Who knows about Section 31's involvement in the war?

[Rush Limborg]

I seem to recall O'Brien and Bashir had a similar disagreement in "Hippocratic Oath". Although Julian did not accuse O'Brien of such things, let alone in such a way.

Anyway...how did that work out? The First was the only one who could survive without the White--and, coincidently, think for himself, questioning the command of the Founders--and all that was probably not intentional. It was an accident--as was Weyoun 6. The races, however, were cloned and bred with specific intentions in mind--and the ep with the young Jem'Hadar, which you shrug off as his "being a teenager", had the specific point that Odo couldn't get him to suppress the violence in favor of something else.

They were programmed, also, not just to be violent, but to follow the will of the Founders--as that same episode makes clear, regarding how Odo is the only one who can hold him back (and even then, only for a while).

Do they have a culture, a code of honor, and variations of personality and opinion? Of course. That does not mean that they are capable of such things as abandoning en masse the aforementioned programming. What was the Founder's last command to the Jem'Hadar, before the surrender? To fight to the end.

Were there rogues, like in the Iconian episode? Yes. They were, again, stark exceptions to the rule--and as the "loyal" Jem'Hadar made clear how unusual that was. And of course, they were to be hunted down and killed off.

Besides...if you are so sure that they could have fully free will--surely, then, freeing them from the command of the Founders could, eventually, turn out to be a good thing. Free, allowed to think for themselves--what makes you so sure they'd be worse than the Dominion under the rule of Founders who despise solids? Or do you think the Founder's hatred of solids is not as potent as the Jem'Hadars might be against other races?

I would contend, if things were to turn out the way you claim--spintered factions, etc.--it would be far less of a threat than a great, massive, organized enemy with a far more hostile agenda.

As to the Russians in WWI and WWII--in WWII, Russia was united. It was united under the tyrrany of Stalin--but united nonetheless. I hardly think the Dominion could possibly be any more united than it under the Founders.


Finally--

Maybe. But that doesn't mean they deserve to die for it, either.

A hell of a lot of Americans knew about and did nothing to stop the war of aggression in Iraq in 2003. Others knew about the torture of innocent Iraqis in places like Abu Graib. That doesn't mean they share the same guilt as those who perpetuated those crimes.

You can't paint an entire race in one brush.

And you can't equate debatable (and I would contend, laughable to describe like that--but that's a debate for another time) policies as that with genocidal policies...can you? Painting all questionable policies of war in one brush?

Again--we never hear, not even once, of a Founder who defects. And we would have, for reasons I already stated.

 

[Thestral]

Except a defector from the Link would be, for all intents and purposes, one of the grestest turmning points in the entire War--especially with the sort of information they'd have provided. Further, it's almost a given Odo would have interacted with said defender.

Believe me, we'd have heard about it.

Have you forgotten that the wormhole was closed off to the Gamma Quadrant - and thus the Link - from the very moment war began? First by the minefield and then the will of the Prophets. Before the mining of the wormhole there would be no need for a defector to turn the non-existent War; after the mining of the wormhole there was no way to get in from the Gamma Quadrant. If there was a defector from the Link once actual war broke out, we'd never have gotten to meet that Founder.

As though that weren't already being waged in the first place.

Here's the difference, though: were the other side driven to all-encompassing rage--blinding them to all other concerns--that leads to irrational tactics, thus leading to instability, thus leading to defeat.

Total war was not being waged. Planets weren't being glassed until the end, stars weren't (generally) being exploded. The Founders were out to conquer, to expand, to bring their order to a chaotic universe, not to destroy. And have you never heard of cold fury? The Jem'Hadar embody it well - their elders tend to be cold and professional.

And what of the White? Even if the Vorta weren't to poison the White, and were the Jem'Hadar to rebel against them, etc.--that means there is no way to replicate the White, which means the Jem'Hadar eventually en masse fall into withdrawl, which makes them decidedly incapable of waging a full-scale revenge war.

As was addressed, there's no reason to think the Jem'Hadar can't figure out how to replicate White, or use a conquered species to replicate it (or, hell, even reprogram Vorta clones to be loyal to Jem'Hadar).

If those "non-genocide" Founders do not try to put a stop to those policies--knowing full well what is going on--than their guilt is even greater than those that support those policies. Why? Because they "know" that their bretheren are committing atrocities--and are doing nothing to stop it.

They do not have the courage of their convictions, and their disagreement is purely "armchair".

When you say "put a stop to" what do you mean? Argue their point? Use violence against another Founder, or the Link itself (as if!)? What would "having the courage of their convictions" look like?

 

[Rush Limborg]

Except a defector from the Link would be, for all intents and purposes, one of the grestest turmning points in the entire War--especially with the sort of information they'd have provided. Further, it's almost a given Odo would have interacted with said defender.

Believe me, we'd have heard about it.

Have you forgotten that the wormhole was closed off to the Gamma Quadrant - and thus the Link - from the very moment war began? First by the minefield and then the will of the Prophets. Before the mining of the wormhole there would be no need for a defector to turn the non-existent War; after the mining of the wormhole there was no way to get in from the Gamma Quadrant. If there was a defector from the Link once actual war broke out, we'd never have gotten to meet that Founder.

Assuming, of course, that except for the one we keep meeting, the Founders were all over in the Gamma Quadrant, number one. But we know in eps like "Change of Heart" that there were a lot of infiltrators.

Number two--those infiltrators--and all the sabotage (read: terrorism) they engaged in? The message is clear: "They were at war with us; we weren't at war with them." The Founders were waging war in such episodes as "Homefront" and "By Inferno's Light". And the wormhole was still open.

As though that weren't already being waged in the first place.

Here's the difference, though: were the other side driven to all-encompassing rage--blinding them to all other concerns--that leads to irrational tactics, thus leading to instability, thus leading to defeat.

Total war was not being waged. Planets weren't being glassed until the end, stars weren't (generally) being exploded. The Founders were out to conquer, to expand, to bring their order to a chaotic universe, not to destroy. And have you never heard of cold fury? The Jem'Hadar embody it well - their elders tend to be cold and professional.

Without the White, that professionalism breaks down--and the "coldness" with it.

And what of the White? Even if the Vorta weren't to poison the White, and were the Jem'Hadar to rebel against them, etc.--that means there is no way to replicate the White, which means the Jem'Hadar eventually en masse fall into withdrawl, which makes them decidedly incapable of waging a full-scale revenge war.

As was addressed, there's no reason to think the Jem'Hadar can't figure out how to replicate White, or use a conquered species to replicate it (or, hell, even reprogram Vorta clones to be loyal to Jem'Hadar).

And that's, again, something we'd have heard about. Instead, we meet a First who's naturally immune, who's struggling to find out how to make his men the same way.

If those "non-genocide" Founders do not try to put a stop to those policies--knowing full well what is going on--than their guilt is even greater than those that support those policies. Why? Because they "know" that their bretheren are committing atrocities--and are doing nothing to stop it.

They do not have the courage of their convictions, and their disagreement is purely "armchair".

When you say "put a stop to" what do you mean? Argue their point? Use violence against another Founder, or the Link itself (as if!)? What would "having the courage of their convictions" look like?

Well, let's see--using their power as Founders to go to such-and-such a force of Jem'Hadar, and make them stand down?

Going to the other side, and giving them the information necessary to defend against the onslaught?

Just to name a couple.

As it stands, the Jem'Hadar were carrying out the will of the Founders. Plural. As though the issue were all settled.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You know...we've been arguing back-and-forth, all of us, on what "might" have happened, and might not have, had the virus not been cured, etc. It's all based on conjecture, frankly, and guesswork on how this group would behave, and that group, and so on.


But all this is based on the assumption that the intent was to kill off the Founders.

Is it not possible that 31 had intended for the cure to be obtained by Bashir--that Sloan basically faked everything--to be handed to the Founders on the condition of surrender? It would certainly explain his odd behavior (such as conveniently forgetting to lock down Bashir's computer, a la "Inter Arna") in "Extreme Measures.

Just an alternative hypothetical.

 

[horatio83]

Yeah, give them even the credit for having been stopped by Bashir. You want them to be smarter than they are.

It is an incompetent, undemocratic and criminal institution and via their love its fanboys reveal that they share S31's disdain for democracy and law& order.
It's the old totalitarian game, under the guise of defending the state or whatever you can have a break from an ethical life and enjoy a carneval of violence.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Uh-huh.

Look, compare the precautions Sloan had taken in "Inter Arna"--such as, as I just noted, locking down Bashir's computer--and compare that to his "forgetting" to take those precautions in "Extreme Measures."

Don't you find that just a bit suspicious?

 

[Sci]

Uh-huh.

Look, compare the precautions Sloan had taken in "Inter Arna"--such as, as I just noted, locking down Bashir's computer--and compare that to his "forgetting" to take those precautions in "Extreme Measures."

Don't you find that just a bit suspicious?

No. If Sloan were truly competent, he would never have tried to recruit an idealist like Bashir in the first place -- and he wouldn't have left Bashir alive after being turned down.

 

[Thestral]

^ Indeed. The last part especially.

Assuming, of course, that except for the one we keep meeting, the Founders were all over in the Gamma Quadrant, number one. But we know in eps like "Change of Heart" that there were a lot of infiltrators.

Number two--those infiltrators--and all the sabotage (read: terrorism) they engaged in? The message is clear: "They were at war with us; we weren't at war with them." The Founders were waging war in such episodes as "Homefront" and "By Inferno's Light". And the wormhole was still open.

For one thing, we don't know how many infiltrators there were; all the spy from Change of Heart has is information on "every single one." This doesn't necessarily mean "a lot," it could be could be 20... or 5.

What's more, this doesn't in any way disprove my point, because all we know is that the ones actively engaged in sabotage and disruption were hostile to the Federation (and Klingons, and Cardassians) - but acts of subterfuge aren't the same as open warfare; I'd expect a James Bond fan to know that. Destabilizing is one thing, outright warfare another. The point is, if at any time there was a defector from the Link after "Call to Arms" we'd never have known it.

As was addressed, there's no reason to think the Jem'Hadar can't figure out how to replicate White, or use a conquered species to replicate it (or, hell, even reprogram Vorta clones to be loyal to Jem'Hadar).

And that's, again, something we'd have heard about. Instead, we meet a First who's naturally immune, who's struggling to find out how to make his men the same way.

You're conflating things that don't merit conflation. All this proves is that one Jem'Hadar soldier was trying to liberate his men from the White. This isn't the same as a faction of Jem'Hadar deciding that in the absence of the Founders there's no use for the Vorta but that the White doesn't have to be gotten rid of. And why would we have heard about Jem'Hadar figuring out how to replicate white, etc.? There was never any reason to.

As it stands, the Jem'Hadar were carrying out the will of the Founders. Plural. As though the issue were all settled.

And the US Military is said to be carrying out the will of the people, as though the issue were settled, but 2003 showed that the issue is very much not settled.

Is it not possible that 31 had intended for the cure to be obtained by Bashir--that Sloan basically faked everything--to be handed to the Founders on the condition of surrender? It would certainly explain his odd behavior (such as conveniently forgetting to lock down Bashir's computer, a la "Inter Arna") in "Extreme Measures.

That's even worse of a boneheaded plot, because if O'Brien hadn't just happened to insist on going along, or if Bashir hadn't just happened to be reading Dickens but only to a certain point, or if Ezri hadn't just happened to come stop by, the whole thing would have fallen apart and Bashir would've died along with Sloan. Not to mention that if Odo hadn't just happened to make it back to DS9 in the first place, or if Damar hadn't just happened to side with Kira over Rusot, etc, the plan would've failed. And for that matter, Sloan never indicated anything about handing the cure over with conditions. No, David Xanatos would look at that plan and laugh uproariously.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^ Indeed. The last part especially.

You two have an odd definition of competence. And as Sloan himself pointed out--for an "idealist", Bashir has done some pretty cynical things over the years--for one, a lifelong cover-up of his genetic enhancements.

Assuming, of course, that except for the one we keep meeting, the Founders were all over in the Gamma Quadrant, number one. But we know in eps like "Change of Heart" that there were a lot of infiltrators.

Number two--those infiltrators--and all the sabotage (read: terrorism) they engaged in? The message is clear: "They were at war with us; we weren't at war with them." The Founders were waging war in such episodes as "Homefront" and "By Inferno's Light". And the wormhole was still open.

For one thing, we don't know how many infiltrators there were; all the spy from Change of Heart has is information on "every single one." This doesn't necessarily mean "a lot," it could be could be 20... or 5.

And until we do, neither argument gains any ground of valdity. And number is beside the point--many times, less is more.

What's more, this doesn't in any way disprove my point, because all we know is that the ones actively engaged in sabotage and disruption were hostile to the Federation (and Klingons, and Cardassians) - but acts of subterfuge aren't the same as open warfare; I'd expect a James Bond fan to know that. Destabilizing is one thing, outright warfare another.

Destabilizing is one thing, terrorism another. And the incident in "By Inferno's Light"--wherein the Bashir changeling attempted to destroy--with one stroke--the fleets of the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans--was an act of war, not "destabilization".

And that's, again, something we'd have heard about. Instead, we meet a First who's naturally immune, who's struggling to find out how to make his men the same way.

You're conflating things that don't merit conflation. All this proves is that one Jem'Hadar soldier was trying to liberate his men from the White. This isn't the same as a faction of Jem'Hadar deciding that in the absence of the Founders there's no use for the Vorta but that the White doesn't have to be gotten rid of. And why would we have heard about Jem'Hadar figuring out how to replicate white, etc.? There was never any reason to.

Just that it would've been a major turning point in the war--a rogue group of Jem'Hadar; an alternative means of creating White, that was not under the command of the Dominion.

Were it to have suceeded, we'd have seen a "new" side enter the stage. But we didn't.

As it stands, the Jem'Hadar were carrying out the will of the Founders. Plural. As though the issue were all settled.

And the US Military is said to be carrying out the will of the people, as though the issue were settled, but 2003 showed that the issue is very much not settled.

No, it is not said to be carrying out the "will of the people". That's what elected representatives are said to do. The Military follows the command of the President, as Commander-in-Chief. Nowhere is it supposed to be carrying out "the will of the people"--but the will of the C-in-C, with the caveat that its first loyalty is to the Constitution.

As far as the Jem'Hadar is concerned, the C-and-C and the Constitution are both embodied in the Founders.

Is it not possible that 31 had intended for the cure to be obtained by Bashir--that Sloan basically faked everything--to be handed to the Founders on the condition of surrender? It would certainly explain his odd behavior (such as conveniently forgetting to lock down Bashir's computer, a la "Inter Arna") in "Extreme Measures.

That's even worse of a boneheaded plot, because

Okay, let's go over it one by one...

if O'Brien hadn't just happened to insist on going along,

Not really; Sloan knew that O'Brien was there, thus working him in to sell the deception.

or if Bashir hadn't just happened to be reading Dickens but only to a certain point,

As though that would've been the only clue Sloan could've dropped.

or if Ezri hadn't just happened to come stop by, the whole thing would have fallen apart and Bashir would've died along with Sloan.

Ezri and Sisko just stood by and monitored the whole thing. They didn't yank Julian and Miles out--Julian did it.

Not to mention that if Odo hadn't just happened to make it back to DS9 in the first place, or if Damar hadn't just happened to side with Kira over Rusot, etc, the plan would've failed.

Assuming Odo would've been necessary for the Federation to offer to hand the newly-discovered cure over on the condition of the Dominion's surrender.

And for that matter, Sloan never indicated anything about handing the cure over with conditions.

And...we never saw any indications of Founder defectors or Jem'Hadar manufacturing their own White, either, Kestrel. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

No, David Xanatos would look at that plan and laugh uproariously.

Laugh at, or laugh with? I'd go for the latter.

 

[naverhtrad]

You two have an odd definition of competence. And as Sloan himself pointed out--for an "idealist", Bashir has done some pretty cynical things over the years--for one, a lifelong cover-up of his genetic enhancements.

All the more reason for Sloan to regard Bashir as too dangerous to be used as a 31 operative. For an organisation like Section 31 to work effectively, with all of the resources and all of the connexions it has, it has to be sure that its operatives are all of unquestionable loyalty (not just to the Federation as Bashir was, but to 31 itself), and that they show the judgement necessary to be effective in sensitive operations. Bashir was neither loyal to 31, nor did he agree with Sloan's judgements.

Is it not possible that 31 had intended for the cure to be obtained by Bashir--that Sloan basically faked everything--to be handed to the Founders on the condition of surrender?

I have to agree with Kestrel on this one. That does sound like a damn boneheaded plot to me.

Even granted that Sloan was depending on O'Brien being present and involved, such a plot would depend on Sloan being fully aware of what Bashir and O'Brien would do (going inside his brain) once he attempted suicide - a procedure so experimental that even Bashir didn't really know what he was doing. And that plot still ends either in the death or brainwashing of one of their top operatives, one with sensitive info not just on the Founders, but on the Romulans, on the Klingons, on top-secret Federation projects. The first option might be acceptable to 31; the second would not be so.

Such a plot wouldn't only be risky, it would be damn sloppy.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think the cure was intended to force a surrender, yes, not to commit actual genocide. However I doubt Bashir was supposed to be the one who delivered it.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well, in answer to both your concerns with the idea--I'd say Sloan is nothing if not an expert at adapting to the given situation. As it stood...again, it was extremely suspicious that Sloan didn't lock down Bashir's computer like he did in "Inter Arna".

And I sincerely doubt, to be frank, that Sloan's implant killed him. As a logical extention of my theory--its effect was something similar to what happened to Zek in "The Nagus"--a trance simulating death, that would be reversed by an agent who would get hold of Sloan's "body".

 

[naverhtrad]

Well, in answer to both your concerns with the idea--I'd say Sloan is nothing if not an expert at adapting to the given situation. As it stood...again, it was extremely suspicious that Sloan didn't lock down Bashir's computer like he did in "Inter Arna".

Not necessarily. Sloan's arrival aboard DS9 in 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges' was completely unexpected, and Bashir was alone. In 'Extreme Measures' both Sisko and O'Brien were in on the plan, and could easily have flagged the computers or caused them to crash when Sloan attempted to do just what he had done the last time.

And I sincerely doubt, to be frank, that Sloan's implant killed him. As a logical extention of my theory--its effect was something similar to what happened to Zek in "The Nagus"--a trance simulating death, that would be reversed by an agent who would get hold of Sloan's "body".

Well, sorry, but here you're doubting canon. Sloan died. He's passed on. This agent is no more; he has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker! He's a stiff, bereft of life; he rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed him to the perch he'd be pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleeding Choir Invisible! This is an ex-agent!

... Ahem. Anyway.

Given Bashir's track record and the enormity of what was at stake in the episode, the idea that he would be so badly mistaken about the permanence of Sloan's brain-death is risible.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well, in answer to both your concerns with the idea--I'd say Sloan is nothing if not an expert at adapting to the given situation. As it stood...again, it was extremely suspicious that Sloan didn't lock down Bashir's computer like he did in "Inter Arna".

Not necessarily. Sloan's arrival aboard DS9 in 'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges' was completely unexpected, and Bashir was alone. In 'Extreme Measures' both Sisko and O'Brien were in on the plan, and could easily have flagged the computers or caused them to crash when Sloan attempted to do just what he had done the last time.

And yet, in "Extreme", Sloan sat there, calm and collected--and seemed suprised at the idea that Bashir knew he coming. Had Bashir flagged the computer--Sloan would've known, and wouldn't have acted like nothing was going on. He'd have said something in Sickbay like, "Nice idea of yours, locking down the computer before I did. You're learning, Doctor--I'll give you that...."

No--the only explanation making sense, if you assume that Sloan didn't want to be caught, is that he didn't bother to lock down the computer.

And I sincerely doubt, to be frank, that Sloan's implant killed him. As a logical extention of my theory--its effect was something similar to what happened to Zek in "The Nagus"--a trance simulating death, that would be reversed by an agent who would get hold of Sloan's "body".

Well, sorry, but here you're doubting canon. Sloan died. He's passed on. This agent is no more; he has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker! He's a stiff, bereft of life; he rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed him to the perch he'd be pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleeding Choir Invisible! This is an ex-agent!

So was Trip, as far as "canon" was concerned. See: The Good That Men Do.

... Ahem. Anyway.

Given Bashir's track record and the enormity of what was at stake in the episode, the idea that he would be so badly mistaken about the permanence of Sloan's brain-death is risible.

Well, as for his track record--in "Inter Arna", we see Sloan outwitting Bashir. If he did it once, he could do it again--because Sloan knows how the good doctor thinks--which was how he was able to outwit him the first time.

He could surely do it again--especially with "the enormity of what was at stake".

 

[naverhtrad]

And yet, in "Extreme", Sloan sat there, calm and collected--and seemed suprised at the idea that Bashir knew he coming. Had Bashir flagged the computer--Sloan would've known, and wouldn't have acted like nothing was going on. He'd have said something in Sickbay like, "Nice idea of yours, locking down the computer before I did. You're learning, Doctor--I'll give you that...."

If he was indeed surprised at the idea that Bashir knew he was coming, then that lends greater credence to the theory that he just didn't bother locking down the computers. If he were only pretending to be surprised, he would have certainly taken the precautions he had in 'Inter Arma'. See, your pet theory about 31 giving the cure intentionally to Bashir turns on the assumption that Sloan knew he was being expected (and that he knew what Bashir would attempt to do, and that he knew that Bashir had the technology to go mind-diving, and that Bashir had the means, will and competence to rescue the information from his 'body' after attempting to commit suicide...), and I don't see how that string of assumptions holds up except by wishful thinking.

So was Trip, as far as "canon" was concerned. See: The Good That Men Do.

Novels and fanfiction are the two good reasons we have the distinction between Memory Alpha and Memory Beta; between canon and apocrypha.

I never bothered with novels or fanfiction.

Well, as for his track record--in "Inter Arna", we see Sloan outwitting Bashir. If he did it once, he could do it again--because Sloan knows how the good doctor thinks--which was how he was able to outwit him the first time.

He could surely do it again--especially with "the enormity of what was at stake".

I believe you are missing one of the primary raisons d'etre of 'Extreme Measures'. Bashir could only beat Sloan by behaving out-of-character; by doing things which were morally shady in order to achieve what he thought was the greater good. He resorted to kidnapping and invasive mind-probing procedures in order to get the information that would save Odo's life.

And Sloan was beaten by Bashir's bending of his own rulebook. Hence: 'I misread you - I thought you were just a misguided idealist, but you're a dangerous man...', et cetera. And I will reiterate - this time Bashir was not alone. Sloan was not expecting either O'Brien or Sisko to be in on Bashir's plan, if indeed he was expecting a plan at all.

 

[horatio83]

The great thing about Section 31 was that this organization was portrayed as unambiguously evil yet it was also implied that even a great society like the Federation needs such a Praetorian Guard. This tension made the stories interesting.

We also see this in the real world, to establish something like democracy you need to go through a Jacobin phase, to establish something like capitalism you need to go through a few decades of sweatshops (before forces like unions arise and moderate the horrors of work). When the financial crisis broke out the message of the people in power was basically "no time for democratic games, this is serious".
I think it is necessary and inevitable that the foundations of any society, even a democratic one, are basically totalitarian. You do not vote about democracy itself (in Weimar this was possible), there are some axioms which you cannot question. And to come closer to Section 31, every democratic society has inherently undemocratic intelligence services.

Of course the easy way out would be the liberal solution, to proclaim that our democracy is not perfect yet, that these are authoritarian ingredients which we should eliminate and so on. While I wouldn't disagree with this point of view I doubt that it is entirely possible.

So yeah, this dialectical stuff is what I personally liked about the S31 stories. It was neither a TNGesque liberal sermon about the evil of intelligence service but it was neither a 24esque celebration of them. It played outside this liberty-security dimension (which is the basic background of the discussion on the last pages) and asked more fundamental questions.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You know...that was a far better analysis than just saying "fascist", and so on.

However, I still take issue with saying it was portrayed as "unambiguously evil". The point is the ambiguity--it's not that simple to just dismiss it as "evil"--in part for the reasons you noted, but for many other reasons, too.

And yet, in "Extreme", Sloan sat there, calm and collected--and seemed suprised at the idea that Bashir knew he coming. Had Bashir flagged the computer--Sloan would've known, and wouldn't have acted like nothing was going on. He'd have said something in Sickbay like, "Nice idea of yours, locking down the computer before I did. You're learning, Doctor--I'll give you that...."

If he was indeed surprised at the idea that Bashir knew he was coming, then that lends greater credence to the theory that he just didn't bother locking down the computers. If he were only pretending to be surprised, he would have certainly taken the precautions he had in 'Inter Arma'. See, your pet theory about 31 giving the cure intentionally to Bashir turns on the assumption that Sloan knew he was being expected (and that he knew what Bashir would attempt to do, and that he knew that Bashir had the technology to go mind-diving, and that Bashir had the means, will and competence to rescue the information from his 'body' after attempting to commit suicide...), and I don't see how that string of assumptions holds up except by wishful thinking.

I'll show you.

The question still exists: Why didn't Sloan lock down the computer? Whether he knew he was being expected or not doesn't change the fact that he had locked down the comupter in "Inter Arna". He wasn't being expected, then.

Why didn't he lock it down, this time?

As for how he would know of Bashir having the means, etc.--Section 31 knew a heck of a lot about Bashir, as was seen in "Inquisition".

Further, wouldn't you think they would be keeping watch on him, after revealing their existance to him?

But, as for what he would do...I would say he adapts according to the situation he is in--which also addresses--

Well, as for his track record--in "Inter Arna", we see Sloan outwitting Bashir. If he did it once, he could do it again--because Sloan knows how the good doctor thinks--which was how he was able to outwit him the first time.

He could surely do it again--especially with "the enormity of what was at stake".

I believe you are missing one of the primary raisons d'etre of 'Extreme Measures'. Bashir could only beat Sloan by behaving out-of-character; by doing things which were morally shady in order to achieve what he thought was the greater good. He resorted to kidnapping and invasive mind-probing procedures in order to get the information that would save Odo's life.

And Sloan was beaten by Bashir's bending of his own rulebook. Hence: 'I misread you - I thought you were just a misguided idealist, but you're a dangerous man...', et cetera. And I will reiterate - this time Bashir was not alone. Sloan was not expecting either O'Brien or Sisko to be in on Bashir's plan, if indeed he was expecting a plan at all.

He took into account that O'Brien was there--and what Bashir was clearly motivated to do: namely, "whatever it takes".

That, along with O'Brien, prompted Sloan to adapt in turn.


Also...frankly, it would make more sense for a spy, if he could, to effectively fake his death, if he were captutured--so that, after his body is "thrown out", he could "wake up" and go back to duty. And we know that in the Trek universe, ways of faking death completely exist (see, again, "The Nagus"). Section 31, with the resources at its disposal, would surely have access to such an advantage.

So was Trip, as far as "canon" was concerned. See: The Good That Men Do.

Novels and fanfiction are the two good reasons we have the distinction between Memory Alpha and Memory Beta; between canon and apocrypha.

I never bothered with novels or fanfiction.

I would say: one of the great qualities of TrekLit (and fanfic, by extention) is that it can tackle the big errors and questions one gets by watching canon. I'm sure the "real" reason Sloan didn't lock down the computer was either the writers "forgot" or that "the story wouldn't work otherwise". Of course, that gives a big "plot hole"--and a good explanation is required.

 

[naverhtrad]

The question still exists: Why didn't Sloan lock down the computer? Whether he knew he was being expected or not doesn't change the fact that he had locked down the comupter in "Inter Arna". He wasn't being expected, then.

Why didn't he lock it down, this time?

As for how he would know of Bashir having the means, etc.--Section 31 knew a heck of a lot about Bashir, as was seen in "Inquisition".

Further, wouldn't you think they would be keeping watch on him, after revealing their existance to him?

That first question has a very simple answer, and one far more in line with Sloan's character: he got cocky, and simply didn't bother. Sloan has, in spite of his having forsaken his entire identity, a very strong sense of pride in his own abilities and persuasiveness. Taking on Bashir as a 31 operative showed that Sloan was willing to take (and capable of taking) huge risks and go for huge, dramatic payoffs - again, see 'Inter Arma'.

See, Sloan making a tactical error is vastly more believable than this conspiracy theory that 31 planned to give the cure to the Founders all along. If they really had wanted to do so, there were certainly far easier ways of doing it - like handing the cure directly to Starfleet Intelligence, where some idealist might pick it up and... well, do exactly what Bashir did. That way, 31 doesn't have to sacrifice one of their best operatives, nor (assuming they knew Bashir had the equipment he did, as you seem to want to be the case) do they have to risk Bashir stealing and leaking all of the other skeletons in their closet.

Also...frankly, it would make more sense for a spy, if he could, to effectively fake his death, if he were captutured--so that, after his body is "thrown out", he could "wake up" and go back to duty. And we know that in the Trek universe, ways of faking death completely exist (see, again, "The Nagus"). Section 31, with the resources at its disposal, would surely have access to such an advantage.

That directly contradicts what we see on-screen, though.

Bashir noted that the suicide implant Sloan triggered was destroying his neural pathways. If he were just entering into a death-like trance or coma (as Zek had, where you'd only be checking for things like breathing, pulse, synaptic responses and so forth), that would not be happening. In order to actually fake death, you need to have some way of keeping the brain functional; obviously that was not what was happening in Sloan's case.

Of course, that gives a big "plot hole"--and a good explanation is required.

Only, this isn't a good explanation. It's a breathtakingly stupid one.

It has 31, at best, risking the life of one of their best operatives to hand over information which they had fought tooth-and-nail to keep secret for years; at worst, it has 31 compromising its entire cover and self-destructing for good. Now regardless of what one thinks of 31's motives, having been operating for over 200 years in the strictest possible secrecy, that is not something they would risk.

 

[Sci]

I've said everything I have to say about Section 31 and Sloan. But:

So was Trip, as far as "canon" was concerned. See: The Good That Men Do.

Novels and fanfiction are the two good reasons we have the distinction between Memory Alpha and Memory Beta; between canon and apocrypha.

I never bothered with novels or fanfiction.

You should give the novels a shot. Most of them are better than most of the canon, frankly.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^It happens roughly as often as a blue moon--or the underworld freezing over...but in this instance, Sci and I agree.

The question still exists: Why didn't Sloan lock down the computer? Whether he knew he was being expected or not doesn't change the fact that he had locked down the comupter in "Inter Arna". He wasn't being expected, then.

Why didn't he lock it down, this time?

As for how he would know of Bashir having the means, etc.--Section 31 knew a heck of a lot about Bashir, as was seen in "Inquisition".

Further, wouldn't you think they would be keeping watch on him, after revealing their existance to him?

That first question has a very simple answer, and one far more in line with Sloan's character: he got cocky, and simply didn't bother. Sloan has, in spite of his having forsaken his entire identity, a very strong sense of pride in his own abilities and persuasiveness. Taking on Bashir as a 31 operative showed that Sloan was willing to take (and capable of taking) huge risks and go for huge, dramatic payoffs - again, see 'Inter Arma'.

See, Sloan making a tactical error is vastly more believable than this conspiracy theory that 31 planned to give the cure to the Founders all along. If they really had wanted to do so, there were certainly far easier ways of doing it - like handing the cure directly to Starfleet Intelligence, where some idealist might pick it up and... well, do exactly what Bashir did. That way, 31 doesn't have to sacrifice one of their best operatives, nor (assuming they knew Bashir had the equipment he did, as you seem to want to be the case) do they have to risk Bashir stealing and leaking all of the other skeletons in their closet.

As to your last point--note Sloan's using that very thing as a bluff--which O'Brien caught onto.

As to "why not hand the cure over" where some idealist might pick it up--who knows what the idealist might do. Hand it over to the Founders, no questions asked?

As to his simply "getting cocky"--sorry, but he was already that, from the beginning. And yet...he did not make that mistake in "Inter Arna".

Also...frankly, it would make more sense for a spy, if he could, to effectively fake his death, if he were captutured--so that, after his body is "thrown out", he could "wake up" and go back to duty. And we know that in the Trek universe, ways of faking death completely exist (see, again, "The Nagus"). Section 31, with the resources at its disposal, would surely have access to such an advantage.

That directly contradicts what we see on-screen, though.

Bashir noted that the suicide implant Sloan triggered was destroying his neural pathways. If he were just entering into a death-like trance or coma (as Zek had, where you'd only be checking for things like breathing, pulse, synaptic responses and so forth), that would not be happening. In order to actually fake death, you need to have some way of keeping the brain functional; obviously that was not what was happening in Sloan's case.

As Bashir also noted, as early as "The Passenger": tricorders are good with "living" people--but not so much with "dead" ones.

For all we know, the implant shut down those brain funtions--and was able to "re-boot", when the time was right. I wouldn't be suprised, considering the apparently mega-photographic memory Sloan seems to have (as the "office" sequence indicates)...if Sloan himself was "enhanced", in some way--albeit, not as formally as Bashir.

As Bashir himself noted in "Extreme": One of the advantages to being genetically enhanced--is being able to control your own vital signs.

Of course, that gives a big "plot hole"--and a good explanation is required.

Only, this isn't a good explanation. It's a breathtakingly stupid one.

It has 31, at best, risking the life of one of their best operatives to hand over information which they had fought tooth-and-nail to keep secret for years; at worst, it has 31 compromising its entire cover and self-destructing for good. Now regardless of what one thinks of 31's motives, having been operating for over 200 years in the strictest possible secrecy, that is not something they would risk.

That, of course, is assuming that 31, and Sloan in particular, were in any real danger. After all--Sloan seemed to be in very real danger in the climax of "Inter Arna"--captured by the Tal Shiar, mind probes having (supposedly) torn through the barriers of his mind....

And yet--as it turns out, that hadn't been what really happened...after all.