This, iirc. Or more concisely, because technobabble because it makes for some really cool shots. That's the long and short of it.
Why Did The Enterprise Hide In The Ocean?
- Thread starter TRON JA307020
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This, iirc. Or more concisely, because technobabble because it makes for some really cool shots. That's the long and short of it.
That's what I was originally asking if they explained it in the film. I guess if I decide to see it again I will watch out for that explanation chard.
Or the distress call was just a standard planetary distress call, which Starfleet would be obligated to respond to no matter what the reason was.
Huh? He didn't kidnap anybody. He invited Robau aboard the Narada, asked him if he knew Spock Prime, and then killed him. He got no information about Starfleet from him whatsoever. And as for Pike, same story. Except Nero tortured Pike after he'd already (according to you) sent Starfleet off to the Laurentian Sector and after he destroyed the cadet ships over Vulcan. So he didn't get that info from Pike either.
Just the fact that he didn't even know one of the ships was the Enterprise until he saw it's registry on the viewscreen is ample proof that he didn't know anything about the ships.
Doubtful. The Narada's technology was a century ahead of Starfleet's, and the film pretty much implies that nothing short of a red matter implosion would be able to permanently take out Nero's ship.
And again, it could have just been a standard planetary distress call whose specific details were irrelevant.
The U.S. Navy aren't the only ones who possess helicopters and supplies.
I don't recall anything stating that the cadet fleet was explicitly for evacuations.
Simple: Because the Narada is still fully functional when it arrives at Vulcan. If the Laurentian Sector fleet did indeed engage the Narada (which, again, there's zero evidence that this is the case), then if even one of those ships rammed Nero, the Narada would have been incapacitated just like it was when the Kelvin rammed it. But it wasn't.
I never implied that the Enterprise had to do anything suicidal. I stated that the Enterprise would have been destroyed just as easily as the other 7 ships if Nero hadn't stopped his attack once he realized what ship it was.
Huh? The only battles we see on screen are the Kelvin (which caught Nero unawares right after his trip through the black hole into the past), the cadet ships (of which we see the aftermath), and the Enterprise (which, as I stated above, would probably have been toast if not for Nero's curiousity). We also hear about the 47 Klingon ships, which we have no evidence to the contrary that that battle didn't happen other than your theory. So it certainly looks like the Narada can hold her own against whatever the 23rd century throws at it.
Actually the topic of this discussion was why the Enterprise was hiding underwater
You're welcome to believe that Nero lured the majority of Starfleet away to some sector by pretense if you want. We're going to agree to disagree here.
A
Amaris
Guest
It makes plenty of sense. Seriously, the whole scene is set up to explain why they couldn't just beam the device in, why they had to do things a particular way. It's all right there on the screen.
They could have submerged at night. It would have been simple enough.
Here is a simple explanation: the star system of Nibiru is in disputed territory, near the Klingon Empire. The planet's atmosphere is perfect to cloak the ship from Klingon scrutiny. But you can't simply have the ship hanging around to be spotted by the natives, but you can hide the vessel in the water. 'Nuff said.
I just did a quick revisit of the volcano scene, and Chekov actually states that magnetic fields are preventing them from using the transporters properly.
If so, then the disruption would likely interfere with sensors, as well, meaning that monitoring the volcano may have been more accurate to be closer to it. The ocean just concealed it.
I imagine that, with a ship as advanced as the Enterprise, they also could have submerged it some distance away and then move towards their target location. If the ship is strong enough to withstand the outskirts of a black hole, surely moving it through water would be a cinch.
A
Amaris
Guest
That's also possible.
It all depends on how we interpret the local problems with transporting. Would they be of the sort that makes proximity a good idea and thus rules out the orbital approach? Evidently not, as the proximal, submerged starship cannot use its transporters properly!
When the transporters do work, they do so from directly above the volcano. Getting directly above the volcano would appear to be easier if you start from space than if you start from the bottom of the sea!
Curiously, though, no part of Kirk's original plan actually calls for either transporters or the presence of a starship. Spock delivers his kool-aid via a shuttle; Kirk infiltrates the village on foot; McCoy improvises an overland escape, suggesting there's to be some sort of a pickup spot out of sight of the natives. It could all have been done with shuttles, then - so it's not even a question of choosing between putting the ship in the ocean or in orbit, as Kirk could put the ship in the next star system for all he cared!
Personally, I think the only way to make the underwater base of operations halfway rational is if Kirk was tasked with a relatively longterm covert survey of the planet, and only accidentally found out that he needed to rescue the natives from a volcano ASAP. Nothing about the volcano-plugging mission requires the Amazing Diving Starship, but a covert survey just might.
This already establishes the call as false: whenever Nero causes seismic trouble, that rules out genuine distress calls, because the very act of drilling supposedly jams communications.
Trek is about sailing in space anyway. Vulcan, like every other player, is an island; the arrival of ships is a major improvement in available assets, compared with what the island itself can mobilize. Nothing about this is in conflict with what's established elsewhere, as televised Trek time and again shows a visiting starship acting as the local health care system, the local food distribution system, the local transportation system etc.
a) the hero ship did triumph the next time around,
b) the hero ship withstood Nero's first volley anyway, so a suicide run was now an option and would definitely have given Pike his victory if it came to that,
c) Pike always also had the option of withdrawing, while Nero with his drill was immobile and helpless, and
d) we never saw any starship fire standard starship weapons at Nero's ship, only at his missiles; Pike could have had the presence of mind to attack Nero rather than stay on the defensive. And his ship had already made the first preparations for battle, and was doing more, while these visibly time-consuming steps obviously had not been taken by the cadet fleet.
Sure, Nero's ship was big, and his drill killed planets. But that should never be mistaken for Nero's ship being a powerful combatant, or his drill being a good weapon. Those things are never shown in the movie.
Timo Saloniemi
When the transporters do work, they do so from directly above the volcano. Getting directly above the volcano would appear to be easier if you start from space than if you start from the bottom of the sea!
Curiously, though, no part of Kirk's original plan actually calls for either transporters or the presence of a starship. Spock delivers his kool-aid via a shuttle; Kirk infiltrates the village on foot; McCoy improvises an overland escape, suggesting there's to be some sort of a pickup spot out of sight of the natives. It could all have been done with shuttles, then - so it's not even a question of choosing between putting the ship in the ocean or in orbit, as Kirk could put the ship in the next star system for all he cared!
Personally, I think the only way to make the underwater base of operations halfway rational is if Kirk was tasked with a relatively longterm covert survey of the planet, and only accidentally found out that he needed to rescue the natives from a volcano ASAP. Nothing about the volcano-plugging mission requires the Amazing Diving Starship, but a covert survey just might.
Umm, no. Chekov tells us what the distress call was about: seismic trouble. And Chekov tells what Starfleet is going to do about it: assess, then assist with evacuation.
This already establishes the call as false: whenever Nero causes seismic trouble, that rules out genuine distress calls, because the very act of drilling supposedly jams communications.
I'm so sorry - he invited his would-be friends for tea and crumpets and sharp instruments. It's just that I prefer my wording here, if that's all right with you...
We get two cases of Nero interrogating his captives. Robau helped him get his bearings, Pike sold him Earth's defenses. It's pretty natural to assume there was a third interrogation, too, one that gave him Vulcan's defenses. And possibly dozens of others, considering Nero had twenty-five years to burn, and showed no change in his methods in that time.
Ample what now? That doesn't make any sense!
Yes. And the explicit end result of that is that Nero loses fights to individual starships, even if surviving to fight another decade. The massive disadvantages of flying a civilian mining rig simply outweigh the advantages, as we see on screen. The only saving grace of how Nero was able to handle eight ships when he couldn't even handle one is that this part was not on screen.
They pretty much are the only ones who possess both - they'd definitely be the go-to organization if California suddenly shook to pieces. Everybody else there is a piecemeal operator; the USN has all this stuff nicely concentrated, organized and ready to launch on short notice, because of being a warfighting organization and all.
Trek is about sailing in space anyway. Vulcan, like every other player, is an island; the arrival of ships is a major improvement in available assets, compared with what the island itself can mobilize. Nothing about this is in conflict with what's established elsewhere, as televised Trek time and again shows a visiting starship acting as the local health care system, the local food distribution system, the local transportation system etc.
I very much doubt that, because
a) the hero ship did triumph the next time around,
b) the hero ship withstood Nero's first volley anyway, so a suicide run was now an option and would definitely have given Pike his victory if it came to that,
c) Pike always also had the option of withdrawing, while Nero with his drill was immobile and helpless, and
d) we never saw any starship fire standard starship weapons at Nero's ship, only at his missiles; Pike could have had the presence of mind to attack Nero rather than stay on the defensive. And his ship had already made the first preparations for battle, and was doing more, while these visibly time-consuming steps obviously had not been taken by the cadet fleet.
Sure, Nero's ship was big, and his drill killed planets. But that should never be mistaken for Nero's ship being a powerful combatant, or his drill being a good weapon. Those things are never shown in the movie.
Of the things we actually see, it's at best 2 defeats and one victory for Nero - he loses to the Kelvin, he loses to the Enterprise. That casts great doubt on the Klingon tall tale. Also, Pike and Robau had their shields up and the cadet fleet evidently had theirs down (since there was no Kirk to tell them to deviate from standard procedure); that already helps explain why Nero could destroy the eight ships but fail to destroy the single ones. Klingon ships wouldn't be shieldless (unless Kirk tampered with the program)...
Timo Saloniemi
Okay, then why didn't they fly the Enterprise directly over the volcano at night and beam the package in? The fact that the ship could beam Spock out at close range means the the ship at close range could beam the package in.
You can't say that definitively, and Nero did seem to be orchestrating events.
As regards the 2009 movie, Nero's attack on Vulcan (and later Earth) utterly depended on Starfleet being away. The choice we face: do we believe in coincidences, or do we believe in a plan?
The movie offers numerous events that might be part of Nero's plan to lure Starfleet away, and OTOH aren't plausible as mere coincidences in their own right. We know Nero had 25 years to plot, so it's IMHO quite appropriate to assume that we see his master plan unfolding, rather than some random lump of coincidences.
As regards using the starship to mess with the volcano, we face the very same question: is this a plan, or is this what substitutes for a plan when our heroes suddenly learn new and threatening facts about their situation and have to do things they never planned on doing? It seems the evidence for the latter is rather overwhelming:
- The heroes have the wrong tools for the job at hand (their shuttle can't work in the volcano, Scotty feels their ship will rust out in the sea)
- Kirk improvises the means of luring the natives to safety (McCoy doesn't know what he intended to do)
- McCoy improvises the means of subsequent getaway (Kirk doesn't know what he intended to do)
- Everything happens simultaneously, even though there should be no need to wait until the natives leave before deploying the volcano plug
On that latter point, it does sound as if Spock indeed waits until hearing from Kirk. Perhaps the heroes thought that plugging the volcano would risk triggering something that would destroy the village? They were wrong, though: the village went a lot sooner. Perhaps they thought the shuttle would be seen unless the villagers were made to look the other way? That, too, sounds highly unlikely, as the shuttle could have approached from the other side of the volcano (where Kirk's trickery would not have turned any native eyes away from the spectacle of the shuttle anyway).
All in all, though, it looks as if all the heroes are doing something completely different from what they thought they would be doing there. Which conceptually already explains why the pieces don't fit, and why it might actually have been a good idea to sink the ship under the original plan even when it makes no sense in the circumstances of the eventual "plan".
Timo Saloniemi
The movie offers numerous events that might be part of Nero's plan to lure Starfleet away, and OTOH aren't plausible as mere coincidences in their own right. We know Nero had 25 years to plot, so it's IMHO quite appropriate to assume that we see his master plan unfolding, rather than some random lump of coincidences.
As regards using the starship to mess with the volcano, we face the very same question: is this a plan, or is this what substitutes for a plan when our heroes suddenly learn new and threatening facts about their situation and have to do things they never planned on doing? It seems the evidence for the latter is rather overwhelming:
- The heroes have the wrong tools for the job at hand (their shuttle can't work in the volcano, Scotty feels their ship will rust out in the sea)
- Kirk improvises the means of luring the natives to safety (McCoy doesn't know what he intended to do)
- McCoy improvises the means of subsequent getaway (Kirk doesn't know what he intended to do)
- Everything happens simultaneously, even though there should be no need to wait until the natives leave before deploying the volcano plug
On that latter point, it does sound as if Spock indeed waits until hearing from Kirk. Perhaps the heroes thought that plugging the volcano would risk triggering something that would destroy the village? They were wrong, though: the village went a lot sooner. Perhaps they thought the shuttle would be seen unless the villagers were made to look the other way? That, too, sounds highly unlikely, as the shuttle could have approached from the other side of the volcano (where Kirk's trickery would not have turned any native eyes away from the spectacle of the shuttle anyway).
All in all, though, it looks as if all the heroes are doing something completely different from what they thought they would be doing there. Which conceptually already explains why the pieces don't fit, and why it might actually have been a good idea to sink the ship under the original plan even when it makes no sense in the circumstances of the eventual "plan".
Timo Saloniemi
IrishNero
Commodore
How do you think they clean the hull?
Water's fine for space dust, but you have to kill the space bacteria somehow.
How do you think they clean the hull?
Water's fine for space dust, but you have to kill the space bacteria somehow.
Or else, y'know, you might infect a Klingon Bird of Prey (or at least, they might think you did!)
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