Sure, the Federation, with its hundreds of member worlds which included Vulcans and Andorians, should have overwhelming numerical advantage. Yet, Klingons and Romulans are seen as equal or greater in number. Go figure.
Who would win in a war?
- Thread starter All Seeing Eye
- Start date
The Klingons are way too underestimated, IMO. And while a poster mentioned "free peoples," keep in mind that local interests could easily be exploited by the enemy in a war to the detriment of the polity as a whole (because not every locality is of strategic value to the polity as a whole).
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
I once started another thread a while back where I made the case that the Federation in reality should be the sole Major superpower with the Klingons and Romulans being only minor superpowers.
The Federation has over 150 member worlds and its founding worlds Vulcan, Andoria, Tella etc were extremely powerful civilisations back in 2156 and even a match for the Klingons of that time period (especially the Vulcans) so considering this, the Federation as soon as it was founded was an already powerful organisation (stronger than the Klingons) which then expanded far quicker than the Romulans or Klingons ever could.
The Federation doesnt even need to subjugate worlds only sign a piece of paper, the Federation also has the scientific genius of over 150 different species whereas the Klingons and Romulans only have themselves.
Federation space should in reality be at least 5 time larger than Klingon/Romulan space and this coupled with the member worlds would mean that Starfleet has access to a gigantic supply of resources and manpower to build and maintain a huge fleet and if required 'army'.
Truth is the Federation would, in reality, be strong enough to take out the Romulans AND the Klingons both at the same time.
The Federation has over 150 member worlds and its founding worlds Vulcan, Andoria, Tella etc were extremely powerful civilisations back in 2156 and even a match for the Klingons of that time period (especially the Vulcans) so considering this, the Federation as soon as it was founded was an already powerful organisation (stronger than the Klingons) which then expanded far quicker than the Romulans or Klingons ever could.
The Federation doesnt even need to subjugate worlds only sign a piece of paper, the Federation also has the scientific genius of over 150 different species whereas the Klingons and Romulans only have themselves.
Federation space should in reality be at least 5 time larger than Klingon/Romulan space and this coupled with the member worlds would mean that Starfleet has access to a gigantic supply of resources and manpower to build and maintain a huge fleet and if required 'army'.
Truth is the Federation would, in reality, be strong enough to take out the Romulans AND the Klingons both at the same time.
^ What he said. :thumbsup:
Given any warning or lead up time, or if the Klingons or Romulans don't win in very short order (which is almost impossible given the sheer size of the Federation) then the Federation would have a huge advantage over those two Empires just from the amount of resources to draw from and member planets to conscript.
Bear in mind that the opposite case may apply that the Federation has to negotiate and communicate as they expand their territories, avoiding contact with less developed civilizations, while the Romulans and Klingons expand without such delays and see less developed species as a source of cheap labor (one ship in orbit and you can transport the leaders of any government into your custody).
Take Earth in 2007 as an example. Starfleet would avoid a pre-warp civilization and not risk exposing the population to their technology. They would avoid using the solar system as a rallying point or hidey-hole, and wouldn't exploit the resources of the many planets. The Klingons or the Romulans, on the other hand, would use the solar system for every hiding spot, every scrap of ore and gulp and deuterium they could lay their hands on, and they'd get themselves a slave labor force of six billion as a nice bonus.
The Klingons and the Romulans have been building their empires since back when the Vulcans and their neighbors were isolationists; the number of worlds the Romulans and Klingons control and their core populations could be staggering. Their reach into the Beta Quadrant has never really been covered.
And while it's true that the Federation can maintain large areas of territory with treaties rather than a fleet presence, this produces a unique problem. If Starfleet can get away with a low fleet density, only a few ships per sector, then a few ships per sector may be all they get.
When a colony's supply ships fail to turn up and there isn't a fleet presence nearby to help, a bad situation gets worse - like Kodos the Executioner killing off a few thousand colonists in The Conscience of the King or Tasha Yar's home colony descending into chaos. If you need a bunch of civilians evacuated from a planet it may take weeks for a transport ship to arrive, like in The Ensigns of Command. If your border outposts are under attack ships that can help are few and far between; by the time the first responding ship turns up several installations have already been destroyed - like in Balance of Terror or The Neutral Zone.
And if a hostile force assaults Federation territory and Starfleet needs to rally fifty or so ships to fight it, they can't fight them at the border but have to pull back several systems - like the battle at Wolf 359 in Best of Both Worlds Part 2. Starfleet had advance warning that the cube was coming and Enterprise had been buying Starfleet more time to rally by playing hide-and-seek with the Borg in a nebula, but even with that extra time Starfleet was still unable to assemble a force until the intruder was deep inside the Federation.
Because the Federation is co-operative, Starfleet can get away with a low fleet density. That's not necessarily a good thing. It may have allowed them to make the most of their ships and expand very rapidly, but that doesn't automatically correlate to superior military strength or fleet support. From what we've seen they're stretched quite thin.
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"If there is to be a Brave New World, our generation will have the hardest time living in it."
STAR TREK: RUST RED
No one, the Organians would raid the game.
That applies to all peacetime military forces in a democracy without exception. Even the mighty US Navy has many of its funding requests turned down as too costly and unnecessary.
The trick is the ability to hold the line long enough to turn your economy from a peace to a war footing and start building ships like there is no tomorrow. In this extent the federation is very much like the USA in 1942, massive potential to build being unlocked while battles are being decided by three aircraft carriers and lessons learned at huge cost.
I thought this change was very well portrayed in DS9, as we gradually saw the developments that led to the Dominion War including refitting old ships, building manyh new ones and eventually the vast fleets of that War.
That showed what the Feds are REALLY capable of, just because they do notr pretend to be Kim Jong Il and have a massive useless standing army in peacetime does not make them weak.
I think that in an out and out war the Federation would win. The Federation has masive resources, vast amounts of territory, and a huge base of manpower to draw on.
If any other species were to invade I am sure that the Federation would suffer serious losses at the beginning but the Federation has space (and lots of it) to trade for time. As long as the Federation was willing to pull a MacArthur and abandon indefensible systems they could fight retrograde actions and build up their forces while the opposing force lost their strength trying to fight across Federation space.
The Federation would be a lot like Russia. They have massive borders to defend and generally get invaded quite often but they have time to build up their armies and launch a massive counteroffensive that crushes the enemy.
In DS9 we say Starfleet go from a relatively small exploratory force to a massive fleet ready for war in a matter of months. The Federation has the resources to turn out large numbers of capital ships and massive amounts of smaller vessels when they put their mind to it.
As to the technology question, I'm sure that a Klingon or Romulan advantage would soon be negated. It's simply the way war is. The Federation would find some way to counter Romulan and Klingon cloaking or develop their own.
Also, I have to question the stability of the Klingon and Romulan governments to sustain a continued offensive. Klingon's always seem to be arguing with each other and I bet that the Vulcans would be willing to infiltrate Romulan space and instigate a number of secessionist rebellions hoping for reunification.
If any other species were to invade I am sure that the Federation would suffer serious losses at the beginning but the Federation has space (and lots of it) to trade for time. As long as the Federation was willing to pull a MacArthur and abandon indefensible systems they could fight retrograde actions and build up their forces while the opposing force lost their strength trying to fight across Federation space.
The Federation would be a lot like Russia. They have massive borders to defend and generally get invaded quite often but they have time to build up their armies and launch a massive counteroffensive that crushes the enemy.
In DS9 we say Starfleet go from a relatively small exploratory force to a massive fleet ready for war in a matter of months. The Federation has the resources to turn out large numbers of capital ships and massive amounts of smaller vessels when they put their mind to it.
As to the technology question, I'm sure that a Klingon or Romulan advantage would soon be negated. It's simply the way war is. The Federation would find some way to counter Romulan and Klingon cloaking or develop their own.
Also, I have to question the stability of the Klingon and Romulan governments to sustain a continued offensive. Klingon's always seem to be arguing with each other and I bet that the Vulcans would be willing to infiltrate Romulan space and instigate a number of secessionist rebellions hoping for reunification.
I agree. But the Klingons are neither democratic nor can their inter-House struggles be called peacetime, not mentioning any occupations they're running, so we're going to see very different fleet densities.
Actually, I just had a thought. There's an assumption that because the Federation expands through treaties and agreements that the Klingons and the Romulans must therefore expand through conquest. If one side takes the high road, then the other has to take the low road.
But there's no rule against the Klingons or Romulans making alliances. In fact we've seen them do it, providing ships, fleet support and technology to each other even. They can make treaties and alliances when it's the best option; they can also conquer and enslave when it's the fastest way through. That gives them more techniques, not fewer, for rapid territorial expansion than the Federation.
As an example, suppose a Klingon ship is busy expanding the Klingon border and they're halted by a patrol ship from a foreign power protecting their own territory. The Klingons can choose to use force, or negotiate, or avoid a confrontation, or sneak across the border when no one's looking. Starfleet has far fewer options - many of the above breach Federation law and Starfleet directives.
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"If there is to be a Brave New World, our generation will have the hardest time living in it."
STAR TREK: RUST RED
Yes but in peacetime we know very well that the Klingon ships go back to the various houses to do their dirty work, often fighting each other, policing worlds those houses control etc. Even the Klingons have a lot of housekeeping to do and it seems highly unlikely they would keep large standing fleets floating aound waiting for something to do.
It is likely they do have a fleet, like the Royal Navy's Home Fleet of old, that hangs around Kronos or the Fed border looking impressive and waiting for the call. But this fleet would quickly run out of steam in any attack.
The analogy I would use is the Federation aggressively colonizes nicely and wont stoop to nasty, like a cuddly British Empire. The Klingons started off as the Russians and later moved on to being a much more rounded construct actually quite similar to the Federation, just willing to get out the club when required.
BUT - eventually no-one trusts them any more. The modern world intensely distrusts the USA because of its perceived Imperialism and grab for Oil. This seriously affected the Iraq War and is making previously rock-solid allies in the Middle East (like Jordan) look less and less solid. At the same time rebellions of the people are becoming more common.
The Feds appreciate that military conquest is a lousy way to spread an Empire. They never would resort to full-scale invasions as the Klingons or Romulans sometimes might (and only sometimes I suspect). They might however, through an organisation like Section 31, try a few old British Empire tricks.
For example, the old Hong Kong blackmail the Chinese ploy? The Feds would do that if important enough I am sure, though probably not with Opium....
But the Feds would use the only SENSIBLE option, they would try to talk and if a fight ensued exercise the better part of valour. At First Contact you dont know who you are up against and caution is most sensible.
Besides the Feds are more than capable of sneaking around surveying new species we have seen it in several episodes.
I would have to argue that it remains a better ready position, whether their ships are maintaining occupations or continuing a growling match with other Houses. A home fleet that 'runs of out steam' (I'm not sure what episode that's based on, but whatever) and forces accumulated by the various Houses makes for a better option than a fleet that isn't there, or one that takes months to rally.
Treaties get a reputation for being worthless if the side in question frequently breaks them. The opposite can equally apply. If the Klingons or Romulans find a species, gauge its strength and determine that a truce or alliance is more beneficial than a costly occupation, they're perfectly free to make a treaty and not break it. They're not compelled by the dark side, they aren't physically required to be evil. They could easily accumulate a list of client species who they have functioning and intact treaties with. They may also have a list of species they've conquered or annihilated (probably didn't bother with treaties), but that doesn't neutralize the value of a treaty. In fact it might push its value up market (they're murderous, but they keep their word).
Although honestly I'm not sure how much trust will come into it for a species deep in the Beta Quadrant, who doesn't have the option of saying no to the Klingons or the Romulans in the hope that the Federation will make a better offer. Also a treaty might not be based on trust, but on the belief the other party is predictable, manageable, or in the worst case something you can endure if there is no better option. The Federation-Cardassian treaty comes to mind, and I'm sure you don't need my help to think of contemporary examples.
Keep in mind that the splintered and confrontational nature of the Klingon Houses gives them a certain political flexibility. The Empire can play one House as vicious and another as honorable - good cop bad cop, but on a galactic scale. Duras and Worf, Gowron and Martok; the Klingons are simultaneously vicious murderers who must be feared and honorable soldiers who can be trusted. We've even seen Trek characters make value judgments on Klingons based on their House history. Their 'predictability' can be played as an advantage. But in the long run, we've simply seen that the Klingons and Romulans can still get treaties made, trust or no trust.
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"If there is to be a Brave New World, our generation will have the hardest time living in it."
STAR TREK: RUST RED
Its not based on an episode but real sustained warfare - any standing forces are quickly ground down and replaced by reinforcements arranged for the war.
If the Klingons were to be attacked any attack would aim to take out their standing forces very quickly (think France 1940 or Barbarossa), and conversely when they are launching an attack those standing forces would form the first wave, therefore getting used up rapidly as well.
There is a reason the USA does not have a large "home fleet" protecting its coast, it is not needed - there are always ships in local waters at their home bases capable of defending the USA against any likely attack. There is a "Pacific Fleet" and an "Atlantic Fleet" but they do not all go around together flying the flag except very rarely, because they are needed to patrol, rattle the sabre at Iran etc.
A reputation for invading and conquering might prove a bit difficult in negotiations, take the problems currently of US diplomacy with Iran as a real world example. Neither side trusts the other as far as they can throw a nuke.
They might say no to the Klingons and fight and win - the British Empire got a bloody nose from Guerilla warfare in one of the colonies once, I think they call themselves the USA now...
Agreed on these points - I do not doubt that the Klingons and romulans are capable diplomats, I just disagree with your original statement that having the stick option as well as the carrot is better - eventually people start not wanting to deal with you for fear of falling foul of the stick when you do something they don't like.
Saddam used to be the USA's best mate after all, and look what happened to him when he did something the big empire didn't like...
Good point - though to be fair the Feds can probably do the same with some of their more wayward members. There is probably a good episode to be made about teaching the fleet of a new member the "Starfleet" way, maybe had DS9 made it to season 8 or 9 we might have seen this with the Bajorans.
On a side note, how nifty would it have been to see the Feds turn up with fifty war surplus Mirandas and Excelsiors plus a few token Nebulas or a Galaxy and say "here are some new ships to get you started..." - it is pretty much what the Royal Navy did for the navies of Australia, New Zealand etc
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