They actually dated in the last episode, but were showing an interest in each other several episodes before then.
Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?
- Thread starter Lorthos
- Start date
The only given romantic interest that seemed between Seven and Chakotay before Endgame was her interest in his hologram substitute in "Human Error," though at the end of the ep. Chakotay bumped into her in a corrider and said maybe she should go to the mess hall with him to socialize "with the crew a little more." After that there was really nada of them showing attraction until "Endgame"; even in "Natural Law" with the two spending all that time on the planet there wasn't romantic interest shown during or by the end of that episode, well JR/ RB have said they were told not to perform that way.
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Do you remember when I was lamenting that Captain Janeway, learnt C/7's romance by the mouth of her older doppelhänger, Admiral Janeway and not from the 2 concerned ... or at least, one of the two, preferably Chakotay, not only because he was her First Officer (even if the romance between 2 people is usually a private matter, in that case - and seen Seven's emotional weakness after the removing of some of her Borg implants to gain back her Human emotions (deeply buried since her forced assimilation 18 years ago), in 7x18's Human Error-, it was a question of safety of Voyager and her crew) and simply because Kathryn was his dear friend (if you expect that your friend reveals some details about of her private life, you have to play the game too, ... if not, this is one way game and friendship, is not that, isn’t it? right!) & he perfectly knew the strong attachment she had to Seven to the point of having reproached her for quite and for a long time (s4 & s5)?
Well, yesterday evening, I fell by accident on a page on Trektoday wbebsite, dated from June 6, 2001 (source: https://www.trektoday.com/news/060601_03.shtml), which treated of deleted scenes, because yes, they were some and guess what, the topic was effectively addressed but the scene was deleted in the final cut and yet it was important! :-(
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Janeway & Janeway & Chakotay
A key scene that didn't make it into the finale episode is the dinner with Captain Janeway, her counterpart from the future, and Commander Chakotay. During the meal, Admiral Janeway takes the opportunity to ask Chakotay about his love-life.
The dinner starts with a little prologue, set earlier in the day, with Admiral Janeway bringing some food to her younger self in the Ready Room. "You're going to have to make some [time to eat]. You're too thin," chastises the Admiral. "It just hit me...I'm going to turn into my mother," Janeway replies.
The setting then changes to later that evening, with Chakotay and the two Janeways talking about their adventures with the Rotenians. When Captain Janeway gets up to get more tea for the Admiral, she leans over and asks Chakotay about his personal life. When Chakotay acts surprised, the Admiral says "There's no need to be coy with me, Chakotay. I know exactly what's going on."
Chakotay is obviously not keen to discuss this while his Captain is in the room. The stage directions indicate that he glances towards Captain Janeway, standing at the replicator. "Don't worry. She doesn't know yet," the Admiral says. "So...how are things with Seven?" Chakotay smiles. "Great." The script indicates that the Admiral is "warmed to see Chakotay at such a happy time in his life."
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So, if I understand well, Admiral Janeway reveals to Chakotay that she knows about him & Seven, while indicating that her young doppelhänger is not yet aware and what does he do?! And instead of wondering if it is not time to finally inform his friend without much delay, he decides to say/do nothing!
In fact, if the Captain had not been informed by the Admiral about C/7 were to be married in a very near future (and so they are already dating), she would have been in the dark ... until both decided to come and ask her to celebrate their marriage, several months after the return on Earth,… in the case where the relationship would have developed to reach this stage in the present, of course! ;-).
You will agree that this is a rather disconcerting and even /awkward situation! :-(
In the same time, and sorry J/Cers to drive the knife into (or rubbing salt in) the wound but IF the scene had not been cut, would you still hope or dream for J/C forming a couple on Earth, shortly after the return? For me, this scene is just a confirmation that Chakotay definitively moved on and that he is happy with the current situation (not necessary to be with Seven but at least, the fact of not being alone anymore, no matter what will happen next... what confirms too what I thought since the beginning, this man needs a woman at his side, no matter who, even if I note that he must really be in love with Seska and Janeway, that's why he felt helpless when both turned their backsl). As for Janeway, the Capitain, Chakotay’s love life seems to be the least of her worries and consequently; her lack of reaction a few time after to have been informed of his romance with Seven and/or at the very end of the episode, isn't a surprise! :-)
On the other hand, Janeway would have all the rights to feel pained or disappointed in relation of the lack of honesty (C/7 lied of ommission, regardless their reasons) from a man she considered until there as a dear friend & a yound woman she considers as her protégée (maybe even a surrogate daughter), towards her! -> I mean, both knew that Adm. Janeway, someone almost unknown for them, knew about their romance but, neither of the 2 lovebirds thought that it would be fair to inform the Captain (a woman they knew quite intimately as their superior & friend since respectively 7 and 4 years and who gave them a total freedom on the ship, a complete trust and an unwavering support, just expecting in return, honesty, loyalty and friendship, moral values which are so important for her) before she hears the rumor/news from someone else like Tuvok, the Doctor or worst, a lambda crewman?!
You know what, I feel, perhaps wrongly, that at this stage, neither of Chakotay or Seven feels indebted, where perhaps their rather awkward attitude (they feel something new for Seven / great for Chakotay and the rest does not matter...)
Well, yesterday evening, I fell by accident on a page on Trektoday wbebsite, dated from June 6, 2001 (source: https://www.trektoday.com/news/060601_03.shtml), which treated of deleted scenes, because yes, they were some and guess what, the topic was effectively addressed but the scene was deleted in the final cut and yet it was important! :-(
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Janeway & Janeway & Chakotay
A key scene that didn't make it into the finale episode is the dinner with Captain Janeway, her counterpart from the future, and Commander Chakotay. During the meal, Admiral Janeway takes the opportunity to ask Chakotay about his love-life.
The dinner starts with a little prologue, set earlier in the day, with Admiral Janeway bringing some food to her younger self in the Ready Room. "You're going to have to make some [time to eat]. You're too thin," chastises the Admiral. "It just hit me...I'm going to turn into my mother," Janeway replies.
The setting then changes to later that evening, with Chakotay and the two Janeways talking about their adventures with the Rotenians. When Captain Janeway gets up to get more tea for the Admiral, she leans over and asks Chakotay about his personal life. When Chakotay acts surprised, the Admiral says "There's no need to be coy with me, Chakotay. I know exactly what's going on."
Chakotay is obviously not keen to discuss this while his Captain is in the room. The stage directions indicate that he glances towards Captain Janeway, standing at the replicator. "Don't worry. She doesn't know yet," the Admiral says. "So...how are things with Seven?" Chakotay smiles. "Great." The script indicates that the Admiral is "warmed to see Chakotay at such a happy time in his life."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, if I understand well, Admiral Janeway reveals to Chakotay that she knows about him & Seven, while indicating that her young doppelhänger is not yet aware and what does he do?! And instead of wondering if it is not time to finally inform his friend without much delay, he decides to say/do nothing!
In fact, if the Captain had not been informed by the Admiral about C/7 were to be married in a very near future (and so they are already dating), she would have been in the dark ... until both decided to come and ask her to celebrate their marriage, several months after the return on Earth,… in the case where the relationship would have developed to reach this stage in the present, of course! ;-).
You will agree that this is a rather disconcerting and even /awkward situation! :-(
In the same time, and sorry J/Cers to drive the knife into (or rubbing salt in) the wound but IF the scene had not been cut, would you still hope or dream for J/C forming a couple on Earth, shortly after the return? For me, this scene is just a confirmation that Chakotay definitively moved on and that he is happy with the current situation (not necessary to be with Seven but at least, the fact of not being alone anymore, no matter what will happen next... what confirms too what I thought since the beginning, this man needs a woman at his side, no matter who, even if I note that he must really be in love with Seska and Janeway, that's why he felt helpless when both turned their backsl). As for Janeway, the Capitain, Chakotay’s love life seems to be the least of her worries and consequently; her lack of reaction a few time after to have been informed of his romance with Seven and/or at the very end of the episode, isn't a surprise! :-)
On the other hand, Janeway would have all the rights to feel pained or disappointed in relation of the lack of honesty (C/7 lied of ommission, regardless their reasons) from a man she considered until there as a dear friend & a yound woman she considers as her protégée (maybe even a surrogate daughter), towards her! -> I mean, both knew that Adm. Janeway, someone almost unknown for them, knew about their romance but, neither of the 2 lovebirds thought that it would be fair to inform the Captain (a woman they knew quite intimately as their superior & friend since respectively 7 and 4 years and who gave them a total freedom on the ship, a complete trust and an unwavering support, just expecting in return, honesty, loyalty and friendship, moral values which are so important for her) before she hears the rumor/news from someone else like Tuvok, the Doctor or worst, a lambda crewman?!
You know what, I feel, perhaps wrongly, that at this stage, neither of Chakotay or Seven feels indebted, where perhaps their rather awkward attitude (they feel something new for Seven / great for Chakotay and the rest does not matter...)
Objections to the Chakotay/Seven relationship feel, to me, like yet another example of Voyager fans finding reasons to take the series to task for things that it didn't do.
Yes, in a perfect world, we would've seen more justification for Chakotay and Seven, but Voyager is by far from the only Trek series to introduce and/or terminate a romantic relationship with little explanation or justification (hello, Kirk/Carol and Troi/Worf), and regardless of whether or not you feel that the two characters were "right" for each other, we still saw the relationship happen, and it was pivotal in the ship and crew getting home because it was the catalyst for Admiral Janeway making the decisions she made.
Yes, in a perfect world, we would've seen more justification for Chakotay and Seven, but Voyager is by far from the only Trek series to introduce and/or terminate a romantic relationship with little explanation or justification (hello, Kirk/Carol and Troi/Worf), and regardless of whether or not you feel that the two characters were "right" for each other, we still saw the relationship happen, and it was pivotal in the ship and crew getting home because it was the catalyst for Admiral Janeway making the decisions she made.
I also have to add that we saw them after their first (or was it second) date. It's not like they were already deep into a relationship. They were just starting out.
I don't think Seven ever had that procedure that would allow her to feel more emotion, as the unexpected arrival of Admiral Janeway caused Seven to cancel it, as she now had other things to do at that time.
Some things that happen (Seven/Chakotay) in the Delta Quadrant should stay in the Delta Quadrant! ;-)
About the why, maybe producers finally noticed the similarity between Chakotay’s face tattoo and Seven’s Borg implant above her eyebrow and they wondered, "Hey, why didn’t we notice this before?! Let’s pair the two!”. :-O
And you were right, Sophie74656 to remind that the relationship was still at the very beginning (and besides, we saw them very little together, in intimate situations, in part 2, as if producers/writers were not too keen to dwell on it ...
About the why, maybe producers finally noticed the similarity between Chakotay’s face tattoo and Seven’s Borg implant above her eyebrow and they wondered, "Hey, why didn’t we notice this before?! Let’s pair the two!”. :-O
And you were right, Sophie74656 to remind that the relationship was still at the very beginning (and besides, we saw them very little together, in intimate situations, in part 2, as if producers/writers were not too keen to dwell on it ...
I think the biggest issue with the relationship is the lack of chemistry between the actors. Whether they were told to play that way or it was something that naturally happened betweent the two, I think that was my biggest issue. In Endgame we saw them after their first date. Prior to that we saw Seven show a desire to explore that part of her humanity as far back as Someone to Watch Over Me. Then later we saw her create the hologram with Chakotay. I'm not sure if she chose him because she had an attraction to him or if he was a familiar face and then she developed feelings for him after spending time in the holodeck with the character. As for them choosing each other, my thoughts on this (and my relationship experiences can be counted on one hand with several fingers chopped off) is that they were the logical choice to pair up. They already knew each other and were friendly. From Chakotay's point of view, Janeway turned him down and B'Elanna was married, so who else does that leave?
I think it would have been easier for most people to accept if we saw more buildup like we did with Tom and B'elanna. But even without pre date flirtation it can still work. In real life don't people go on dates with people they hardly know and have never interacted with before? (honestly I don't know lol )
I think it would have been easier for most people to accept if we saw more buildup like we did with Tom and B'elanna. But even without pre date flirtation it can still work. In real life don't people go on dates with people they hardly know and have never interacted with before? (honestly I don't know lol )
Indeed it was odd that the writers through the Chakotay/Seven love storyline into the mix at the very end.
Sad scene when Admiral Janeway visited his graveside and clearly saddened about his demise said "I know it wasn't easy living all these years without her Chakotay - Seven. BUT when I'm through... Things might be better for all of us. Trust me"
Heart melting final words to Commander Chakotay.
Sad scene when Admiral Janeway visited his graveside and clearly saddened about his demise said "I know it wasn't easy living all these years without her Chakotay - Seven. BUT when I'm through... Things might be better for all of us. Trust me"
Heart melting final words to Commander Chakotay.
Two reasons....
See them?
LOL!
You beat me to it... I only see a Photobucket promo, I miss the days when they allowed 3rd party linking for free.
That was funny!
Mareika or Refuge, could you transcript the dialog or just repeat what she said about this part? I can't watch the video. :-( Thank you in advance,
I like the difference between :" I had to kiss Robert Beltran" as if it was a test to overcome and "when I kissed Robert Beltran for the needs of the scene", which is still more neutral, regardless of whether it was nice and tactful if the experience was displeasant.
That being said, even if Chakotay/Seven seemed "logic"*, I would argue about the (lack of) motivation manifested by both actors. It was grossly evident. Indeed, Robert Beltran has showed much more enthusiasm, by the past, in Chakotay's role, when he courtshiped/flirted with hJaneway or Kellin, right?!
So what, would he lost his touch?! ;-) I think that it was much more a discomfort from the actor's part, who, even if he finally got the most pleasant part of storylines in the finale, wasn't necessary satisfied with it (his scenes with Jeri Ryan are stopgap).
As for Jeri Ryan, I'd say that her acting shyness was understable in the measure where her character, Seven, experienced courtship for the first time and was still hesitant on what to do and reactions to get. In short, she was still not very comfortable with this new parameter/situation. But I feel too that she wasn't very comfortable with this storyline, either.
Let's be honest, the actress, Jeri Ryan knew showing much more passion in her scenes with Mulgrew, (Janeway), Picardo (the Doctor), Dawson (Torres) and even, Krige (The Borg queen), by the past so, there is no doubt about her capacity to show her professional involvement in Seven's role.
Fortunaly, the recalcitrant to Chakotay/Janeway like me, did not have much to suffer of their scenes as they were a few and brief, as if producers/writers, aware that this unexpected romance would be controversial, did not want to overstate it.
* And about the charms of the logic, allow me to quote Oscar Wilde, Leo Tolstoï to reveal my reasoning.
"La logique est le dernier refuge des gens sans imagination" (“To note the curious hard logic of passion, and the emotional colored life of the intellect") - Oscar Wilde (The picture of Dorian Gray)
"En matière de sentiment, le manque de logique est la meilleure preuve de la sincérité". ("In terms of feeling, the lack of logic is the best proof of the sincerity" / "Tout raisonnement sur l'amour, le détruit" (All reasoning about love, destroys it) - Leo Tolstoy
Sorry, Tuvok and all your Vulcan's congeners! ;-)
NB: IF Kate Mulgrew, who has weighed heavily during the development of Endgame's screenplay, has decided to finally yield to the J/C mania, even indirectly by leaving the door open to a J/C's romance once Voyager back on Earth, C/7 would have been an pleaant or irritating parenthesis!
-> in the end, this was this the scenario which was used by the authors of non-canons novels and a great majority of fanfictions on the web.
For my part, I think that writers/producers have as tested the waters" in Human Errors with C/7 (even if the script explained this relationship was justified as an experience for Seven) and seeing no volley of blows in return, they kept the idea in a drawer in the event of unforeseen..., what's happened later with Mulgrew's categoric refusal to make J/C happen).
I like the difference between :" I had to kiss Robert Beltran" as if it was a test to overcome and "when I kissed Robert Beltran for the needs of the scene", which is still more neutral, regardless of whether it was nice and tactful if the experience was displeasant.
That being said, even if Chakotay/Seven seemed "logic"*, I would argue about the (lack of) motivation manifested by both actors. It was grossly evident. Indeed, Robert Beltran has showed much more enthusiasm, by the past, in Chakotay's role, when he courtshiped/flirted with hJaneway or Kellin, right?!
So what, would he lost his touch?! ;-) I think that it was much more a discomfort from the actor's part, who, even if he finally got the most pleasant part of storylines in the finale, wasn't necessary satisfied with it (his scenes with Jeri Ryan are stopgap).
As for Jeri Ryan, I'd say that her acting shyness was understable in the measure where her character, Seven, experienced courtship for the first time and was still hesitant on what to do and reactions to get. In short, she was still not very comfortable with this new parameter/situation. But I feel too that she wasn't very comfortable with this storyline, either.
Let's be honest, the actress, Jeri Ryan knew showing much more passion in her scenes with Mulgrew, (Janeway), Picardo (the Doctor), Dawson (Torres) and even, Krige (The Borg queen), by the past so, there is no doubt about her capacity to show her professional involvement in Seven's role.
Fortunaly, the recalcitrant to Chakotay/Janeway like me, did not have much to suffer of their scenes as they were a few and brief, as if producers/writers, aware that this unexpected romance would be controversial, did not want to overstate it.
* And about the charms of the logic, allow me to quote Oscar Wilde, Leo Tolstoï to reveal my reasoning.
"La logique est le dernier refuge des gens sans imagination" (“To note the curious hard logic of passion, and the emotional colored life of the intellect") - Oscar Wilde (The picture of Dorian Gray)
"En matière de sentiment, le manque de logique est la meilleure preuve de la sincérité". ("In terms of feeling, the lack of logic is the best proof of the sincerity" / "Tout raisonnement sur l'amour, le détruit" (All reasoning about love, destroys it) - Leo Tolstoy
Sorry, Tuvok and all your Vulcan's congeners! ;-)
NB: IF Kate Mulgrew, who has weighed heavily during the development of Endgame's screenplay, has decided to finally yield to the J/C mania, even indirectly by leaving the door open to a J/C's romance once Voyager back on Earth, C/7 would have been an pleaant or irritating parenthesis!
-> in the end, this was this the scenario which was used by the authors of non-canons novels and a great majority of fanfictions on the web.
For my part, I think that writers/producers have as tested the waters" in Human Errors with C/7 (even if the script explained this relationship was justified as an experience for Seven) and seeing no volley of blows in return, they kept the idea in a drawer in the event of unforeseen..., what's happened later with Mulgrew's categoric refusal to make J/C happen).
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There are settings to toggle if the defaults do not work for you.
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I wish I could supply a transcript for you or maybe Guy's links can help you actually see it because much is in the camaraderie. Fingers crossed you might get a proper transcript from someone.
Jerri and Garrett field a question from an audience member asking on behalf of her daughter who Jerri thought Seven should be with. (Garret playfully rests his head on her shoulder - you know like "Pick me!"). They laugh and then Jerri asks who the audience member's daughter would've picked. The woman replies "The Doctor". Jerri says she felt sorry or badly for The Doctor and then tells of the episode when Seven and Chakotay were on the planet together and how she wanted to know if it was going anywhere with them. She comments that it was a frustration she felt in the writing and that they missed something with Seven there.
Garret then recounts the dream sequence when he kisses Seven and she turns into an alien. He's laughing and sheepishly recalls being so nervous he was sweating and little bits of tissue paper were sticking to his face. Jerri laughs along. He says years later when he told her how nervous he had been she said: "Oh My Gosh (I played this bit a few times and I can't make out if she calls him 'Gooey' or 'Goobie' - maybe someone else knows) but.. Oh My Gosh that's exactly how I felt when I kissed... Robert Beltran!"
Jerri and Garrett field a question from an audience member asking on behalf of her daughter who Jerri thought Seven should be with. (Garret playfully rests his head on her shoulder - you know like "Pick me!"). They laugh and then Jerri asks who the audience member's daughter would've picked. The woman replies "The Doctor". Jerri says she felt sorry or badly for The Doctor and then tells of the episode when Seven and Chakotay were on the planet together and how she wanted to know if it was going anywhere with them. She comments that it was a frustration she felt in the writing and that they missed something with Seven there.
Garret then recounts the dream sequence when he kisses Seven and she turns into an alien. He's laughing and sheepishly recalls being so nervous he was sweating and little bits of tissue paper were sticking to his face. Jerri laughs along. He says years later when he told her how nervous he had been she said: "Oh My Gosh (I played this bit a few times and I can't make out if she calls him 'Gooey' or 'Goobie' - maybe someone else knows) but.. Oh My Gosh that's exactly how I felt when I kissed... Robert Beltran!"
THANK YOU, Refuge, for this summary.
I notice that today, well, years after the show ended, actors are more relaxed & ready to forgive the wrongs in other actors. Mulgrew/Beltran or Mulgrew/Ryan are able to sit and talk and/or joke, in conventions, to the delight of fans than when they worked together and tensions had made the working atmosphere unbearable.
However, this comradeship does not prevent some to mock or criticize openly an absent colleague, like Picardo-Philipps on Beltran's laziness and Beltran on Ryan's reaction about his provocation or sort of (Beltran has suggested that Chakotay, his character and Seven, Ryan's one, share a kiss and she has answered that she would speak to her boyfriend, who was none less one of Voyager's executive producers, Brannon Braga).
And on opportunities to see Seven finish in the HK's arms or The Doctor's ones, sorry but I remain sceptical.
- HK is maybe a lovely, kind and helpful guy, let's be honest, he was never on the same scale than Seven and I cannot see him being quickly exceed (with her ending up being frustrated, weary and choosing to leave him or him, ending up upset to be unable to cope with Seven's intelligence/personality and finally choosing someone else, more at his level.
- The Doctor: even if they share the same curiosity and alertness, Seven is a 100% a human being raised Borg and at the end of Voyager, she appropriated her body (even if it was not at 100%) and her emotions, while the Doctor is a hologram and regardless of all the improvements he could bring to his program through the years AND his mobile ermitter, which made him sentient (if Starfleet allowed him to keep it, what I seriously doubt as seeing this object in itself is an apparent violation of the Prime Directive and we know how the organization holds in high esteem this policy), nothing could change the fact that he is a program which has a human appearance. Result: he can become obsolete but cannot die unless being unplugged or compiled ; cannot aged unless modifying the settings of his matrice and please, do not train in a discussion about sex between a human being and a hologram. In short, he would have to always cheat to be at Seven's range. You talk about a life together!.
However, I can imagine them together in an artificial way, with the Doctor and Seven 2.0, a hologram in the image of Seven, with her consent of course (= with all mind/intelligence and exterior features -> if Lewis Zimmerman was able to create a hologram of himself, it should be possible with anybody, right?! And with his help). Thus, the two would be tied and a married life together would be no problem and full of fantasy, humor and love! ;-)
I enjoy reading your thoughtful posts and agree on so much.
Thinking about the Doctor in Endgame, I can't say I was overly impressed with the woman he ended up with!
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