Who knows about Section 31's involvement in the war?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I suppose it is possible that Sloan survived the events of "Extreme Measures" and was later recovered, but I guess we'll never know, unless some enterprising Treklit author decides to take up the slack.

The operative word being 'slack'. If Sloan was genetically enhanced like Bashir and the Jack Pack, wouldn't Section 31 have turned out to be more competent than we saw them be?

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Not that enhanced. I'd wager the enhancements in question were due to artificial implants.

 

[naverhtrad]

As to your last point--note Sloan's using that very thing as a bluff--which O'Brien caught onto.

The only way he could use that information as a bluff, of course, would be if he was actually dying. Seems to me as though in trying to patch up one plot-hole, you're opening up a dozen more.

As to "why not hand the cure over" where some idealist might pick it up--who knows what the idealist might do. Hand it over to the Founders, no questions asked?

Knowing Odo's suspicions of Starfleet and prior proclivities and associations with the Founders (he almost allowed the minefield to be taken down, after all), giving the cure to Bashir was tantamount to the exact same risk.

As to his simply "getting cocky"--sorry, but he was already that, from the beginning. And yet...he did not make that mistake in "Inter Arna".

Sloan has character flaws. He is not perfectly consistent. I am not seeing a problem here.

For all we know, the implant shut down those brain funtions--and was able to "re-boot", when the time was right. I wouldn't be suprised, considering the apparently mega-photographic memory Sloan seems to have (as the "office" sequence indicates)...if Sloan himself was "enhanced", in some way--albeit, not as formally as Bashir.

You see how many unfounded assumptions your pet theory is riding on? Even the Borg don't have the ability to 'reboot' the drones who have their organic functions shut down, and their knowledge of cybernetics is unmatched in the Star Trek universe. And if Sloan's eidetic memory was due to having cybernetic implants, those would have been detected by Bashir, who then wouldn't have buggered around with mind-probing - he could just have let Sloan die, removed the implant and simply downloaded the information he needed. (He didn't let Sloan die, of course, because Sloan dying meant that the cure would 'die with him'.) And that still puts 31 in the position of compromising every secret that Sloan knows!

That, of course, is assuming that 31, and Sloan in particular, were in any real danger. After all--Sloan seemed to be in very real danger in the climax of "Inter Arna"--captured by the Tal Shiar, mind probes having (supposedly) torn through the barriers of his mind....

How convenient, your having forgotten that the head of the Tal Shiar was a 31 operative - the entire situation was street theatre for the benefit of Bashir and the Romulan Senate, because both the Tal Shiar and 31 were in on it. (Of course, no mind probes were actually used on Sloan; or rather, if they were, they would have been feeding the Tal Shiar only the information that Koval wanted them to.)

You also seem to conveniently forget that Sloan was very effectively isolated from any 31 backup by Sisko, Bashir and O'Brien. No Chairman Koval or Admiral Ross to bail him out with a dramatic escape that time.

Seriously, if you didn't like what Section 31 did in 'Extreme Measures', then just come out and say so. This conspiracy theory simply has no leg to stand on.

 

[Rush Limborg]

As to your last point--note Sloan's using that very thing as a bluff--which O'Brien caught onto.

The only way he could use that information as a bluff, of course, would be if he was actually dying.

How so? It's a reverse psyhcology--a "double-bluff", if you will.

As to "why not hand the cure over" where some idealist might pick it up--who knows what the idealist might do. Hand it over to the Founders, no questions asked?

Knowing Odo's suspicions of Starfleet and prior proclivities and associations with the Founders (he almost allowed the minefield to be taken down, after all), giving the cure to Bashir was tantamount to the exact same risk.

Was Odo "suspicious" of Starfleet, by this point? No, I don't think so--frustrated at their methods and limitations, more appropriately.

And as far as his near-betrayal was concerned--remember, the Founder was able to "link" with him--and influence his mind. Two things:

1) Odo, aware of the consequences of allowing her to control him, would not be one to put himself in a position where he would do the same, again.

2) The Founder would not be able to link with him, due to the virus. It would all be on Odo's end.

Sloan has character flaws. He is not perfectly consistent. I am not seeing a problem here.

Well, I am--because that is far too big a mistake, and an inconsistency, to just chalk it up to "he forgot".

For all we know, the implant shut down those brain funtions--and was able to "re-boot", when the time was right. I wouldn't be suprised, considering the apparently mega-photographic memory Sloan seems to have (as the "office" sequence indicates)...if Sloan himself was "enhanced", in some way--albeit, not as formally as Bashir.

You see how many unfounded assumptions your pet theory is riding on? Even the Borg don't have the ability to 'reboot' the drones who have their organic functions shut down, and their knowledge of cybernetics is unmatched in the Star Trek universe.

"Unmatched"--and yet the Federation keeps finding ways to defeat the Borg via technology--the most interesting example being the paradox-virus Geordi and Data developed in "I, Borg".

And you say "for all we know". That's the problem, isn't it? Again, as Bashir himself once noted, tricorders aren't as good with "dead" people....

And if Sloan's eidetic memory was due to having cybernetic implants, those would have been detected by Bashir, who then wouldn't have buggered around with mind-probing - he could just have let Sloan die, removed the implant and simply downloaded the information he needed. (He didn't let Sloan die, of course, because Sloan dying meant that the cure would 'die with him'.) And that still puts 31 in the position of compromising every secret that Sloan knows!

Except Bashir was in a bit of a rush--too much to allow him to be in a position where he would be mapping Sloan's mind. If he'd had that kind of time (as far as he was concerned) he wouldn't have gone on that trek (as it were) through Sloan's mind

Besides--that is only one theory. Perhaps his memory was genetically enhanced, everything else left as is.

Either way--surely the fact that his memory is so detailed that he would know by heart details on current operations--and know so much that his "files" would encompass an entire room--surely that implies that something big was done to enhance his memory. No one has a detailed encyclopedic knowledge of that much.

That, of course, is assuming that 31, and Sloan in particular, were in any real danger. After all--Sloan seemed to be in very real danger in the climax of "Inter Arna"--captured by the Tal Shiar, mind probes having (supposedly) torn through the barriers of his mind....

How convenient, your having forgotten that the head of the Tal Shiar was a 31 operative - the entire situation was street theatre for the benefit of Bashir and the Romulan Senate, because both the Tal Shiar and 31 were in on it. (Of course, no mind probes were actually used on Sloan; or rather, if they were, they would have been feeding the Tal Shiar only the information that Koval wanted them to.)

You also seem to conveniently forget that Sloan was very effectively isolated from any 31 backup by Sisko, Bashir and O'Brien. No Chairman Koval or Admiral Ross to bail him out with a dramatic escape that time.

I've forgotten nothing of the kind--it is insulting of my intelligence that you would think I did. My point is, quite simply, that Sloan and 31 orchestrated events so that they appeared one way, and actually were being conducted in another.

 

[naverhtrad]

How so? It's a reverse psyhcology--a "double-bluff", if you will.

Naturally. A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Anything to prevent you from having to face the canonical reality that Sloan was dying.

Was Odo "suspicious" of Starfleet, by this point? No, I don't think so--frustrated at their methods and limitations, more appropriately.

Sure, we know that. Because we're viewers of the show and sympathise with Odo's perspective. And that brings up another point - if Sloan was there to give Odo the cure, why not go to him directly and administer it to him? Why footsy around with Bashir in the first place?

Well, I am--because that is far too big a mistake, and an inconsistency, to just chalk it up to "he forgot".

As noted, it is not an inconsistency at all. It is far more inside Sloan's character to make a mistake out of overconfidence, than to be party to such a completely ridiculous, overelaborate and foolhardy plan as you're suggesting 31 had.

And you say "for all we know". That's the problem, isn't it? Again, as Bashir himself once noted, tricorders aren't as good with "dead" people....

Sorry, but you're projecting. You have been saying 'for all we know' all this time. In fact, your entire premise has been one long string of them.

Except Bashir was in a bit of a rush--too much to allow him to be in a position where he would be mapping Sloan's mind. If he'd had that kind of time (as far as he was concerned) he wouldn't have gone on that trek (as it were) through Sloan's mind.

So you're saying that Starfleet medical technology is, on the one hand, not advanced enough to pick out cybernetic implants in charge of eidetic memory in a single scan (which we know is not true - see 'I, Borg', where a single tricorder scan was able to determine both that the implants were there and that they were damaged), but that it is advanced enough to allow two people to go brain-diving through another man's mind in a shorter space of time? Do you realise exactly how ridiculous and illogical you're sounding?

I've forgotten nothing of the kind--it is insulting of my intelligence that you would think I did. My point is, quite simply, that Sloan and 31 orchestrated events so that they appeared one way, and actually were being conducted in another.

a.) Let us just say that my opinion of your intelligence is not being helped by your actual argument, which is more of an insult than anything I have said thus far.

b.) That's a cheat. You're attributing godlike knowledge, foresight, telepathy and infinite resources to 31, to be able to execute such a plan. 31 are not Q. Koval wasn't there. Ross wasn't there. Sloan did not have the resources or the personnel to manufacture the same kind of escape; and even if he did, he would have had to go through or around Ezri, Sisko and Bashir's medical personnel.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Okay. Since most of your reply conists of the same kind of thing, I'll address all of that at once:

"For all we know"--conjecture--is an element in both our arguments. We won't know "what really happened" until a move/episode, or--more likely--a book comes out.

Just as The Good That Men Do addressed a BIG plot hole regarding Trip's death (or rather, a series of such holes in a rushed-together "finale")--we may require such an explanation. Because--like it or not--overconfidence does not explain why took a precaution one time, but not the other time.

Was Odo "suspicious" of Starfleet, by this point? No, I don't think so--frustrated at their methods and limitations, more appropriately.

Sure, we know that. Because we're viewers of the show and sympathise with Odo's perspective. And that brings up another point - if Sloan was there to give Odo the cure, why not go to him directly and administer it to him? Why footsy around with Bashir in the first place?

Except Bashir was in a bit of a rush--too much to allow him to be in a position where he would be mapping Sloan's mind. If he'd had that kind of time (as far as he was concerned) he wouldn't have gone on that trek (as it were) through Sloan's mind.

So you're saying that Starfleet medical technology is, on the one hand, not advanced enough to pick out cybernetic implants in charge of eidetic memory in a single scan (which we know is not true - see 'I, Borg', where a single tricorder scan was able to determine both that the implants were there and that they were damaged), but that it is advanced enough to allow two people to go brain-diving through another man's mind in a shorter space of time? Do you realise exactly how ridiculous and illogical you're sounding?

As I clearly said in my previous post--that was one possibility. What about a genetically enhanced memory, along with what Bashir referred to as--in that same episode--the ability to control one's own vital signs?

You're attributing godlike knowledge, foresight, telepathy and infinite resources to 31, to be able to execute such a plan. 31 are not Q. Koval wasn't there. Ross wasn't there. Sloan did not have the resources or the personnel to manufacture the same kind of escape; and even if he did, he would have had to go through or around Ezri, Sisko and Bashir's medical personnel.

Recall how seamlessly Sloan was able to move around the ship and the conference in "Inter Arna". Is it really that hard to believe that they've been keeping close tabs on Bashir on DS9? After all, you mentioned "Bashir's medical personell". Perhaps one of them should be looked at.

As it were--perhaps the reason he went to Bashir rather than someone else is, for all we know (yes, I use that phrase) Sloan did think there was a possibility that Bashir had hit a good lead on the cure. Or--and this is a big possibility--Sloan had a secondary agenda of encouraging Bashir to reconsider his refusal to join 31. After all, Sloan noted--before Bashir activated the force field, "I have an assignment for you."

 

[Thestral]

We won't know "what really happened" until a move/episode, or--more likely--a book comes out. Because--like it or not--overconfidence does not explain why took a precaution one time, but not the other time.

Mr. Ockham disagrees.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^"Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily"?

I doubt I'm doing that.

I also go by the axiom: "Contradictions don't exist in reality. If you see one, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."

As Bashir himself noted, in "Inter Arna": "Anyone clever enough to pull the wool so completely over my eyes, wouldn't have been caught by the Romulans so easily. There had to be another explanation."

By his own line of reasoning--and the fact that he decidedly does not have the resources of the Tal Shiar--there has to be another explanation for Sloan's easy capture.

 

[Sci]

There comes a point where complex schemes simply cease to be plausible. And the idea that human beings are not fallible or sometimes contradictory is just silly.

 

[Rush Limborg]

That's not what I said. I said that any "contradiction" comes from a premise that hasn't been analyzed thoroughly. Psychology is a science, like any other.

 

[horatio83]

I doubt I'm doing that.

Yes you are overcomplicating a simple issue. If you stick with the simple answer you are less likely to err.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Except the "simple" answer you would have me accept conflicts with Sloan's character--as Bashir himself noted, in "Inter Arma".

Again: "Anyone clever enough to pull the wool so completely over my eyes, wouldn't have been caught by the Romulans so easily. There had to be another explanation."

It'd be more reasonable that it were Bashir who was arrogant in his assumptions. In "Extreme," he was consumed with a desire for revenge against 31--and, in particular, Sloan, if his gloating tone and his swagger in the Infirmary sequence is any indication.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How convenient, your having forgotten that the head of the Tal Shiar was a 31 operative - the entire situation was street theatre for the benefit of Bashir and the Romulan Senate, because both the Tal Shiar and 31 were in on it. (Of course, no mind probes were actually used on Sloan; or rather, if they were, they would have been feeding the Tal Shiar only the information that Koval wanted them to.)

I doubt Koval was on the level. He was probably a double agent all along.

 

[naverhtrad]

How convenient, your having forgotten that the head of the Tal Shiar was a 31 operative - the entire situation was street theatre for the benefit of Bashir and the Romulan Senate, because both the Tal Shiar and 31 were in on it. (Of course, no mind probes were actually used on Sloan; or rather, if they were, they would have been feeding the Tal Shiar only the information that Koval wanted them to.)

I doubt Koval was on the level. He was probably a double agent all along.

Entirely possible. But in this case, if Koval were a double agent, allowing Sloan to die in his custody would rather have blown his cover.

There comes a point where complex schemes simply cease to be plausible. And the idea that human beings are not fallible or sometimes contradictory is just silly.

My entire point, summed up very concisely and neatly in two sentences.

 

[Rush Limborg]

How convenient, your having forgotten that the head of the Tal Shiar was a 31 operative - the entire situation was street theatre for the benefit of Bashir and the Romulan Senate, because both the Tal Shiar and 31 were in on it. (Of course, no mind probes were actually used on Sloan; or rather, if they were, they would have been feeding the Tal Shiar only the information that Koval wanted them to.)

I doubt Koval was on the level. He was probably a double agent all along.

Entirely possible. But in this case, if Koval were a double agent, allowing Sloan to die in his custody would rather have blown his cover.

First--Well, technically, Koval is already a "double agent" for Section 31, his "known" job being head of the Tal Shiar.

So...does that make him a..."triple agent"?

("Nah--just lied about being a double.")

Second--I'd wager, to ensure Koval's loyalty, 31 has something on him. See my fanfic on this site, "Of Mastery And Fate", which has my own theory on this.

There comes a point where complex schemes simply cease to be plausible. And the idea that human beings are not fallible or sometimes contradictory is just silly.

My entire point, summed up very concisely and neatly in two sentences.

And in the end, it says nothing. As I had replied:

That's not what I said. I said that any "contradiction" comes from a premise that hasn't been analyzed thoroughly. Psychology is a science, like any other.