Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

[Gabriel]

There's nothing wrong in saving the life of anyone as long as it's not at the expense of someone else. If your resuscitation depends on sacrificing someone else, someone who's unwilling to be sacrificed at that, I mean even if the person was willing I still think it would be wrong, like it is wrong to buy organs from living people who are so poor and desperate that they are willing to accept mutilation for a little money. If it's is wrong to do the latter and I believe it is, it is even more wrong to do that to an unwilling being. What Janeway did is just murder. It's cold-blooded premeditated murder! If there was any justice in Starfleet and there can't be because it is just a show and justice is just a fleeting incoherent thing in that context submitted to the vagaries of undeterminate writers. So if there was any justice in that fictional world she would incur the punishment for murder in the first degree with aggravated circumstances because she thought about it and did it in full knowledge and responsibility and using her power as a leader.

Doubt starfleet would really charge her with anything. I mean it would be very bad press. Also starfleet may agree with her because of the circumstances since it was thru the transporter. Also. Tuvok was a valuable officer and post dominion starfleet needs all the valuable people it can get. That doesn’t make it right but again I doubt she would ever get in trouble.
Starfleet would probably rule it justified homicide.


Also if tuvix was willing to under go the process (which should have been done in the episode)
Then there should be no problem with it. Just like with sim or anybody else who willing sacrifice themselves for their crew mates. I mean it is his life if he wants sacrifice himself or not, the choice is his.
Also buying organs is illegal and you can only volunteer to give them up, so you can’t sell them.

 

[Discofan]

Doubt starfleet would really charge her with anything. I mean it would be very bad press. Also starfleet may agree with her because of the circumstances since it was thru the transporter. Also. Tuvok was a valuable officer and post dominion starfleet needs all the valuable people it can get. That doesn’t make it right but again I doubt she would ever get in trouble.
Starfleet would probably rule it justified homicide.


Also if tuvix was willing to under go the process (which should have been done in the episode)
Then there should be no problem with it. Just like with sim or anybody else who willing sacrifice themselves for their crew mates. I mean it is his life if he wants sacrifice himself or not, the choice is his.
Also buying organs is illegal and you can only volunteer to give them up, so you can’t sell them.

We're talking at cross purposes.

 

[Makarov]

All I know is that if Picard were in the room he would have argued and won for Tuvix's rights and if he ever found out about it I think he would turn his back on Janeway

 

[Arpy]

Starfleet's bad press can go feverishly fornicate with Fek'lhr for all I care. If it's murder, Janeway should be prosecuted. Starfleet can take care of itself.

The organs thing is important. Imagine if you signed a contract to buy someone's heart in ten years for the sum of ten million dollars today. Some people would do it. I don't care if they're fully grown lucid adults – some things shouldn't be legal.

If Tuvix volunteered to give his life for others, even that I guess it problematic. One should give oneself a chance. But if someone is set on dying, there's nothing anyone can do to stop them. Tuvix chose to live a life.

 

[Elephant999]

All I know is that if Picard were in the room he would have argued and won for Tuvix's rights and if he ever found out about it I think he would turn his back on Janeway

Nice try about bringing this back to Picard and a Jellico again!

 

[Discofan]

As far as Riker is concerned he would definitely sacrifice Jellico's life... he would even donate his trombone if it would help...

 

[Elephant999]

We can live in hope of the trombone meeting a sticky end!

 

[Arpy]

Aww come on. I don’t think the Riker antipathy is such a thing. His eyebrows were raised by the appointment of another officer to the Enterprise chair, but I think he understood it went to the Cardassian expert. It was other stuff that set things off.

 

[Discofan]

Aww come on. I don’t need think the Riker antipathy is such a thing. His eyebrows were raised by the appointment of another officer to the Enterprise chair, but I think he understood it went to the Cardassians expert. It was other stuff that set things off.

Maybe, but it was more humorous to present things that way.

 

[Gabriel]

The organs thing is important. Imagine if you signed a contract to buy someone's heart in ten years for the sum of ten million dollars today. Some people would do it. I don't care if they're fully grown lucid adults – some things shouldn't be legal.

It is illegal. Well at least in the United States

 

[Gabriel]

Well Riker probably didn’t like that he was past up for the big chair. If he wanted the big chair so much he should have gotten his command. Frankly I always thought he was waiting for picard to retire.

 

[Arpy]

Well Riker probably didn’t like that he was past up for the big chair. If he wanted the big chair so much he should have gotten his command. Frankly I always thought he was waiting for picard to retire.

Yeah, this raises the question about Riker and why he stayed on board. All he wanted was a command, then he got multiple opportunities (U.S.S. Drake/Aries/Melbourne) but never took them. In reality, it's because Frakes was a series regular, but in-universe? I like to think that Riker realized how special an assignment that was he was on. That he had, in fact, found both meaningful work and, indeed, family. Frankly, I'm surprised he accepted command of the Titan, as he would have been a shoo in for the Enterprise once Picard retired.

Then again, Picard probably should have moved on to diplomacy at some point but had to turn into the Last Action Hero for the TNG movies.

Maybe an interesting scenario for NEM might have been if Captain Riker of the Enterprise-E was called to transport Ambassador Picard to Romulus for a peace-summit with (adult) clone Shinzon, things go Hell, first officer Data sacrifices himself for the ship, and Ambassador Worf comes in to save the day with Klingon reinforcements.

In the end, Geordi starts writing (per AGT), or (per VOY) angered by the loss of his best friend maybe, goes off to command his first small starship. Crusher, nearly losing Picard to his evil twin and having missed him away from the ship, decides to ask Picard to marry her. And Troi...is pregnant with Lwaxana Jr.? (Or Data Jr.?) I don't want to separate her and Riker when they're just finally together.

 

[ParkerGlyn]

Most people serving under Jellico would request a transfer eventually from being too stressed out. Maybe in the short-term he's better than Picard but people are more likely to remain onboard in the long-term with Picard because of the more relaxed atmosphere.

 

[Gabriel]

Most people serving under Jellico would request a transfer eventually from being too stressed out. Maybe in the short-term he's better than Picard but people are more likely to remain onboard in the long-term with Picard because of the more relaxed atmosphere.

So basically he runs a tighter ship. Which can be a good and bad thing

 

[Arpy]

So basically he runs a tighter ship. Which can be a good and bad thing

We're going to get into this again, but, no, he doesn't "run a tighter ship." He's actively stressing a ship to its breaking point burning it out before the action even begins.

Again, the main problem with the episode(s) is in the execution. Again, like Lieutenant Commander Troi's abysmal portrayal in "Disaster," (she doesn't know that the ship might blow up and she can't stand up to Ensign Ro??) "Chain of Command" shoots itself in the foot. But you cannot accept the point of the two-parter (Jellico's a dick) and how the episodes fit into the series as a whole (it's the same best crew in the universe that we've been cheering on every week and will continue to until series' end) without allowing for the reality that sometimes the show-makers just mess up in showing that. But you have to allow for that if what you're watching is going to make any sense.

 

[Gabriel]

We're going to get into this again, but, no, he doesn't "run a tighter ship." He's actively stressing a ship to its breaking point burning it out before the action even begins.

Again, the main problem with the episode(s) is in the execution. Again, like Lieutenant Commander Troi's abysmal portrayal in "Disaster," (she doesn't know that the ship might blow up and she can't stand up to Ensign Ro??) "Chain of Command" shoots itself in the foot. But you cannot accept the point of the two-parter (Jellico's a dick) and how the episodes fit into the series as a whole (it's the same best crew in the universe that we've been cheering on every week and will continue to until series' end) without allowing for the reality that sometimes the show-makers just mess up in showing that. But you have to allow for that if what you're watching is going to make any sense.

You know what I could probably argue with you for several more pages but let’s just agree to disagree because we probably will not change others each minds. Although I think we can both agree this episode could have better

 

[Elephant999]

Aww come on. I don’t think the Riker antipathy is such a thing. His eyebrows were raised by the appointment of another officer to the Enterprise chair, but I think he understood it went to the Cardassian expert. It was other stuff that set things off.

When Jellico first come onto the bridge, Riker’s whole posture, and body language combined with several eye rolls and “stink eye” towards Jellico suggests open annoyance and possibly insubordination.

 

[Discofan]

When Worf gave attitude to Data, he was put in his place immediately and told that he could be replaced. Data is obviously less understanding than Jellico. Plus Worf corrected himself immediately and apologized to Data. So Worf is more respectful of the chain of command than Riker.

That says a lot!

Remember that in Worf's culture when you disagree with your captain you kill him!

 

[Elephant999]

I agree. Riker, from the off, was hostile to Jellico, didn’t back him up in front of Geordi, and came across as a petulant child at times as he assumed he would be taking over command.

 

[Longinus]

Even though I think that Jellico is a mediocre captain at best, I think he is a great character. He is a good sort of flawed character; instead of being an edgy sociopath like many 'flawed characters' these days, he is genuinely a good guy, and honestly tries to do his best. It just is that how he is doing it might not be the best possible approach.

Also, I have to say Riker really doesn't come across any better in this episode. Whilst Jellico's methods are questionable, and he and other officers are perfectly correct to be worried and raise their concerns, Riker takes it way too personally. I mean sure, the new boss might be difficult, but perhaps for the sake of getting this really important mission accomplished it might be the best to not let your ego get on the way and try to get the shit done. His smug attitude in the end in particularly seems quite juvenile.