Why are the TOS movies better then the TNG movies?

[Ssosmcin]

TSFS - ok, not very epic except for getting Spock back

Not very epic? Saving Spock and preventing the Klingons from getting the Genesis device (in other words The Atomic Bomb) are pretty high stakes. Add the destruction of Enterprise, the death of David, the sacrifice of their careers, and the chaotic breaking up of the Genesis planet and you can see that Star Trek III is actually one of the most epic films in the series.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I think it's all really been said, but these are my thoughts.

1) the length of time between the final episode of TOS and their first movie making it a true reunion each time we saw them. Each movie was an event.

2) Character development and change, since each TOS film was pretty much seen as "the last". TNG films were always seen as an ongoing series, so whatever change they made was reset or made with an eye to that project series (Data's chip being negated and the new Enterprise being introduced). Otherwise, characters started out off model and the change was coming back to the status quo (Picard 3 out of 4 movies). Only TVH had the reset button after they tied up the loose end of "the trilogy."

3) That fact that TOS was an action adventure show and TNG was a low key sci-fi drama. TOS didn't have to change its format much to fit on the big screen (with the exception of TMP I guess). TNG became something totally contrary to what it once was.

4) TOS has three main characters and four supporting. Their films had the same recipe. TNG had seven main characters, but the movies only focused on two or three of them. Beverly might as well have been Uhura for all the screen time she got.

Whether or not someone feels TOS movies are "better" than TNG films is all opinion. The real issue is that the original series movies were truer to the concept of their original series than TNG's films were. You felt like the TOS movies were a natural progression from what came before, while TNG had to change to fit the demands of the big screen and big box office. When we saw The Wrath of Khan, we caught up with crew 15 or so years older; Kirk was depressed over his birthday, seeing his life mostly gone by and not having a command - mid-life crisis ahoy. When we watched First Contact, we saw Picard totally different from the man we knew only two years earlier; he met the Borg twice after his assimilation and didn't regress into a revenge filled maniac. In FC, he was freaking out over lines being drawn there, breaking his little ships and calling Worf a coward. He was wildly out of character for no logical reason other than to give Patrick Stewart an awkward Shatner moment (and really, Shatner was better that this sort of thing). Instead of the movies being consistent extensions of the series, they were totally separate entities.

Finally, with two other Star Trek shows on TV, the enthusiasm for paying to see yet another 23rd century based movie was severely diminished.

 

[CaptainMatt]

I felt Picard's rage in FC was costly but beliveable. The Borg appearances in TNG between TBOBW and the feature film First Contact were largely and wisely ignroed for the sake of dramatic license for this particular story.

 

[MasuPu'a]

I felt Picard's rage in FC was costly but beliveable. The Borg appearances in TNG between TBOBW and the feature film First Contact were largely and wisely ignroed for the sake of dramatic license for this particular story.

I thought it was understandable to see Picard so upset. Yes, he's a pretty cool-headed captain, but everyone cracks under pressure (remember the episode where he was tortured by the Cardassians?). So it is believable to think that Picard has kept all this pent-up rage and guilt over the Borg using him to attack the Federation, and in FC it finally comes out.

 

[Maurice]

...preventing the Klingons from getting the Genesis device (in other words The Atomic Bomb) are pretty high stakes.

The Klingons murdered the scientist (David) they needed to get Genesis, so the only way Kirk and Co. stopped the Klingons was by showing up so that Kruge took hostages and killed one. That was tragic and wholly accidental side-effect of their arrival.

 

[CaptainMatt]

I felt Picard's rage in FC was costly but beliveable. The Borg appearances in TNG between TBOBW and the feature film First Contact were largely and wisely ignroed for the sake of dramatic license for this particular story.

I thought it was understandable to see Picard so upset. Yes, he's a pretty cool-headed captain, but everyone cracks under pressure (remember the episode where he was tortured by the Cardassians?). So it is believable to think that Picard has kept all this pent-up rage and guilt over the Borg using him to attack the Federation, and in FC it finally comes out.

Agreed, and it works better for a movie than in a regular TV series too. I think Stewart does some of his finest acting in this feature film. He comes face to face with his nightmares (the Queen) and handles it as best as anyone could expect him to.

 

[Vasquez Rocks]

Also, the Borg he encountered in I Borg and Descent were individuals and not part of the Collective. This is really the first time he is dealing with I guess you can say the "real" Borg. The ones that assimilated him.

In First Contact, Picard sees his worst nightmares become reality. The temporal wake at the beginning allows him to see that the Borg have conquered and assimilated Earth. He finds out in this film that he is still connected to them by the fact that he is able to "hear" them. Beverly must have missed a few Borg implants or something in TBOBW part 2 when she removed them. That might have made for an interesting exchange between the two in the movie, but sadly was overlooked. Picard himself may have thought that he dealt with his feelings regarding the Borg in the past, but this film puts that to the test.

 

[Angel4576]

I don't see a great deal of difference between the TOS and TNG era movies.

TOS - TWOK, TVH & TUC great, TMP, TSFS & TFF poor.

TNG - GEN & FC great, INS & NEM poor.

 

[CaptainMatt]

Also, the Borg he encountered in I Borg and Descent were individuals and not part of the Collective. This is really the first time he is dealing with I guess you can say the "real" Borg. The ones that assimilated him.

In First Contact, Picard sees his worst nightmares become reality. The temporal wake at the beginning allows him to see that the Borg have conquered and assimilated Earth. He finds out in this film that he is still connected to them by the fact that he is able to "hear" them. Beverly must have missed a few Borg implants or something in TBOBW part 2 when she removed them. That might have made for an interesting exchange between the two in the movie, but sadly was overlooked. Picard himself may have thought that he dealt with his feelings regarding the Borg in the past, but this film puts that to the test.

Thank you for your post. it makes great sense to me and I have to concur with your viewpoints about Picard not having dealt with the "real" Borg Collective since TBOBW until FC takes place. He is surely put to the test even more so than in the earlier episodes, and has to rely on what he kniows to keep him afloat. I like how he summons the courage to go after Data towards the end of the film. After all, it was Data who pirmarily helped him through the assimilation crisis by linking to him in TBOBW. So it makes perfect sense now data is in trouble, that Picard would mount a rescue attempt. And the fact he doesn't involve any other crewmen makes it all the more personal which I love.

 

[MasuPu'a]

Also, the Borg he encountered in I Borg and Descent were individuals and not part of the Collective. This is really the first time he is dealing with I guess you can say the "real" Borg. The ones that assimilated him.

In First Contact, Picard sees his worst nightmares become reality. The temporal wake at the beginning allows him to see that the Borg have conquered and assimilated Earth. He finds out in this film that he is still connected to them by the fact that he is able to "hear" them. Beverly must have missed a few Borg implants or something in TBOBW part 2 when she removed them. That might have made for an interesting exchange between the two in the movie, but sadly was overlooked. Picard himself may have thought that he dealt with his feelings regarding the Borg in the past, but this film puts that to the test.

Thank you for your post. it makes great sense to me and I have to concur with your viewpoints about Picard not having dealt with the "real" Borg Collective since TBOBW until FC takes place. He is surely put to the test even more so than in the earlier episodes, and has to rely on what he kniows to keep him afloat. I like how he summons the courage to go after Data towards the end of the film. After all, it was Data who pirmarily helped him through the assimilation crisis by linking to him in TBOBW. So it makes perfect sense now data is in trouble, that Picard would mount a rescue attempt. And the fact he doesn't involve any other crewmen makes it all the more personal which I love.

Agreed. And I think part of the reason Picard goes alone is that people have noted how many lives Picard wasted earlier in his blind pursuit of revenge against the Borg. After he finally realized that his anger and guilt was foolish and pointless, he probably also saw how it was killing people needlessly. He goes alone rather then sacrifice another crewmember.

 

[CaptainMatt]

That a good explanation for it, thanks for suggesting it! It makes Picard into more of the hero he is meant to be when he dares to go by himself to face his inner demons one final time and to rescue Data, a loyal crewmember.

 

[Balrog]

I don't see a great deal of difference between the TOS and TNG era movies.

TOS - TWOK, TVH & TUC great, TMP, TSFS & TFF poor.

TNG - GEN & FC great, INS & NEM poor.

My list would move TSFS over to the positive side and GEN to the dark side.

 

[The Green Mushroom]

I realize that most, if not all, of this may have been said before but:

The TOS movies are, in general, better than the TNG movies because they were created as movies (except for TMP) while the TNG movies were written as two hour long TV episodes with a bigger budget. All of the TNG movies have this problem, they are structured no different than the series are almost the 8th season of the show. They have an A-Story and a B-Story and use their extra time to put a little more characterization into each. The fact that the A-Story centers around Picard and the B-Story is usually about Data doesn't help in the slightest. Even the best of the TNG films, First Contact could easily have been done as a two part episode, albeit on a much smaller scale.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I agree with The Green Mushroom about the episode quality of TNG movies. Insurrection is particularly like a double episode with the classic Trek theme of idyllic villagers with something special they have to protect from greedy corporations.

For me though the main reason the TOS movies are better is I'm much fonder of the TOS crew than the TNG crew who I'm mostly meh about. I don't think I've ever lost the thrill of seeing the TOS folks on the big screen after so many years of only having 3 seasons of them.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

You would not like The War of the Worlds with Tom Cruise, then....

I loved War of the Worlds with Tom Cruise, in large part because it was more personal in scope--which I said I liked--and, as JerrodRussel pointed out, it wasn't about Tom Cruise saving the world.

 

[Patrick O'Brien]

I believe that much of the success of the TOS movies is due to the participation of Nicholas Meyer.

Good call Meyer understood how to make a Trek film work.

 

[USS KG5]

In terms of a general consensus amongst film buffs, there have been several good TOS films, but only one good TNG film (First Contact).

It is very much YMMV - depending on what you want from your Trek.

The TOS films covered such a wide array of styles (big ponderous sci-fi with TMP, action adventure with TWOK, whodunnit with TUC, environmentalist romantic comedy with TVH) that it is hard not to like at least one of them. None are great films, though the most critically respected is generally TWOK, with TMP getting honourable mentions for it's SFX, score and ambition.

TSFS and TFF are decidedly weaker than the others IMHO, but both have elements I love and a lot of other fans do. I would not want a trek canon without "Oh my God bones..." or the fun interplay between the three main characters in TFF.

The TNG movies on the other hand are a very odd bunch. They never really decide on the tone, so you get Generations, which saucer crash and Kirk cameo aside is just an episode of TNG. You also get two out and out action movies in FC and Nem, especially with the latter where it seems they took several set pieces and wrote a star trek story around them. The you get INS, and god knows what they were thinking, possibly a TVH effect but they might have wanted a better script if they were going to try that.

All eleven movies to date have their moments, and all are products of their time. How long-time fans perceive each one is very much dependent on what they want. Certainly those looking for a TMP style movie in the current climate will be very disappointed.

 

[Patrick O'Brien]

TSFS and TFF are decidedly weaker than the others IMHO, but both have elements I love and a lot of other fans do. I would not want a trek canon without "Oh my God bones..." or the fun interplay between the three main characters in TFF.[/QUOTE]

Great point. This is the reason why I watch TFF. The interaction between Kirk, Spock and McCoy is awesome.

 

[Galileo7]

I believe that much of the success of the TOS movies is due to the participation of Nicholas Meyer.

Good call Meyer understood how to make a Trek film work.

Agree.
(If only Meyer had worked on TFF script it could have been one of the best.)

 

[Patrick O'Brien]

I believe that much of the success of the TOS movies is due to the participation of Nicholas Meyer.

Good call Meyer understood how to make a Trek film work.

Agree.
(If only Meyer had worked on TFF script it could have been one of the best.)

I bet you are right. If only