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Why did Decker have to be demoted to commander in TMP?

All fair points except how could decker be sure it was only a temporary demotion. He didn't seem to trust Kirk and for all he knew he might have believed Kirk was full of shit with this temporary stuff and he'd find a way to keep him demoted.

By and large, demotions are punitive. What had Decker done to warrant any disciplinary action being taken against him? Although Decker may not have been happy about Kirk swooping in and taking the Enterprise away from him, he had no reason to think his demotion was permanent.

Decker knew that Kirk wanted the Enterprise back. He just didn't anticipate Kirk using the V'Ger threat as his excuse to push him aside.

--Sran

Yeah but even though it was for any punitive reasons (Apparently Decker didn't mimic Collins' real life actions) think it about it from Decker's POV.

He gets command of the Enterprise, with Kirk's endorsement. But the ship is laid up for two years undergoing a complete refit. So for most or all of his time as the CO he's been more like a construction foreman than a captain of a functioning ship.

So now he's about to actually take command and take his ship into action immediately and that opportunity is taken away from him just like that......Since the Enterprise was a totally new ship he felt Kirk had no claim on her in the first place, despite his past command because it had been Decker who had put his efforts into refitting her, not Kirk.

That is bad enough but then being told you're being demoted on top of it? So it's temporary but Decker obviously worked hard and sacrificed a lot to earn the rank of captain and now he has to give it up for no real reason, because he's Kirk's subordinate now regardless of his rank.

Yeah it's only temporary and even if he believed 100% that he'd be a captain again and the CO of the Enterprise after this V'ger issue was over and that Kirk wasn't going to pull some other trick to keep the Enterprise, it still has gotta hurt like hell and feel like it's punitive no matter what the official record reflects.
 
Yes, it's very questionable that commissioned rank conferred by the highest authority could be revoked without some kind of legal proceeding.

Correct. And even a flag officer like Kirk has people to whom he answers (Nogura, Morrow, etc.). It's unlikely he had the authority to demote Decker himself; otherwise, why ask Nogura for permission to command the Enterprise in the first place?

Granted, Kirk took command of the Enterprise back from Spock in TWOK, but their relationship was much different than the dynamic between Kirk and Decker (who may have been friends at one point, though their relationship for much of TMP was strained).

But the whole thing has more to do with the movie audience's expectations and perceptions that anything that makes sense in-universe. Kirk could command the mission as an admiral with Captain Decker under him, as seen in TWOK. And if for some reason Kirk had to be reduced to captain, he would still outrank Captain Decker by seniority, so there would still be no reason to reduce Decker to commander.

I agree with this. It seems like the producers were taking the brand name approach; they wanted Captain Kirk in command because that's who most people think of when the character is mentioned, not the middle-aged flag officer we saw for much of the films.

--Sran
 
Probably done to keep from confusing the audience, many of which wouldn't have any understanding of military procedure.

And since Starfleet claims not to be a military organization, who knows what their orders of command are.

Yeah...not to hijack the thread but if you believe that "Starfleet wasn't meant to be a military organization" crap Roddenberry spouted off after TMP, then you might as well believe all those shady looking Asian "massage" parlors just give massages.

You cannot have a show where starfleet, from the very first episode of TOS, is structured almost exactly like the United States Navy, uses countless military organizational components, terminology and many other elements and then say "This was NEVER meant to be military in nature."

Just one example: the name USS Enterprise. USS IRL stands for United States Ship and is used by the Navy as a prefix on all its commissioned warships. I know in ST is stands for United Star Ship, but the show could have used other prefixes like United Federation Ship, Federation Exploration Ship, Federation Starfleet Craft.......and many others that wouldn't have been USS and a direct link to the Navy, which last I checked is very much a military organization.

As for the name. If Roddenberry was so steadfast that starfleet's mission was exploration and discovery and not military in nature he could have called the ship many names: Explorer, Voyager, Discovery, Peacekeeper, Reliant, Freedom, etc. that denoted a peaceful nature. Hell he could have called it the Shamrock......None of these names had any well known to the US Navy.

As fate would have it he chose the name "Enterprise" why? Well in the 25 years preceding the start of ST there had been two very famous vessels named Enterprise. Both were aircraft carriers and were in the US Navy.

The first carrier Enterprise CV-6 was commissioned a few years before WWII began. Should have been at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th, but got delayed by a storm and of the 6 aircraft carriers that fought in the Pacific in the first year of the war only she and the USS Saratoga were still afloat at the end of 1942. Enterprise however fought practically non stop in 1942 and several times was the only operational carrier standing between the Japanese Navy and some major victory. While Saratoga had an unfortunate habit of being torpedoed by submarines just before major battles (happened twice) which caused her to miss several engagements before joining the fray in late 1942.

Enterprise then went on to have the most decorated career of any WARSHIP in US Navy history. And by all rights should have been preserved as a memorial after WWII and her scrapping is a national disgrace. Like if they built a strip mall on Gettysburg.

The second carrier Enterprise CVN-65 was commissioned in 1961 and at the time of ST's premier was the largest, longest and most powerful WARSHIP in the world. She was also the first nuclear powered carrier......nuclear isn't exactly a word that brings to mind peaceful intentions. Oh and she was involved heavily in providing air support in the Vietnam WAR during much of the show's run.

So Roddenberry named the starship Enterprise after the most decorated WARSHIP in US history which fought in the largest war ever and was only 20 years in the past when ST premiered. As well as the most powerful WARSHIP afloat at the time, which was also actively involved in combat operations when ST premiered.

That is but one small example but really you cannot be more obvious about making a strong military connection to the show by calling the main setting the USS Enterprise. He literally could not have picked a name that had a more militaristic connection to it because of the prefix being a real life Navy one and the fame of the name "Enterprise" in US Navy history.

This "Starfleet was never meant to be a military organization" is a bunch of crap Roddenberry started pushing hard, and other defenders of him continued, after he got kicked out of the loop after TMP and and he wanted to make it look like Paramount with Meyer and Bennett had ruined his "vision" of Star Trek.

Yeah starfleet had a NASA like element to it of exploration no doubt. But you know what? The US Military often participates in exploration and scientific missions, sometimes it's to help create stronger weapons...but other times there is no combat element involved in their participation. But noone would call the Navy, Army and Air Force anything other than military organizations first and foremost.

All Meyer and Bennett did was make the military element more prominent and consistent with things like matching uniforms and hallways that resembled those found on naval warships. They didn't "ruin" anything of Gene's "vision"...because this non-military utopian society "vision" Roddenberry was so fond of was just his anger at Paramount and trying to garner sympathy from ST fans because they were "destroying" everything he worked so hard to create.......Yet didn't really seem to start heavily talking about until 1979 when he was kicked out of the decision making loop.

I could write a 300 page book on the ways starfleet is most certainly a military organization above all based on it's design from the very start. This "It's a primary peaceful, scientific, discovery" organization is a bunch of utter nonsense and wasn't a man's "vision" but his way at trying to get back at those who he felt screwed over by.
 
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As for the plot idea of Enterprise being the only starship in interception range, from Earth, that can make sense. There aren't all that many starships, and most are suppose to be on the frontiers. If most are still like Enterprise was prior to her refit, they cruise at warp 6 and have a best recommended speed of warp 8.

V'Ger is cruising in from Klingon Space at about warp 7. Most starships would be hard pressed to intercept that. Other ships might be in the region, but none would be starships in the old terms. A fast destroyer could probably have intercepted V'Ger, but since Starfleet has a clear record of the cloud defeating three Klingon battlecruisers, they might not think a destroyer would be enough. A starship is needed. Only one is in range, and that is only because it is where the cloud is heading.
 
Yeah...not to hijack the thread but if you believe that "Starfleet wasn't meant to be a military organization" crap Roddenberry spouted off after TMP, then you might as well believe all those shady looking Asian "massage" parlors just give massages.

Not cool, dude.

--Sran

What's not cool about it? It's the truth. Roddenberry created ST and that can never be taken away from him. But his attempts to retcon ST into this utopian universe and that Starfleet was never meant to be military in his response to being dropped after TMP is the total truth.

You would have to either be extremely uninformed or totally loyal to roddenberry's every word to believe this "non militaristic" BS that got much louder after 1979. When even the most casual inspection of the show reveals many obvious connections to the military, mainly the US Navy.

I'm sure it sucked like hell when he lost any power after TMP and if wanted to go off, that's fine with me. But don't basically make up stuff to make you look pure and the ones in charge now as destroyers of this pure vision you had.

I could continue. But another time another thread.

If it's the Asian comment i said the shady ones which clearly offer more than massages. I'm not saying all Asian massage parlors are fronts for sex businesses. There are some very nicely run ones that are legit.
But let's not kid ourselves that many are not just massage and you don't have to be on the vice squad to pick out the sex house ones with a high degree of accuracy.

If the comparison itself was offensive. Maybe I should have said you might as well believe the world is flat if you believe Starfleet wasn't designed as a military organization from the start.
 
Probably done to keep from confusing the audience, many of which wouldn't have any understanding of military procedure.
This.

(I haven't read the entire thread....so if I echo anyone's thoughts, it is accidental, and offered with apologies. :). )

The average non-military movie goer back in '79 would not truly understand that you can have more than one Captain by grade on a ship, but only one Captain by position.

Much the same as in the King Kong movie with Jeff Bridges that a minigun ends up sounding like rat a tat a tat a tat, as opposed to the loud buzzing sound that is resultant from the minigun's high rate of fire. The average non-military movie goer would not have a way to understand that what was being shown was a weapon being fired....or if they did, they related back to the Old West Gatling guns, rather than a high tech minigun.
 
If it's the Asian comment i said the shady ones which clearly offer more than massages. I'm not saying all Asian massage parlors are fronts for sex businesses. There are some very nicely run ones that are legit.
But let's not kid ourselves that many are not just massage and you don't have to be on the vice squad to pick out the sex house ones with a high degree of accuracy.

[sarcasm]I'm glad you're here to tell us these things.[/sarcasm]

--Sran
 
Yeah...not to hijack the thread but if you believe that "Starfleet wasn't meant to be a military organization" crap Roddenberry spouted off after TMP, then you might as well believe all those shady looking Asian "massage" parlors just give massages.

You cannot have a show where starfleet, from the very first episode of TOS, is structured almost exactly like the United States Navy, uses countless military organizational components, terminology and many other elements and then say "This was NEVER meant to be military in nature."

Just one example: the name USS Enterprise. USS IRL stands for United States Ship and is used by the Navy as a prefix on all its commissioned warships. I know in ST is stands for United Star Ship, but the show could have used other prefixes like United Federation Ship, Federation Exploration Ship, Federation Starfleet Craft.......and many others that wouldn't have been USS and a direct link to the Navy, which last I checked is very much a military organization.

As for the name. If Roddenberry was so steadfast that starfleet's mission was exploration and discovery and not military in nature he could have called the ship many names: Explorer, Voyager, Discovery, Peacekeeper, Reliant, Freedom, etc. that denoted a peaceful nature. Hell he could have called it the Shamrock......None of these names had any well known to the US Navy.

As fate would have it he chose the name "Enterprise" why? Well in the 25 years preceding the start of ST there had been two very famous vessels named Enterprise. Both were aircraft carriers and were in the US Navy.

The first carrier Enterprise CV-6 was commissioned a few years before WWII began. Should have been at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th, but got delayed by a storm and of the 6 aircraft carriers that fought in the Pacific in the first year of the war only she and the USS Saratoga were still afloat at the end of 1942. Enterprise however fought practically non stop in 1942 and several times was the only operational carrier standing between the Japanese Navy and some major victory. While Saratoga had an unfortunate habit of being torpedoed by submarines just before major battles (happened twice) which caused her to miss several engagements before joining the fray in late 1942.

Enterprise then went on to have the most decorated career of any WARSHIP in US Navy history. And by all rights should have been preserved as a memorial after WWII and her scrapping is a national disgrace. Like if they built a strip mall on Gettysburg.

The second carrier Enterprise CVN-65 was commissioned in 1961 and at the time of ST's premier was the largest, longest and most powerful WARSHIP in the world. She was also the first nuclear powered carrier......nuclear isn't exactly a word that brings to mind peaceful intentions. Oh and she was involved heavily in providing air support in the Vietnam WAR during much of the show's run.

So Roddenberry named the starship Enterprise after the most decorated WARSHIP in US history which fought in the largest war ever and was only 20 years in the past when ST premiered. As well as the most powerful WARSHIP afloat at the time, which was also actively involved in combat operations when ST premiered.

That is but one small example but really you cannot be more obvious about making a strong military connection to the show by calling the main setting the USS Enterprise. He literally could not have picked a name that had a more militaristic connection to it because of the prefix being a real life Navy one and the fame of the name "Enterprise" in US Navy history.

This "Starfleet was never meant to be a military organization" is a bunch of crap Roddenberry started pushing hard, and other defenders of him continued, after he got kicked out of the loop after TMP and and he wanted to make it look like Paramount with Meyer and Bennett had ruined his "vision" of Star Trek.

Yeah starfleet had a NASA like element to it of exploration no doubt. But you know what? The US Military often participates in exploration and scientific missions, sometimes it's to help create stronger weapons...but other times there is no combat element involved in their participation. But noone would call the Navy, Army and Air Force anything other than military organizations first and foremost.

All Meyer and Bennett did was make the military element more prominent and consistent with things like matching uniforms and hallways that resembled those found on naval warships. They didn't "ruin" anything of Gene's "vision"...because this non-military utopian society "vision" Roddenberry was so fond of was just his anger at Paramount and trying to garner sympathy from ST fans because they were "destroying" everything he worked so hard to create.......Yet didn't really seem to start heavily talking about until 1979 when he was kicked out of the decision making loop.

I could write a 300 page book on the ways starfleet is most certainly a military organization above all based on it's design from the very start. This "It's a primary peaceful, scientific, discovery" organization is a bunch of utter nonsense and wasn't a man's "vision" but his way at trying to get back at those who he felt screwed over by.

Thank you for this on-point post. If there's one thing I find supremely annoying about Roddenberry (well, there's much to find annoying, but back to your post) is the very lefty, revisionist myth that Starfleet was some organization of peacenik scientist ideologues trying to Peace Corps their way through the galaxy, when the hard evidence--TOS--was a conscious opposite.

Of course, once TNG arrived, others jumped on Roddenberry's revisionist drivel, which has done much to convince younger generations that ST is some "soft" concept--essentially Mr. Wizard's World / Bill Nye / Greenpeace in space.
 
^What annoys me the most about what Roddenberry said is that I'm not even sure if he believed it, much less anyone else. He was angry that virtually all of his control over Star Trek had been taken away from him and wanted to stick to Bennett/Meyer/Nimoy/Shatner/Winter any way he could. His babbling about Starfleet not being a military organization was merely one example of the nonsense he spewed in the years following TMP's release.

In any case, count me among those who's always liked the more militaristic Trek that Meyer cultivated.

--Sran
 
What annoys me is how people forget (conveniently) the origins of Star Trek. Lets take a closer look at the facts before we start doing the political chest beating and finger pointing...

Is the Enterprise (and was it originally intended as) a military vessel in TOS?

Yes... sorta.

First, the Federation didn't exist at the beginning of Trek, that was a late first season addition (and I think avoided at the beginning because it sounded too much like Forbidden Planet). The Enterprise was part of the United Earth Space Probe Agency, which was more like today's Coast Guard than today's Navy.

Is the Coast Guard military? Here is what they say about themselves...
"The Coast Guard is an adaptable, responsive military force of maritime professionals whose broad legal authorities, capable assets, geographic diversity and expansive partnerships provide a persistent presence along our rivers, in the ports, littoral regions and on the high seas. Coast Guard presence and impact is local, regional, national and international. These attributes make the Coast Guard a unique instrument of maritime safety, security and environmental stewardship."
And this isn't all that far from Kirk's first log entry from WNMHGB...
Enterprise Log, Captain James Kirk commanding.

We are leaving that vast cloud of stars and planets which we call our galaxy. Behind us, Earth, Mars, Venus... even our Sun, are specks of dust. A question... what is out there in the black void beyond?

Until now our mission has been that of space law regulation, contact with Earth colonies and investigation of alien life. But now, a new task... a probe out into where no man has gone before.
So no, the Enterprise wasn't originally intended as a front line military vessel... I'm sure that originally it was thought that some other military branch existed for that. Plus, the Enterprise was one of the most thoughtfully designed ships in Science Fiction... but the one thing the original models were missing was weapons. Originally space battles weren't meant as the focus of the show.

All that changed over time, but originally this was how it was.

Even with the second series (AKA... Phase II), the Enterprise was given a single (visible) weapons placement... but with the success of Star Wars, that turned into (as I recall) 30 phaser turrets and two torpedo tubes on the TMP refit. So yeah, by TMP (which was all Roddenberry's) the Enterprise was a full on war vessel.

And no excuses... there are simply more stories that can be told with military conflict than with peaceful exploration. And the progression of TOS reflected that fact. But in the beginning (1964-1966) Star Trek was intended to be a star trek... and by the end of the first season started to become more of a star wars (long before Lucas' version). And again, Roddenberry was at the helm for most of that.
 
And this isn't all that far from Kirk's first log entry from WNMHGB...
Enterprise Log, Captain James Kirk commanding.

We are leaving that vast cloud of stars and planets which we call our galaxy. Behind us, Earth, Mars, Venus... even our Sun, are specks of dust. A question... what is out there in the black void beyond?

Until now our mission has been that of space law regulation, contact with Earth colonies and investigation of alien life. But now, a new task... a probe out into where no man has gone before.
The problem here is that the V.O. was cut from the televised version, so it cannot be considered official, thus anything implied in that piece can be dismissed. Even Shatner's actual title delivery does not push the Enterprise's mission away from Starfleet as militaristic in structure & presentation. Additionally, if Roddenberry's revisionist lie was always true, as TOS moved from one season to another, why did he fail to curb all traces of it in season 2 & 3 episodes?

He was not handcuffed by Desilu or NBC to keep the series that way, so what prevented him (if we are to believe his BS) from making it exactly what he claimed post TMP? Even the animated series retained that feel, but there was no urge to change that.
 
Rank in Trek seems to be easily altered, either temporarily or permanently. Captain is more of a position than a rank - Spock and Scotty were technically captains in the latter films, yet served as science officer and engineer. So Admiral Kirk was playing captain and Captain Decker was playing science officer.
 
Demoting Decker to Commander, on the grounds of "Only 1 Captain per ship" is ridiculous. If you consider the fact that by Star Trek VI, we had not one, not two, but THREE Captains aboard the Enterprise: Captain Kirk, Captain Spock and Captain Scott.

The majority of the rest of the main cast were Commanders. By Trek VI, it seems the writers completely forgot about lower ranks.
 
The problem here is that the V.O. was cut from the televised version, so it cannot be considered official, thus anything implied in that piece can be dismissed. Even Shatner's actual title delivery does not push the Enterprise's mission away from Starfleet as militaristic in structure & presentation. Additionally, if Roddenberry's revisionist lie was always true, as TOS moved from one season to another, why did he fail to curb all traces of it in season 2 & 3 episodes?
Shaw is simply pointing out the IRL advancement of the production. Of course in-universe the original Where No Man voiceover is not canon.
 
I'm not sure if I accidentally skipped reading a sentence these last 3 pages, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Kirk actually refers to himself as "Captain" earlier in TMP, when he and Rand beam up McCoy.

"Starfleet, this is Captain Kirk. Beam that officer up now!"
 
Somebody mentioned the Riker thing after BOBW earlier in the thread, and I think that's probably the real reason. Executives at movie studios think viewers are morons, and that we'd all be very confused if we saw two characters wearing Captain's pips, or one character being refered to as the Captain of the vessel, but another one actually being the overall commander of the mission (and being allowed to sit in the big chair).

During production of Phase II, someone (it might well have been Deforest Research, who used to vet the scripts for continuity/scientific accuracy) made mention of the unlikelihood that Kirk would sacrifice his rank to command the ship again on another five year mission, or even that he'd be allowed to, and they suggested that instead of him being an Admiral, they ought to have him bumped up to only a Commodore instead, because it had been firmly established in TOS that Commodores could command starships without having to lose their rank. Not a bad suggestion, although of course making Kirk an Admiral was a much more visable promotion...
 
I'm not sure if I accidentally skipped reading a sentence these last 3 pages, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Kirk actually refers to himself as "Captain" earlier in TMP, when he and Rand beam up McCoy.

"Starfleet, this is Captain Kirk. Beam that officer up now!"

Not mentioned, because it was never said. I just checked my copy of the Director's Cut on TMP, that line is never spoken.

Dialogue:

Uhura: Captain. Starfleet reports our last six crew members are ready to beam up, but one of them is refusing to step into the transporter.
Kirk: Oh? I'll see to it that he beams up.

* cut to transporter room*

No dialogue is spoken during the transport. After beam up, the dialogue goes:

Kirk: Well, for a man who swore he'd never return to Starfleet.
Bones: Just a moment, Captain, sir.

Two mentions of him being 'Captain' in that dialogue, but that could just as easily be Captain (by position), and not necessarily demoted to Captain (by rank).
 
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