: My name is Selek, an humble cousin descended of T'Pel and Sasak. I am journeying to the family shrine to honour our gods.
SAREK: You have a long way to go. Will you break your journey with us for a while, Cousin?
SPOCK: I am honoured. Is something wrong, Cousin?
SAREK: No, no. It was only that it seemed I know you.
SPOCK: A family resemblance to our forefathers, no doubt.
SAREK: No doubt. Well, come then. Allow me to welcome you to my home.
Later on, we receive more information about rather harsh tradition of a survival ordeal.
SAREK: Spock. Spock, being Vulcan means following disciplines and philosophies that are difficult and demanding of both mind and body.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.
SAREK: You constantly display your emotions. You have even been seen fighting in the street.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.
SAREK: The time draws near when you will have to decide whether you will follow Vulcan or human philosophy. Vulcan offers much. No war, no crime. Order, logic and control in place of raw emotions and instinct. Once on the path you choose, you cannot turn back.
Y SPOCK: Yes, father.
[Sarek's house]
AMANDA: I hope you were not disturbed by my son's behaviour, Selek.
SPOCK: No, my lady Amanda. Any child has much to learn. My young cousin has a more difficult road to travel than others.
AMANDA: You seem to understand him better than my husband.
SPOCK: It is difficult for a father to bear less than perfection in his son. Spock will find his way.
AMANDA: I hops so. I respect Vulcan and all its traditions, but it is a demanding life.
[Courtyard]
SAREK: Soon you will undergo your test of adulthood in the desert. To survive for ten days without food, water or weapon on Vulcan's Forge will demand more of you than anything ever has. To fail once is not a disgrace for others. If you fail, there will be those who will call you a coward all your life. I do not expect you to fail.
Y SPOCK: What if I do, father?
SAREK: There is no need to ask that question. You will not disappoint me. Not if your heart and spirit are Vulcan.
(Sarek leaves, and young Spock goes to his pet)
Y SPOCK: I-Chaya. what if I'm not a true Vulcan like they say?
[Bedroom]
SPOCK: (dictating) Personal log, stardate 5373.9, subjective time. The timeline seems to have changed again. Yet I do not believe I have done anything to disrupt it. My memory is quite clear regarding the date my cousin saved my life, and it is tomorrow. The kahs-wan ordeal is an ancient rite of warrior days. When Vulcans turned to logic, they reasoned they must maintain the tests of courage and strength to keep pure logic from making them weak and helpless.
Much of Vulcan tradition seems to be utilized to ensure order as part of the cost of logic.
In the first place, the Prime Directive. It's not for anyone else to tell the Vulcans what is and is not acceptable, unless it goes against the Federation Charter. Like caste based discrimination, as stated in DS9's "ACCESSION".
Secondly, arranged marriages may not be for you or me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.
Third, I don't think it's wrong or oppressive to have your emotions under control. As an example, using your Romulan comparison, they don't seem to have telepathic abilities... Vulcans do. You think it's a good idea for them to have those abilities and not have their emotions on check?
Before any civil war can't it be said the nation shares a common military?
Nicely put.
And, of course, remote colonies and outposts on the final frontier are more like the wild west.
"Wagon Train to the Stars" and all that.
