Why did Decker have to be demoted to commander in TMP?

[Timo]

Plotwise, at this point Uhura already knows that Kirk is to be addressed as Captain, as per the earlier bridge scene where she had received such instructions from Starfleet, used the appropriate title, and prompted Sulu to use it as well. McCoy's choice of terminology we have to attribute to his affable curmudgeoness or whatever...

Shaw is simply pointing out the IRL advancement of the production. Of course in-universe the original Where No Man voiceover is not canon.

Yup. And censoring the log entry when the pilot was aired as part of the first season is poor proof of "changes" in interpretation of the backstory, the nature of the starship, etc. - the entry had to be censored because it indicated that this was the very first adventure of the series, while the intent at the eventual airing was instead to portray it as part of the episodic show.

The censoring does remove all traces of any intent to portray the ship as not-quite-military, though. It also sorta cuts the umbilical to Forbidden Planet and its mission of SAR, colonial oversight and contact with alien life...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[starburst]

For the same reason they gave Riker a fourth pip in BoBW2. (I have no idea what that reason is, mind.)

Riker was officially made Captain of the Enterprise with a field promotion, if they had not recovered Captain Picard or he had chose not to resume his old position (or had been unable to medically or mentally) its possible Riker would have been the Enterprise CO permanently.

Why he returned to being a Commander after is anyones guess, possible there would be no new ship available for some time so requested a grade reduction

2. Captain is an official rank, but it is also the title given to any commanding officer of a ship in the military. In the navy a ships skipper may only be a commander rank wise but he is referred to as captain when commanding the ship.

So it's not the rank but the command that determines a person's authority. Even if Decker remained a captain in rank he was no longer captain of the Enterprise. While Kirk despite being an Admiral could be referred to captain, in reference to his position of commanding the ship.

Star Trek has been woefully inconsistent where naval tradition is concerned, as the Dominion War is the only example in which the title of captain was used irrespective of rank.

If I remember correctly they also used the convention when Harry Kim had command of an alien ship in Voyager (The Nightingale) and in Star Trek 2009 with both Spock and Kirk when they were in effect 'Captain'.

Dax had official command, if not rank, of Defiant during those episodes so was addressed as Captain, it would not have been appropriate to call Spock, Scotty or Sulu Captain during the TOS run while Kirk was having fun down on the planet of the week as they had simply 'taken the conn' as it were.

 

[Timo]

Also, Kirk wears the sleeve braid of Commander when commanding the ship in the second pilot episode, and is nevertheless addressed as Captain.

(Pike, commanding a ship with half the crew, apparently wears Lieutenant stripes... Quite plausible if most Starfleet vessels are the size of the Kelvin and if the skippers of the midget Constitutions only get the prestigious O-6 rank because they do this exciting exploration stuff at the far frontier.)

Why he returned to being a Commander after is anyones guess, possible there would be no new ship available for some time so requested a grade reduction

Might be the exact opposite just as well. Riker at that point had turned down several opportunities to command ships of his own. Evidently he found being Picard's XO more to his liking (father issues as per "Icarus Factor", perhaps?). After having saved Earth, he was in a position to ask for a reward, and on top of his list might have been "I wanna stay with Daddy Picard, wanna wanna!". And he would get his wish, with the demotion thrown in either out of spite or because Riker specifically asked for that, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[darkthunder]

Dax had official command, if not rank, of Defiant during those episodes so was addressed as Captain, it would not have been appropriate to call Spock, Scotty or Sulu Captain during the TOS run while Kirk was having fun down on the planet of the week as they had simply 'taken the conn' as it were.

Dax was a Lt Commander for the duration of the Dominion War (until Jadzia's death), and was still a Lt Commander while commanding the Defiant (but referred to, as Captain).

Spock wasn't made Captain until the interrim between TMP and Wrath of Khan. Scotty was promoted to Captain (of Engineering) in Trek III. Sulu was promoted to Captain of the Excelsior in the interrim between V and VI.

So for most of the TOS "movies", there were at least 2 Captains (by rank) aboard the Enterprise.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

If it's the Asian comment i said the shady ones which clearly offer more than massages. I'm not saying all Asian massage parlors are fronts for sex businesses. There are some very nicely run ones that are legit.
But let's not kid ourselves that many are not just massage and you don't have to be on the vice squad to pick out the sex house ones with a high degree of accuracy.

[sarcasm]I'm glad you're here to tell us these things.[/sarcasm]

--Sran

Thanks Han.

BTW whenever someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The problem here is that the V.O. was cut from the televised version, so it cannot be considered official, thus anything implied in that piece can be dismissed. Even Shatner's actual title delivery does not push the Enterprise's mission away from Starfleet as militaristic in structure & presentation. Additionally, if Roddenberry's revisionist lie was always true, as TOS moved from one season to another, why did he fail to curb all traces of it in season 2 & 3 episodes?

Shaw is simply pointing out the IRL advancement of the production. Of course in-universe the original Where No Man voiceover is not canon.

It is still irrelevant when what went before the cameras in that pilot--and every episode filmed afterward--does not support Roddenberry's revisionist nonsense. Add the V.O. and its still the same military structured TOS.

 

[Ithekro]

For Riker, I would guess the paperwork for his field promotion by Admiral Hansen didn't get sent to Starfleet Command prior to the Admiral's death.

 

[J.T.B.]

Star Trek has been woefully inconsistent where naval tradition is concerned, as the Dominion War is the only example in which the title of captain was used irrespective of rank.

Commander Spock was called captain in "The Tholian Web," too.

And this isn't all that far from Kirk's first log entry from WNMHGB...

Enterprise Log, Captain James Kirk commanding.

We are leaving that vast cloud of stars and planets which we call our galaxy. Behind us, Earth, Mars, Venus... even our Sun, are specks of dust. A question... what is out there in the black void beyond?

Until now our mission has been that of space law regulation, contact with Earth colonies and investigation of alien life. But now, a new task... a probe out into where no man has gone before.​

So no, the Enterprise wasn't originally intended as a front line military vessel... I'm sure that originally it was thought that some other military branch existed for that. Plus, the Enterprise was one of the most thoughtfully designed ships in Science Fiction... but the one thing the original models were missing was weapons. Originally space battles weren't meant as the focus of the show.

It wasn't the focus of the show, that's for sure. But Kirk's description there (except for the alien life) sounds very much like what many Royal Navy cruisers were doing between 1815 and 1914. It's not inconsistent with a military organization's mission. A Victorian RN officer could go from leading landing parties from a river gunboat in Africa one month to walking the quarterdeck of a gleaming Mediterranean battleship the next.

There are materials such as the writer's guide that said the Enterprise type of starship/cruiser is the biggest available to Starfleet. So maybe a front-line vessel, but not on strictly front-line duties. Or, since a lot of very serious threats have turned up "out of the black," maybe frontier patrol is as front-line as the Federation gets.

Rank in Trek seems to be easily altered, either temporarily or permanently. Captain is more of a position than a rank - Spock and Scotty were technically captains in the latter films, yet served as science officer and engineer. So Admiral Kirk was playing captain and Captain Decker was playing science officer.

Not sure I follow. Wouldn't Capt Spock and Capt Scott in the movies be further examples of why it would be unnecessary to give Decker the rank reduction?

Also, Kirk wears the sleeve braid of Commander when commanding the ship in the second pilot episode, and is nevertheless addressed as Captain.

Which doesn't mean much as the first season and especially the pilot rank insignia system was pretty muddled. Kirk's rank was always intended to be captain.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Somebody mentioned the Riker thing after BOBW earlier in the thread, and I think that's probably the real reason. Executives at movie studios think viewers are morons, and that we'd all be very confused if we saw two characters wearing Captain's pips, or one character being refered to as the Captain of the vessel, but another one actually being the overall commander of the mission (and being allowed to sit in the big chair.

I agree wholeheartedly with your feelings about the execs. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of morons out there, but I think most people who watch ST would figure out pretty easily that even though there may be two people with the rank "captain" that only one is in official command of the ship. It's not like having two people with the rank of captain on a ship creates a command paradox or something.

Geroge Lucas obviously felt the same way when he hacked apart the Bespin escape scene to show Darth Vader actually taking his shuttle to his Star Destroyer in ESB.

In the unaltered version a pissed off Vader basically barks the command to bring his shuttle......Then we see several minutes of the Millennium Falcon heading back to Cloud City to rescue Luke and having to escape from some TIE Fighters and by the time it escapes the planet Vader is waiting on his Star Destroyer to capture them.

I'd always thought it'd been pretty obvious that Vader boarded his shuttle and, during the time the Falcon was flying back to save Luke and fleeing from the TIES, he arrived on his ship just ahead of the Falcon and was ready and waiting.

But apparently Lucas thought we had been sitting around scratching our thick monkey craniums for 17 years going "Duh....Vader asks for his shuttle, but the next time we see him he's on his ship.....how'd that happen.....we never actually saw him in the shuttle, did he use magic?" So George made sure to add in shots of the shuttle specifically going to the ship and Vader disembarking to make sure we CLEARLY understood how it happened.....Thank God.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

... decker be doubly pissed at Kirk that he lost his command and rank and could have whipped his penis out in front of of Kirk.

His Decker Unit.

I think the scriptwriters may have a little fun at Ilea calling everyone "Their name" unit and cracked some jokes.

I'm positive though that, in their wildest dreams, they never would have thought how fitting that name would come to describe Decker, based on Collins' RW actions, roughly 35 years later........

 

[EnriqueH]

I'm not sure if I accidentally skipped reading a sentence these last 3 pages, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Kirk actually refers to himself as "Captain" earlier in TMP, when he and Rand beam up McCoy.

"Starfleet, this is Captain Kirk. Beam that officer up now!"

Not mentioned, because it was never said. I just checked my copy of the Director's Cut on TMP, that line is never spoken.

Dialogue:

Uhura: Captain. Starfleet reports our last six crew members are ready to beam up, but one of them is refusing to step into the transporter.
Kirk: Oh? I'll see to it that he beams up.

* cut to transporter room*

No dialogue is spoken during the transport. After beam up, the dialogue goes:

Kirk: Well, for a man who swore he'd never return to Starfleet.
Bones: Just a moment, Captain, sir.

Two mentions of him being 'Captain' in that dialogue, but that could just as easily be Captain (by position), and not necessarily demoted to Captain (by rank).

Hmmm, check the VHS special edition copy, the expanded version.

I'm almost positive Kirk says, "This is Captain Kirk."

 

[darkthunder]

I don't own a VHS player, nor do I have a copy of the VHS special edition. The DVD Director's Cut did not have any mention of his rank as Captain.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^No, it doesn't. However, other characters addressed him as captain. One would think he'd have corrected them if their use of the rank were inappropriate.

--Sran

 

[darkthunder]

^No, it doesn't. However, other characters addressed him as captain. One would think he'd have corrected them if their use of the rank were inappropriate.

--Sran

He held the position of Captain. We know that for certain. If he was self-demoted to the rank of Captain, gets a bit more murky.

 

[EnriqueH]

I could've SWORN that he referred to himself as Captain Kirk. Right around when he says to Rand, "That has a familiar ring to it."

When I get home, I'm going to have to check my VHS copy.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

^No, it doesn't. However, other characters addressed him as captain. One would think he'd have corrected them if their use of the rank were inappropriate.

--Sran

He held the position of Captain. We know that for certain. If he was self-demoted to the rank of Captain, gets a bit more murky.

Well it was always my impression he was Admrial Kirk from TMP until was demoted as a reward at the end of TVH and that he wasn't demoted and repromoted. Yes people called him captain in TMP but again a commander of a ship is usually addressed as captain regardless of their rank. Although Admrials don't usually command a single ship.

One thing is clear and that is they never have a specific moment where he is officially reduced to captain in rank if that was the case. So in lieu of a solid scene that puts it beyond I'll just assume he was always an Admrial and the people who called him captain were doing so because of his command of the enterprise.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

He held the position of Captain. We know that for certain. If he was self-demoted to the rank of Captain, gets a bit more murky.

Not really. He was wearing captain's braids. If his rank hadn't changed, it stands to reason he'd have continued wearing his admiral's uniform. For comparison, Decker switched to commander's braids after Kirk took command.

--Sran

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I could've SWORN that he referred to himself as Captain Kirk. Right around when he says to Rand, "That has a familiar ring to it."

When I get home, I'm going to have to check my VHS copy.

He does say that in the VHS, but the line was cut from the DE; I own both copies.

--Sran

 

[Maurice]

re military: let's also not forget that Roddenberry was a cop, and a police force is a paramilitary organization, which likely also influenced some of his thinking.

 

[Therin of Andor]

He does say that in the VHS, but the line was cut from the DE; I own both copies.

The Special Longer Version on VHS, not the theatrical (which got a home video release before the SLV, and a widescreen release after), nor the DE.