Spoilers Who is sympathetic to the Klingons?

[Charles Phipps]

I shouldn't be.

But I am.

I like the idea T'Kuvma and his buddies really are utterly misreading the Federation because they live in a galaxy where anyone saying "They come in peace" is just lying to get you sideways. I want to see more of their culture and am really sad they killed the poor bastard.

He seemed like an impressive villain in the making.

 

[Refuge]

I feel sorry for the targ critter.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I had absolutely no sympathy for T'Kuvma. He was a warmongering bastard who would have led his people to utter ruin if given the chance.

Here's hoping that Voq and his ilk won't take the bait.

That said, I loved Kol's line about putting T'Kuvma in his place. If there is any hope for the Empire, it lies in Kol. I hope we get to see him again.

And I also hope that...

Spoiler: Kenneth Mitchell's comments

Kol really is a member of the House of Kor

Because there's definitely story potential in that, as well.

 

[Awesome Possum]

You’ll find that most people, even our actual enemies in real life feel they are completely justified. Everyone is the hero of their own tale and no one is evil for the sake of being evil without some mental issue.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

You’ll find that most people, even our actual enemies in real life feel they are completely justified.

I'm sure they do feel that way. But that doesn't change the fact that sometimes people are just WRONG.

Just because somebody feels justified doesn't mean they actually are.

 

[Charles Phipps]

My view on the Klingon issue is I was very intrigued by the idea the Klingon Empire is in a Syrian kind of Civil War. We saw T'Kuvma was in a palace and is a member of a Great House but a bunch of random jackasses broke into it and beat him up because it's apparently degenerated into an anarchy. It's like Tasha Yarr's homeplanet or Gul Mandred's description of his childhood. Exploring the idea of the Klingon Empire as a poverty-stricken and civil war prone region would be a very topical way to handle it.

Even if charging into war with a much more prosperous nation is not the way to resolve it.

I admit, I always side with the Klingons over the Federation.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'm sure they do feel that way. But that doesn't change the fact that sometimes people are just WRONG.

Just because somebody feels justified doesn't mean they actually are.

That’s true. But no one is a mustache twirling villain. They think they’re doing the right thing, even if they have to delude themselves into thinking that. Humans have an amazing talent for self-deception.

 

[Charles Phipps]

That’s true. But no one is a mustache twirling villain. They think they’re doing the right thing, even if they have to delude themselves into thinking that. Humans have an amazing talent for self-deception.

I am hoping the Klingons get a bit more treatment than being Tolkien orcs, though. I'd like to see Klingons allied with the Federation during this war as well as those attacking for their own reasons.

I'm also not so sure what made T'Kuvma so impressive given. He can't be the first Klingon killed by the Federation.

Was it the fact he was shot in the back? Isn't that a dishonorable way to die?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I admit I might have found it easier to understand T'Kuvma's perspective if he didn't always talk like he had a mouth full of marbles.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I admit I might have found it easier to understand T'Kuvma's perspective if he didn't always talk like he had a mouth full of marbles.

I actually think they're speaking honest-to-Kahless Klingon from a dictionary--which means the poor bastards probably have to speak the dialogue phonetically.

Which is a big mistake because this is complicated religious and politics stuff that needs to be translated.

 

[Canjo]

I'm totally with T'Kuvma. Think of when the admiral says "when we're fighting, we're not talking". Would you want to live next to a powerful force that is this arrogant and condescending? The Federation says it is peaceful, but even if it's true now, how do the Klingons know it won't change? Also the Klingons can reasonably fear that Federation culture which is based on peace and cooperation will seep into the Empire and turn people away from their traditional fixation on battle and competition.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Was it the fact he was shot in the back? Isn't that a dishonorable way to die?

As near as I could figure, Voq didn't care HOW T'Kuvma died, only THAT he did. In death, TK became the martyr that Burnham feared he might be.

the admiral says "when we're fighting, we're not talking". Would you want to live next to a powerful force that is this arrogant and condescending?

How so? Anderson was right. When any two opposing forces are fighting, they AREN'T talking. You can't do both.

The Federation says it is peaceful, but even if it's true now, how do the Klingons know it won't change?

One word: Trust.

The Federation has earned the right to be trusted; the Klingons have not.

Also the Klingons can reasonably fear that Federation culture which is based on peace and cooperation will seep into the Empire and turn people away from their traditional fixation on battle and competition.

If the Klingons and the Federation stay away from each other, that can be reasonably assured not to happen.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'm totally with T'Kuvma. Think of when the admiral says "when we're fighting, we're not talking". Would you want to live next to a powerful force that is this arrogant and condescending? The Federation says it is peaceful, but even if it's true now, how do the Klingons know it won't change? Also the Klingons can reasonably fear that Federation culture which is based on peace and cooperation will seep into the Empire and turn people away from their traditional fixation on battle and competition.

Mind you, the Federation claims to come in peace but in this timeline has just finished a massive war with the Romulans and the Xindi (I feel so bad I thought so little of them I couldn't even remember their name and had to look them up). Its an expanionist hegomonic empire--it's just hegomonic empires spread via bread and circuses not lasers.

That's actually one of the biggest RL criticisms of Roddenberry's view in that he did have a very homogenized view of the future for a man who wanted to make a government celebrating diversity.

 

[Psion]

That’s true. But no one is a mustache twirling villain. They think they’re doing the right thing, even if they have to delude themselves into thinking that. Humans have an amazing talent for self-deception.

With respect, I'm sure that is a generalization. Given the range of human personalities, I am sure there are people who know they are 'the villain' and relish the opportunity to outwit and ultimately undermine society at large. They are narcissists, sure, and possibly sociopathic, but I think the notion that every evil villain thinks he's the good guy is a bland writing trope and a grand oversimplification.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ "Some people just want to sit and watch the world burn."

 

[Charles Phipps]

With respect, I'm sure that is a generalization. Given the range of human personalities, I am sure there are people who know they are 'the villain' and relish the opportunity to outwit and ultimately undermine society at large. They are narcissists, sure, and possibly sociopathic, but I think the notion that every evil villain thinks he's the good guy is a bland writing trope and a grand oversimplification.

Jordan Belfort declared himself a Bond villain in real life. Generally, though, most people in real life who commit crimes do it out of ideology (which they don't think is wrong) or out of greed/gain/anger in which they rarely CARE about the goodness or badness of the act.

 

[Psion]

Jordan Belfort declared himself a Bond villain in real life. Generally, though, most people in real life who commit crimes do it out of ideology (which they don't think is wrong) or out of greed/gain/anger in which they rarely CARE about the goodness or badness of the act.

I'd agree with that for most people, but I think there are others out there who, for one reason or another, can't integrate well with normal society, or choose not to integrate and find that it is easier or more fun to just do what they want. If they're sufficiently self-aware, they'll get past the need to justify their actions and accept the idea that they're not good.

Perhaps Charles Manson fits this mold? Or various political figures throughout history?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Well, for me, the only proper way to end the series is for the Klingons to bring the evil Federation to heel and drink bloodwine in Paris.

 

[Albinator]

I love these Klingons. So much more to them than "angry warrior race." They're a people struggling for an identity, on the verge of being made obsolete in a tumultuous galaxy headed towards peace.

 

[Psion]

Well, for me, the only proper way to end the series is for the Klingons to bring the evil Federation to heel and drink bloodwine in Paris.

Qapla'!