Why Commander Riker was never a good character in TNG series ?
- Thread starter dammitjim6400
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In my view, they managed to put together an unexpectedly strong cast and interesting characters. So the show became the sum of those parts. It certainly became more of an ensemble than TOS, which was the Kirk, Spock, and McCoy characters (with Uhura, Sulu, Scott, Chekov in clear support roles, there for the main characters to interact with).
As many have said, Stewart was a powerhouse actor in an excellent role. Brent Spiner is another top level talent and it was apparent early on that his character was interesting and he was capable of carrying episodes and storylines. Levar Burton was a well known and well regarded actor, nominated for an Emmy in 1977 for Roots. But he hadn't done anything noteworthy after that leading into TNG. You had Gates McFadden, who'd been doing choreography and some stage work, Sirtis, who'd done a few bit parts in movies (Death Wish) and had worked on TV in the UK, and Dorn, who'd been Apollo Creed's bodyguard in Rocky, had recurring role on CHiPs, had a few bit parts in a few movies and on TV. Frakes had bounced around TV for years leading up to TNG, mainly as a guest on popular network shows (Dukes of Hazzard, Matlock, Hill Street Blues, Quincy, Fall Guy, Highway to Heaven, Waltons, Eight is Enough, White Shadow, many more). As the series went on, I think, these characters became more interesting as they developed history, became known to the viewers, and as the actors became comfortable with the characters.
With that as a backdrop, I look at the Riker character and can kind of see the challenges involved in developing that character. First, you had a goldmine with Steward as Picard. And you had to work at developing that character, give him a lot to say and do. That was, I think, true of Spiner as Data, as well. You had a character on a unique, interesting journey and an actor capable of doing wonderful things with the material he was given. The Riker character became to some extent the odd man out. He provided authority, action, often became a sounding board or counter-balance to Picard. As the character grew I think he was given more to do and he eventually carried more than a few episodes. But, I feel like it may have been kind of like having Jordan (Stewart) and Pippen (Spiner) on the 95-96 Bulls. Yeah. Kukoc can shoot it and Kerr can step up and make a three when you need it. And you gotta get them the ball a few times a game to keep them in the flow. But you're going to win those Jordan and Pippen. So they're going to take most of you're shots. And Jordan (Stewart) more so then Pippen (Spiner).
As for Riker turning down command again and again. I've never really thought it about. Seems to me they knew they had the formula and it required Riker on the bridge of the Enterprise. So, they'd mention every once in a while that he was ready for command, had passed up command, justify it by having him say, "I can make a difference here" or questioning himself ("What AM I still doing here?"), before finally settling where he needed to be to keep the formula intact. And he remained Number One on the Enterprise.
Was he a GREAT character? No. Was he a good character? Yes. Did he make other characters better, more interesting? I certainly think he did that to a great extent. So, at least in my view, Frakes/Riker did well with what they had and they fit their respective roles as actor/character very well.
As many have said, Stewart was a powerhouse actor in an excellent role. Brent Spiner is another top level talent and it was apparent early on that his character was interesting and he was capable of carrying episodes and storylines. Levar Burton was a well known and well regarded actor, nominated for an Emmy in 1977 for Roots. But he hadn't done anything noteworthy after that leading into TNG. You had Gates McFadden, who'd been doing choreography and some stage work, Sirtis, who'd done a few bit parts in movies (Death Wish) and had worked on TV in the UK, and Dorn, who'd been Apollo Creed's bodyguard in Rocky, had recurring role on CHiPs, had a few bit parts in a few movies and on TV. Frakes had bounced around TV for years leading up to TNG, mainly as a guest on popular network shows (Dukes of Hazzard, Matlock, Hill Street Blues, Quincy, Fall Guy, Highway to Heaven, Waltons, Eight is Enough, White Shadow, many more). As the series went on, I think, these characters became more interesting as they developed history, became known to the viewers, and as the actors became comfortable with the characters.
With that as a backdrop, I look at the Riker character and can kind of see the challenges involved in developing that character. First, you had a goldmine with Steward as Picard. And you had to work at developing that character, give him a lot to say and do. That was, I think, true of Spiner as Data, as well. You had a character on a unique, interesting journey and an actor capable of doing wonderful things with the material he was given. The Riker character became to some extent the odd man out. He provided authority, action, often became a sounding board or counter-balance to Picard. As the character grew I think he was given more to do and he eventually carried more than a few episodes. But, I feel like it may have been kind of like having Jordan (Stewart) and Pippen (Spiner) on the 95-96 Bulls. Yeah. Kukoc can shoot it and Kerr can step up and make a three when you need it. And you gotta get them the ball a few times a game to keep them in the flow. But you're going to win those Jordan and Pippen. So they're going to take most of you're shots. And Jordan (Stewart) more so then Pippen (Spiner).
As for Riker turning down command again and again. I've never really thought it about. Seems to me they knew they had the formula and it required Riker on the bridge of the Enterprise. So, they'd mention every once in a while that he was ready for command, had passed up command, justify it by having him say, "I can make a difference here" or questioning himself ("What AM I still doing here?"), before finally settling where he needed to be to keep the formula intact. And he remained Number One on the Enterprise.
Was he a GREAT character? No. Was he a good character? Yes. Did he make other characters better, more interesting? I certainly think he did that to a great extent. So, at least in my view, Frakes/Riker did well with what they had and they fit their respective roles as actor/character very well.
Starfleet calls this the Riker maneuver.It should also be noted that he was never offered a command after he turned down the Melbourne until STAR TREK NEMESIS.
At that point, it was his 3rd time turning down a command. The revelations about what happened on the Pegasus likely didn't help his career, but I think he shot himself in the foot enough times by that point that it didn't matter.
I think I remember in a novel somewhere that stated the Titan would be his last offer for a command, and if he turned it down he wouldn't get another shot.
In hindsight, and looking at some other posts, maybe Riker would only accept a command of a named Enterprise. His statement to Picard in both GENERATIONS and "The Best of Both Worlds" make me think he wanted to be a part of the legendary name by being one of the captains attached to them.
I think his age in NEMESIS and having Troi be his wife, he realized he can still make just as much a difference and make a big name for himself by captaining any ship. And I suspect Picard may have passed along Kirk's advice to him off screen.
At that point, it was his 3rd time turning down a command. The revelations about what happened on the Pegasus likely didn't help his career, but I think he shot himself in the foot enough times by that point that it didn't matter.
I think I remember in a novel somewhere that stated the Titan would be his last offer for a command, and if he turned it down he wouldn't get another shot.
In hindsight, and looking at some other posts, maybe Riker would only accept a command of a named Enterprise. His statement to Picard in both GENERATIONS and "The Best of Both Worlds" make me think he wanted to be a part of the legendary name by being one of the captains attached to them.
I think his age in NEMESIS and having Troi be his wife, he realized he can still make just as much a difference and make a big name for himself by captaining any ship. And I suspect Picard may have passed along Kirk's advice to him off screen.
The way the novelverse portray it, Riker is given a 'this is your last offer of a captaincy' plus Data's death made him realise it was time to move on.
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Plus the fact that he couldn't remember the song that Data was trying to whistle ( Pop The Weasel) made him realize that he was getting old.
He was on the way to the Titan and the wedding before Data was killed, if memory serves me.
Nemesis definitely has that "settling" vibe about it. Riker marries Troi because they're both getting old, other options have dried up and they fear dying alone. Riker realises Picard won't ever retire and keeps surviving near-death experiences, so he gives up trying to captain the Enterprise and settles for his own ship.
It's kinda dark and sad but so realistic.
It's kinda dark and sad but so realistic.
Dick York or Dick Sargent is nothing at all like characters from Game of Thrones or Walking Dead getting killed off.
Both were still playing the same character of Darrin Stephens.
Like the two Beckys on Rosanne.
Two different actors playing the same character.
I can't actually recall any show 1980's, where main characters died or moved away
And the show actually continued.
Although there were a lot of spin off shows.
When I was in the USArmy, where I was stationed there were many people that were in the same positions for up to 20 years.
I think Riker was a casualty of carrying over the character outlines pretty much lock stock and barrel from phase 2 into early tng. As I remember Riker (as Decker) was designed to take over as the 'Captain Kirk' swashbuckling type so they could write Shatner out for the most part after the first season or so. Once they changed the 'old man Kirk' character to Picard, and had no reason for him to leave (indeed, in Patrick Stewart every reason for him to stay) they kinda shot themselves in the foot.
What happened in "Best of Both Worlds" severely damaged Riker's reputation. I felt that what was said about and to Riker, especially by Shelby, was devastating because the words rang true.
Shelby was spot on about Riker when she told him that "all you know how to do is play it safe. I suppose that's why someone like you sits in the shadow of a great man for as long as you have, passing up one command after another." ... "If you can't make the big decisions, commander, I suggest you make room for someone who can."
Riker was exposed as sort of a fraud, imho. The writers didn't do the character any favor by building up the character the way they did.
For me, Riker was a diminished character after BoBW. Not only was the character's reputation damaged, but Riker loss that persona of a dynamic ambitious officer. Riker became a status quo character.
I was ready for a permanent First Officer Shelby at that point. But it didn't necessarily have to be Shelby. It could have been Shelby, or anyone else, who would have brought back dynamism to the role of Number One.
In any case, it would have been logical to make a change at that point, or shortly afterwards. The Riker character story arc had run its course. I felt a change would have been good for the series as well. There was too much static in the later seasons, a shakeup would have been refreshing.
Shelby was spot on about Riker when she told him that "all you know how to do is play it safe. I suppose that's why someone like you sits in the shadow of a great man for as long as you have, passing up one command after another." ... "If you can't make the big decisions, commander, I suggest you make room for someone who can."
Riker was exposed as sort of a fraud, imho. The writers didn't do the character any favor by building up the character the way they did.
For me, Riker was a diminished character after BoBW. Not only was the character's reputation damaged, but Riker loss that persona of a dynamic ambitious officer. Riker became a status quo character.
I was ready for a permanent First Officer Shelby at that point. But it didn't necessarily have to be Shelby. It could have been Shelby, or anyone else, who would have brought back dynamism to the role of Number One.
In any case, it would have been logical to make a change at that point, or shortly afterwards. The Riker character story arc had run its course. I felt a change would have been good for the series as well. There was too much static in the later seasons, a shakeup would have been refreshing.
Shelby would have been in and out of the first officer's chair in less than a year. Accepting the first decent starship command offered to her. One more stepping stone.
She'd have Admiral Hanson's endorcement.
I can see that happening.
Or maybe, Shelby becomes the new Riker -- inexplicably losing all of her ambitions and playing it safe, just like Riker. Clinging on to the Enterprise and to Picard season after season.
That would be terrible though.Seriously, I would have accepted a trade off of Shelby over Riker at that point in the series, even if it was only a one year stint by Shelby, and then someone new replacing her. If it made sense for the character and the story for that to happen, I would be ok with that. Also, it would help keep the show interesting.
His unnatural stance, unaligned eyes and of course the Riker maneuver. What is he - a frog? Who told him to do that? I couldn't believe it the first time I saw it. Well at least he didn't make it a habit of jumping over the wood bar on the bridge like the rest of them did. Damn that bridge was way too big and they couldn't make it big enough even, knocking down a wall to contain it. Plus the bridge was slanted. It kid of looked like Picard's head. Don't get me started. Stewart would have made a better alien or Ambassador even.
I would have hated it.I can see that happening.
Or maybe, Shelby becomes the new Riker -- inexplicably losing all of her ambitions and playing it safe, just like Riker. Clinging on to the Enterprise and to Picard season after season.
Seriously, I would have accepted a trade off of Shelby over Riker at that point in the series, even if it was only a one year stint by Shelby, and then someone new replacing her. If it made sense for the character and the story for that to happen, I would be ok with that. Also, it would help keep the show interesting.
I thought Riker was too good looking to get rid of.
I'm soooooo shallow.
Jealous?????
Walking through a doorway looking left, while turning right?
When I read the topic of this thread I wonder, is it general consensus that Riker was a weak character?
I don't think he was a weak character, in some cases he was great.
I don't think he was a weak character, in some cases he was great.
My own opinion is that Riker didn't grow like many others did in season 3 and after: making Picard more adventurous for Stewart's sake came at the expense of Riker. Correspondingly, Frakes' growth as a director seemed to outpace what he was doing in front of the camera.
I liked his directing significantly more than his acting.
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