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whos your fave?

Who's your favorite main character?


  • Total voters
    126
WRT Neelix, I can't say I've ever liked him. I actually think he's the stupidest alien character ever conceived for the ST franchise. I think they wanted a funny alien character like Quark but they really blew it. Neelix has rarely been funny. On the contrary, he's irritating. He's ST's Jar-Jar Binks imo. Worse, that whole relationship with Kes, who was less than two years old at the time, is beyond creepy. It's a wonder that Berman, Pillar, and Taylor didn't take a step back and say, "Hey, we have a hairy middle-aged truck-driving man hooking up with a minor (at the very least)."

Yeah, I know, Kes is supposed to be very mature for her age, but the whole concept of the Ocampans never ever worked for me. She had less than two years of life experience, how could she possibly be mature?

Technically, Kes isn't human, so therefore her age does not make her very young as in a human child's age. And the fact that she is only two but she is very mature, lies on the very fact that she is indeed an Ocampa and is not human...
And besides that matter, age makes no difference on maturity level. Many have said I am beyond my years, but I am still young.
So therefore, she is evidently the same way.
 
WRT Neelix, I can't say I've ever liked him. I actually think he's the stupidest alien character ever conceived for the ST franchise. I think they wanted a funny alien character like Quark but they really blew it. Neelix has rarely been funny. On the contrary, he's irritating. He's ST's Jar-Jar Binks imo. Worse, that whole relationship with Kes, who was less than two years old at the time, is beyond creepy. It's a wonder that Berman, Pillar, and Taylor didn't take a step back and say, "Hey, we have a hairy middle-aged truck-driving man hooking up with a minor (at the very least)."

Yeah, I know, Kes is supposed to be very mature for her age, but the whole concept of the Ocampans never ever worked for me. She had less than two years of life experience, how could she possibly be mature?

Technically, Kes isn't human, so therefore her age does not make her very young as in a human child's age. And the fact that she is only two but she is very mature, lies on the very fact that she is indeed an Ocampa and is not human...
And besides that matter, age makes no difference on maturity level. Many have said I am beyond my years, but I am still young.
So therefore, she is evidently the same way.

Yeah, I know that.

That said, again, it strains credibility that with only 2 years of life experience , Kes could be considered a mature adult. Physically, she might be in her early 20s when she met Neelix, mentally, I can't buy that she's that age at all. I posed this question to a psychologist I know and she agreed with me and found the whole relationship to be really offensive (she was a child psychologist who had treated abused kids). I just think it was a terrible idea for the creators of VOY to hook up an older man with a young woman who could be considered a minor, or, at worst, a child.

I know I'm in the minority wrt this, but I feel strongly about this subject, as I know a girl who was victimized this way, pursued by a much older man while being a 15 year old girl in highschool. It ruined her life.

Kes and Neelix, imo, is the same scenario all over again.
 
Rocketscientist,

I understand where you are coming from, and that is terrible that your friend had this happen to her. It's terrible for anyone and it shouldn't even happen, but Kes and Neelix's relationship does not have anything to do with that.
Like you said, she is physically in her early twenties, she is mature, her age of two is not a child's age due to the fact that she is an Ocampa.
So therefore I see nothing wrong with it. And she is not being victimized by Neelix whatsoever. She loved him dearly, and he loved her the same. She was not a child at all, and Neelix isn't really much older than she is physically.
Evidently mentally, Kes is a mature adult and does not act like a child at all, nor is she a child for that matter. Perhaps a young adult but no older or younger.
I have heard of no one having problems with this yet, and I had a discussion with a comrade who agrees with me as well.

However, I am not trying to say that you are wrong or I am right, I have stating only what I believe, and we are free to our opinions.
So I am at the most content, to have to discussion, for I do in fact, see where you are coming from, but I also what to give you my opinion too.
So no hard feelings at all. :]
 
Rocketscientist,

I understand where you are coming from, and that is terrible that your friend had this happen to her. It's terrible for anyone and it shouldn't even happen, but Kes and Neelix's relationship does not have anything to do with that.
Like you said, she is physically in her early twenties, she is mature, her age of two is not a child's age due to the fact that she is an Ocampa.
So therefore I see nothing wrong with it. And she is not being victimized by Neelix whatsoever. She loved him dearly, and he loved her the same. She was not a child at all, and Neelix isn't really much older than she is physically.
Evidently mentally, Kes is a mature adult and does not act like a child at all, nor is she a child for that matter. Perhaps a young adult but no older or younger.
I have heard of no one having problems with this yet, and I had a discussion with a comrade who agrees with me as well.

However, I am not trying to say that you are wrong or I am right, I have stating only what I believe, and we are free to our opinions.
So I am at the most content, to have to discussion, for I do in fact, see where you are coming from, but I also what to give you my opinion too.
So no hard feelings at all. :]

Nope, no hard feelings Dark Mage. :)

It's nice that I can respectfully disagree wrt these feelings on the Kes-Neelix relationship on this forum without causing a stir, which is not my intention.

Yes, I know we, as the audience, have to accept the conceit that Kes was really 20-something, despite the huge scientific implausibility of it. My problem with it (in addition to the complete lack of chemistry imo between Kes and Neelix), is that, when I take a step back and think, "Could someone who ages over 10 times faster than a human be the equivalent of a 20 year old in mental development in 2 years?" I find myself saying no. And, again, I ran it by a psychologist who specializes in child psychology and she said that idea didn't fly either.

Of course, as an engineer, I know a lot of the technology and science in Voyager (and the other ST shows) doesn't hold up either, so why shouldn't psychology be tossed aside as well?

I guess I feel differently there, because that's a branch of science that the Voyager creators didn't have to "cheat" with. With Kes, I feel they did.

So, again, if you accept a woman with only 2 years of life experience and mental development (and yes, I know the Ocampa brain will develop faster but what about emotional development?), having a romantic relationship with a hairy, middle-aged alien. I just can't see anything good about that. It's just a lot to take, even for ST.

But, again, I appreciate you're consideration, Dark Mage. Thanks for not over-reacting! :)
 
Rocketscientist,

I agree, and it is not my intention either. :)

Ah, I do see where you are coming from indeed, it is something to ponder upon really, and I've thought about it too.

There's no right or wrong answer really. And of course I will not over react with anything you say becuase it isn't my place to judge you or to critisize your opinions. I respect you and your opinions strongly and will say nothing to insult you, and I hope I have not done that, and if so, I apologize.

You do make a good point though.
I think that an Ocampa's brain function can mature physically and emotionally in such a quick amount of time, but that is my opinion. And I say that your opinion is a nice probability too. Both make sense to me.

And by the way, I'm a big fan of Neelix and Kes. :D
 
Rocketscientist,

I agree, and it is not my intention either. :)

Ah, I do see where you are coming from indeed, it is something to ponder upon really, and I've thought about it too.

There's no right or wrong answer really. And of course I will not over react with anything you say becuase it isn't my place to judge you or to critisize your opinions. I respect you and your opinions strongly and will say nothing to insult you, and I hope I have not done that, and if so, I apologize.

You do make a good point though.
I think that an Ocampa's brain function can mature physically and emotionally in such a quick amount of time, but that is my opinion. And I say that your opinion is a nice probability too. Both make sense to me.

And by the way, I'm a big fan of Neelix and Kes. :D

No need to apologize DK! We're cool! :cool:

And it's cool you're a fan of Neelix and Kes. Can't say I am, but if everyone felt the same about things, this place would be pretty boring!
 
Rocketscientist,

I thank thee for such repsect. :)

And true, if we all liked the same characters, this place would be boring!
I also like The Doctor, Janeway, Chakotay, and Seven. :)
 
WRT Neelix, I can't say I've ever liked him. I actually think he's the stupidest alien character ever conceived for the ST franchise. I think they wanted a funny alien character like Quark but they really blew it. Neelix has rarely been funny. On the contrary, he's irritating. He's ST's Jar-Jar Binks imo. Worse, that whole relationship with Kes, who was less than two years old at the time, is beyond creepy. It's a wonder that Berman, Pillar, and Taylor didn't take a step back and say, "Hey, we have a hairy middle-aged truck-driving man hooking up with a minor (at the very least)."

Yeah, I know, Kes is supposed to be very mature for her age, but the whole concept of the Ocampans never ever worked for me. She had less than two years of life experience, how could she possibly be mature?

Technically, Kes isn't human, so therefore her age does not make her very young as in a human child's age. And the fact that she is only two but she is very mature, lies on the very fact that she is indeed an Ocampa and is not human...
And besides that matter, age makes no difference on maturity level. Many have said I am beyond my years, but I am still young.
So therefore, she is evidently the same way.

Yeah, I know that.

That said, again, it strains credibility that with only 2 years of life experience , Kes could be considered a mature adult. Physically, she might be in her early 20s when she met Neelix, mentally, I can't buy that she's that age at all. I posed this question to a psychologist I know and she agreed with me and found the whole relationship to be really offensive (she was a child psychologist who had treated abused kids). I just think it was a terrible idea for the creators of VOY to hook up an older man with a young woman who could be considered a minor, or, at worst, a child.

I know I'm in the minority wrt this, but I feel strongly about this subject, as I know a girl who was victimized this way, pursued by a much older man while being a 15 year old girl in highschool. It ruined her life.

Kes and Neelix, imo, is the same scenario all over again.

As I've written before, I don't think that those in charge really did know what they were doing when they created that scenario. I don't think they ever saw the possibility that Kes could be regarded as under-age. It was more like, "hey, let's create a beauty-and-the -beast-scenario".

If they did realize that it didn't look so good (which I doubt), then they did as they always did when something went wrong in the show, they just let it roll along and continue, sort of "never mind, the fans won't notice".

The most stupid thing was that nine-year lifespan. Without it, the Kes-Neelix relationship don't look that bad.

I can see Rocketscientist's point about the impossibility of learning and developing in only two years. On the other hand, since the species had such a short lifespan, I guess that the writers and producers thought that it would be possible for the Ocampa to develope that fast in only two years, just like some dog or cat.

The way the Ocampa develope is another interesting things. According to different sources, among them Jeri Taylor's book "Pathways", they develope very fast in the first two years. Then they stay almost the same for 7-8 years before aging rapidly at the end of their lives.

If we look at Kes, she did celebrate her second birthday at the end of 2371. Than means she was about 1,5 years old when she was saved from the Kazon by Neelix and the Voyager crew which would make her an equivalent to a 17-20 years old or something like that, still in the "danger zone". :eek: (say hello to Eeky!)

OK, as I've said before, the Ocampa do develope different than humans but....

Oh dear, what a mess. And I feel sorry for the Ocampa, the most ruined species of all in Star Trek (but highly likeable).

No wonder that, as a fan of the character Kes, I've spent so much time trying to come up with a way to "write around" the lifespan problem. It only creates trouble.
 
I like The DOctor most, because of his humor.

I love his humor and his sarcastic comments.

I must admit that The Doctor was the only character I didn't take an immediate liking to when I watched "Caretaker" the first time. I thought that the whole thing about a "living hologram" was too much over the top. But after 2-3 episodes he had become a favorite too, mostly because of his humor. I remember that he did gave me a good laugh in "Parallax" when he was shrinking and also in "Time And Again" when he ranted about being on "the voyage of the damned". :lol:

I always found the interaction between him and Kes funny and entertaining. My favorite is the conversation in "Parturition".

Kes: "Neelix and Tom Paris had a fight-over me."
The Doctor: "How delightful!"
Kes: On my homeworld it's so much simpler. You choose a mate for life. There's no distrust, no envy no betrayal.
The Doctor: Your homeworld must have very dry literature!"

Not to mention some funny exchanges with other crewmembers as well and his comments "Im a doctor, not a......"

And my definite Doctor favorite is from "Threshold" when Paris is taken into sickbay:

The Doctor: "What did he ingest?"
B'Elanna: "Just a cup of Neelix's coffe!"
The Doctor: "It's a miracle he's still alive!" :lol:

Great character and great acting from Robert Picardo!
 
Lynx,

I do not see this 'beauty and the beast' effect that you've come up with.
The romance was between an Ocampan and a Talaxian, not two humans. A comrade of mine and I, think the intricacies of the alien cultures was one of the most interesting things about the Star Trek world.

Their ages will be dramatically different to that of human beings.

An Ocampan is an alien species, nothing of the human world. They do have the brain structure to learn a vast amount in only so little years. It would make perfect sense.

Seventeen to twenty isn't bad at all even if she was considered that age.

That's like saying Tanis was robbing the cradle with Kitiara, or Arwen and Aragorn, a comrade of mine pointed out.

I see nothing wrong with it, nor does she. Actually I thought that the relationship was highly adorable and that thei age differences aren't as dramatic as others say.
 
I like The DOctor most, because of his humor.

I love his humor and his sarcastic comments.


Kes: "Neelix and Tom Paris had a fight-over me."
The Doctor: "How delightful!"
Kes: On my homeworld it's so much simpler. You choose a mate for life. There's no distrust, no envy no betrayal.
The Doctor: Your homeworld must have very dry literature!"

+1 love The Doctor.

on Kes/Neelix creepyness neither are Humans so maybe an old truck driver scamming on a 20 year old is normal...I think Kes should have hooked up with Paris at least for a few seasons.
 
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Oh gods, not Paris! He's annoying and too...cocky. He's one of my least favourites.
I prefer Kes being with Neelix overall, he's the kindest of the men and gives her the most respect.
 
I agree with Lynx regarding the creation of the Ocampa. I really don't think the creators of Voyager really thought through the ramifications of that particular species.

Now, to be fair, most animals mature much faster than humans. However, due to our complex brains, we take longer. Psychologically speaking, there's nothing good about teenagers marrying older men.

So, within those parameters, I can see Kes' brain developing faster. That, coupled with the speed that Ocampans learn, well, at the most, maybe that puts her as a teenager in when she came on Voyager, still, imo, way too young for Neelix.

Whatever, again, I just don't think the 9 year lifespan was well thought out at all. I do know that Jeri Taylor commented on how they had a lot of trouble coming up with new sorts of characters on Voyager after ST, TNG, and DS9. I can see their problem. Neelix and Kes were the two new alien characters. Tuvok was a Vulcan and largely followed the path Leonard Nimoy created. B'lanna Torres, similarly, had the Klingon background throughly explored with Worf in TNG and DS9. Neelix and Kes were the two big opportunities for unique alien characters on VOY and, imo, neither of them worked well at all. :(
 
Oh gods, not Paris! He's annoying and too...cocky. He's one of my least favourites.
I prefer Kes being with Neelix overall, he's the kindest of the men and gives her the most respect.

Paris/Kes makes much more sense though to me...Kes and Neelix are exact opposites: shes young- he's old, shes a quick learner- he's unable to learn(everytime he attemps to create a homemade dish he always puts something stupid in it like leola root and ruins it) she likes to explore and discovery-he's always complaining that the crew should be happy with what they got on Voyager...They aren't 'opposites attract' either but just opposite and they don't compliment each other at all.
 
They aren't that opposite to me. She gets along with Neelix more than she does anyone else, and he isn't old at all. Even if he does ruin what he cooks most of the time. lol They get along perfectly in my view of it.
Paris is too cocky for Kes, I think.
 
Lynx,

I do not see this 'beauty and the beast' effect that you've come up with.
The romance was between an Ocampan and a Talaxian, not two humans. A comrade of mine and I, think the intricacies of the alien cultures was one of the most interesting things about the Star Trek world.

Their ages will be dramatically different to that of human beings.

An Ocampan is an alien species, nothing of the human world. They do have the brain structure to learn a vast amount in only so little years. It would make perfect sense.

Seventeen to twenty isn't bad at all even if she was considered that age.

That's like saying Tanis was robbing the cradle with Kitiara, or Arwen and Aragorn, a comrade of mine pointed out.

I see nothing wrong with it, nor does she. Actually I thought that the relationship was highly adorable and that thei age differences aren't as dramatic as others say.

Well, my "Beauty and the beast" isn't as bad as it looks, more my way to point out that those in charge were going for a relationship between contrasts.

The age thing is unimportant if we consider Kes as something between 18-22 and Neelix in his thirties. It's the silly lifespan which the writers came up with which complicates things.

Personally I thought the relationship was OK in the beginning. But in the long run I could see that it wouldn't last because of both characters development in different directions. I guess that Kes felt grateful to Neelix for saving her from the Kazon and saw him as some sort of hero. But when she had settled in on the ship and got other friends among the crew and other tasks as a crewmember, they drifted apart. Neelix's jealousy and over-protection, how well-meant they might have been may have been restraining for her in some ways. So the break-up was inevitable in the long run. Unfortunately it was handled very badly by the writers and producers.

That's my take of it. As for the characters, I like them both! :techman:
 
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