Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?
- Thread starter Lorthos
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I just found out the reason. Chac wasn't tall enough for Janeway.
Until Hunters in season 4, she was engaged, and therefore unavailable.
It's just a question of if after Hunters, that Janeway was still saving herself for "Mark the Widower" circa 2404, or if she was in a super depressive funk for the next decade, processing her rage, because some asshole STOLE her man.
It's just a question of if after Hunters, that Janeway was still saving herself for "Mark the Widower" circa 2404, or if she was in a super depressive funk for the next decade, processing her rage, because some asshole STOLE her man.
I am a woman and one that has yet to say to anybody "let's watch this romantic movie tonight", I don't do romance normally.
BUT: they dangled this in front of us from the very first episode and kept it simmering - sometimes more, sometimes less - for seven years, just to let it die an unbelievable death in favor of a romance so stilted and painful that my 12 year old son could probably come up with a more realistic scenario and better dialogue.
Two options:
1. get them together in the end, no scenes showing them devouring each other in the Turbolift required. Understated, tasteful, showing that the promise they made to each other so many years ago is still good. Now, that is a not very realistic scenario, waiting 7 years for somebody happens but I am sure not very often. But, hey, this is sci-fi, so why not stretch what is possible in romance not just what is possible in technology.
2. end this earlier, in no uncertain ways, develop a relationship for Chakotay that is more believable (I would have volunteered to play the alien he finally falls for, but somehow I don't think it was the lack of volunteers that's responsible) and have Kathryn move on.
3. - 100,000,000 other options that would have been better than what we got.
Chakotay: "Oh, sorry, Kathryn, you thought that we would be together, and live happily ever after? I'm so sorry, but someone should have told you that Caretaker castrated me just hours before we first met."
I like your notion of "... this is sci-fi, so why not stretch what is possible in romance not just what is possible in technology." And STAR TREK has not entirely shied away from that. Kevin Uxbridge, for example, was a Douwd (sp.) from TNG who was married to a Human woman, whom - I believe - did not know his true nature. His alien Love for her was so passionate - and powerful - that it ended up having Picard quarantine the entire planet, because of it. The episode was boldly entitled: "Survivors." Sometimes, you watch STAR TREK and go, "... were these writers stoned?"
Then - wouldn't you just know it? - here comes VOY, having another go at this passionate, alien Love-thing, only having it be the woman, this time, hiding her true nature from her intended. And we all know the kind of destruction she proved capable of. I think it worked, it was a strong idea to revisit and having her using everything at her disposal, even pregnancy, to secure her Man's love ... wow! Even though she was evil and shit like that, I'd be very impressed being Loved with such a blinding passion! Who wouldn't be?
Kathryn wasn't a passionate woman. She wanted Love, like everyone else does, that's true. But she wouldn't take it to extremes of any sort. She'd bracket the possibilities of their romance and Chakotay would just have to live with it. Seven, on the other hand ... I'm confident there's no road that she'd be afraid to take, with Chakotay. And that ... THAT ... that's the very heart of it, I feel. He knew that Seven would take him places that Kathryn couldn't even allow herself to fantasize about. Hell, could you imagine Kathryn making Chakotay late for work, to put a smile on his face? Personally ... I can't. Seven, though ...
What is it with you and Chakotay? He is hot, he is the ONLY guy all my girlfriends have agreed is hot. That never happens, they don't agree on anything, ever! They don't even agree that they wouldn't kick Daniel Craig out of bed for eating crackers, not on chocolate or champagne. Sampling bias and all - that meets something!
Up to, and including, his Chakotay Years, I don't doubt that Robert Beltran pretty much always got the women he wanted to be with.
Sorry, totally disagree.
Kathryn, is a still waters run deep kind of woman. I can see her being very passionate - when and if she allows herself to be. The fact that she didn't allow herself to become romantically involved with anybody on Voyager (other than a hologram) is a sign for that. She must have known/believed that it could get out of hand in a hurry. She was playful and passionate on Qarra with what-his-name. Then there was Kashyk, but he was no real prospect either, nazi-alien that he was.
Seven, are you kidding me? I mean sure, she is absolutely stunning, pretty much every man's and some woman's dream body and face - but passion? How is something like that for passion:
"Chakotay, the standard 15.4 minutes of foreplay (I googled that) have concluded, intercourse shall now commence." or
"It is inefficient to rest after intercourse, I shall return to my duties."
you are probably right. All the more surprising that there is so little in terms of rumors and gossip out about him. Sure, this was pre-Facebook and many other social media, but the Internet had already arrived with some force (dotcom boom and all) and there is not much to find about him.
Okay, I just admitted I checked, sort of embarrassing.
Why not have 7 return to her duties, afterwards? Chakotay probably just rolls over and goes to sleep after, anyway, you know? As for the other things ... that's where Chakotay's guidance can really make a difference for her, in future romances. By informing her of the inefficiency of all her yackin'! "Seven, how about a little less 'heart' and a little more 'spark' ... shut up and kiss me."
HA! ... awww! Well, I hope that this discussion has made you more tolerant of the Chakotay/Seven romance. I know that it has, for me. And I want to give Kathryn the benefit of the doubt about still waters running deep, with her. But ... that other stuff you mentioned, that was just flashes in a pan, it's always seemed to me. People, surprise, though. They very often do. But, also ... she was in the Autumn of her Life. The fire dims .... and before she knows it, she's content just to be eating a tray of Cadbury chocolates and watching the telly, every night.
That's funny, I was using "Autumn of her Life" to be gentle about it. I'm not HIjol, who's a true poet, at heart and can type even the harshest critique with words that soothe the soul. I can only speak plainly and to the point.
Saying of which, if you don't care for Seven's fling with Chakotay, that's great, but you don't begrudge his being with females other than Janeway, do you? I mean ... Kathryn hurt his Pride, you know? She dissed him formally, informally, every way to Sunday ... at some point, it's got to sink in that, "hey ... I've been barking up the wrong tree here, after all." Even if Janeway had a change of heart, down the line, B'Elanna already pulled that stunt, I don't believe it would work, again. Kathryn made it clear that getting with Chakotay wasn't just about not being interested ... it would compromise her Social Position. Yeah? Well ... she made her own bed. Now ... she can lie in it. I only ever wanted him to get with her, because that's what he thought he wanted. But, he only thought that, because the selection was so meager. He coveted her, because she was simply there, all the time, that's all.
Saying of which, if you don't care for Seven's fling with Chakotay, that's great, but you don't begrudge his being with females other than Janeway, do you? I mean ... Kathryn hurt his Pride, you know? She dissed him formally, informally, every way to Sunday ... at some point, it's got to sink in that, "hey ... I've been barking up the wrong tree here, after all." Even if Janeway had a change of heart, down the line, B'Elanna already pulled that stunt, I don't believe it would work, again. Kathryn made it clear that getting with Chakotay wasn't just about not being interested ... it would compromise her Social Position. Yeah? Well ... she made her own bed. Now ... she can lie in it. I only ever wanted him to get with her, because that's what he thought he wanted. But, he only thought that, because the selection was so meager. He coveted her, because she was simply there, all the time, that's all.
They all sort of where there, all the time. I mean it was a small ship and all those social functions.
I admit to having trouble with Kathryn's behavior towards Chakotay. Depending on how I feel a certain day, I can see her positively (couldn't risk to let her self get all deeply-madly-crazy about her direct report, afraid to loose him, too, like Justin and being the one responsible for sending him his death, etc.) and negatively (well, that be more along the line of what you wrote) but I don't believe it had anything to do with her social position and compromising it. She doesn't seem that shallow in her interactions with others.
If she really just not into him she should have told him. For Chakotay I would have wished for a better fit, a more logically progressing relationship, something that made sense, somebody how would be more open to the things at are central to his personality, such as his vision quests (I really can't see Seven on a vision quest). Even B'Elanna would have made more sense. So, I want him happy, if not with me (
) than with Kathy as the logical choice and the one he's loved for a long time and if not with her than someone who shares more with him on a deep level than Seven.
I admit to having trouble with Kathryn's behavior towards Chakotay. Depending on how I feel a certain day, I can see her positively (couldn't risk to let her self get all deeply-madly-crazy about her direct report, afraid to loose him, too, like Justin and being the one responsible for sending him his death, etc.) and negatively (well, that be more along the line of what you wrote) but I don't believe it had anything to do with her social position and compromising it. She doesn't seem that shallow in her interactions with others.
If she really just not into him she should have told him. For Chakotay I would have wished for a better fit, a more logically progressing relationship, something that made sense, somebody how would be more open to the things at are central to his personality, such as his vision quests (I really can't see Seven on a vision quest). Even B'Elanna would have made more sense. So, I want him happy, if not with me (
) than with Kathy as the logical choice and the one he's loved for a long time and if not with her than someone who shares more with him on a deep level than Seven.
Do you agree with stardream's sentiments that Seven was probably a selfish lover, because she was an Ice Queen? I'm not entirely confident about that assessment. She was inquisitive. She would've investigated ... experimented. Sort of like how Indiana Jones was being all quasi-scientific, when he went into Willie Scott's bedroom with her and closed the door, behind him in Temple of Doom ...
Selfish, I don't think so, and I am not sure that's what Stardream said/meant. Very inexperienced for sure, which doesn't make for good lovers, nor very imaginative ones. With her constant focus on efficiency its hard to imagine how she could loose herself behind the closed door. Unless there is a Seven burred there somewhere which we haven't gotten to know during the show (there might) I think she wouldn't be much fun in bed. But I am a straight woman, so that probably doesn't mean very much coming from me.
Seven just didn't come across as very passionate to me. Curious yes....but that's not the same thing.
Chakotay was never with B'Elanna. If you are talking about that silly hallucination she had, that wasn't about her specifically being with Chakotay. It, like the other hallucinations experienced by the rest of the crew, all had deeper meanings than what appeared on the surface.
Chakotay was never with B'Elanna. If you are talking about that silly hallucination she had, that wasn't about her specifically being with Chakotay. It, like the other hallucinations experienced by the rest of the crew, all had deeper meanings than what appeared on the surface.
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