Who is Starfleet's biggest fizzle?

[kirkfan]

I went with Mayweather, not for anything reasonable, but for the act....ing....... The................ actin.......g

I don't know it's the acting. I think it's probably sub par writing: no character development for Travis and no screen time for the character. Just like TOS Uhura, she had wayyy to little to do in the series, while the new movies prove that she can be an interesting character. I also suspect that Chakotay is one of the worse characters and therefore boring.

I call that bad chemistry.

 

[Vanyel]

How about Gowron? He made it to the highest position in the Klingon Empire, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council, to dead because he lead the Klingon forces into defeats to make Martok look bad.

Yes, he's not Starfleet, but that is one hell of a fall.

 

[kirkfan]

How about Gowron? He made it to the highest position in the Klingon Empire, Chancellor of the Klingon High Council, to dead because he lead the Klingon forces into defeats to make Martok look bad.

Yes, he's not Starfleet, but that is one hell of a fall.

I think he's gone crazy. Maybe an intense paranoia due to his almost being killed by the Martok changeling. After that he must have become suspicious of every one around and it slowly drove him mad.

 

[MacLeod]

The difference being that McCoy is a hero and Wes is guilty of grievous offenses, twice. As a matter of law you don't draft delinquents, especially, I would imagine in Starfleet, with its high moral standards and all.

Let's see he was given a formal reprimand and had to resit his year in "The First Duty", so he served his punsiment. As for "Journey's End" as far as can be dertermined no charges were brought so in the eyes of the law he wasn't guilty of any offense. Besides how many times have we seen people violate Starfleet General Order One aka the Prime Directive and get away with it?

You could make a case that in Journey's End Picard knew what they were doing was wrong, relocating a people against they will is wrong, if they choose to accept the risks i.e being Cardassian subjects then that's their choice. But they still have the right to choose relocation or stay put.

The question is Wesley's act of insubordination plus his inflammatory harangue to the locals. He really stepped into it, that time. The matter of whether they were doing the right thing wasn't his to question, at least as far as a starfleet tribunal is concerned.

But the point is their was no tribunal, so in the eyes of the law he wasn't guilty of anything. And you aren't seriously arguing that Starfleet shouldn't question are we doing the right thing. Fast foward a few years later and we come across another forced relocation and Picard this time says this is wrong, what's the difference between Wes saying relocating the inhabitants of Dorvan V is wrong and Picard saying relocating the Ba'ku is wrong?

 

[kirkfan]

^These are two separate issues, Starfleet can't tolerate acts of insubordination by cadets whenever the captain is following orders issued by an admiral. For anyone who knows how a military system works it would create an intolerable precedent. If the captain can't count on the absolute loyalty of his subordinates especially the ones that are very low in the food chain then you may as well declare the end of starfleet altogether and replace it by a bunch of pirates or whatever. A military hierarchy would be more unstable than a house of card if anyone could think that he has a right to disobey orders whenever he feels like it. Imagine that a captain may have to ask someone to risk their lives or even do something that will most likely get themselves killed, imagine how much luck he would have to be obeyed if the person thought that they could just say no and no bad consequences would ever follow.

We're talking about a military like organisation not a bunch of clowns.

 

[MacLeod]

^By that logic Starfleet can't tolerate acts of insubortination by Captains whenever they are following orders issued by an Admiral. If we note Kirk was found guilty of insubortiunation and reduced in rank as a result, in the case of Wes there is no evidence that Starfleet brought charges against him, that being the case under the law he is not guilty of insubortination. Sure you can argue he acted in an insubortinate way and perhaps he did, but from a legal point of view you can't hold that against him unless he is convicted of that charge.

 

[The Wormhole]

...Ensign Ro. Dishonorably discharged, given a second chance, then stabs Picard and crew in the back and betrays them before leaving starfleet for good. I hate that character with a passion.

She's my write in. Though I enjoyed the character, she fits the title. Not only did she get a second chance, but she got it on the flag ship and the renowned Picard gave her that chance.

Actually, it's a bit weirder than that. When she was DS9's chief of security, she was a Bajoran Militia officer. When she does get reinstated in Starfleet, she's made DS9's commanding officer, a position she still holds in the current novel continuity.

So, if we took the novels seriously, Ro got reinstated twice after insubordination (without being demoted) and then promoted 3 times afterwards.

I don't knock the novels, but this one strains belief a bit.

After committing both insubordination and treason, there's no way StarFleet would let her back in, let alone promote her.

I can see the Bajoran militia recruiting her, because they don't have a history, and they hate Cardassians, but Starfleet would never trust her again.

Of course, one thing to keep in mind is that in novel continuity Starfleet does have a severe personnel shortage which might make them prone to forget someone's past just for the sake of having someone experienced. Although, if that were the case, you'd think they'd reinstate all disgraced officers, particularly the evil captains and admirals. Yet as of Takedown (which was only just published this past January) Ben Maxwell is still a disgraced former captain.

^this proves one thing, the novels are completely unreliable.

"Unreliable" might be a bit too strong. Granted it's pushing credibility from a realistic perspective, but it's also consistent with on screen Trek where main characters almost always have their sins pardoned, regardless how serious their crimes are.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

^By that logic Starfleet can't tolerate acts of insubortination by Captains whenever they are following orders issued by an Admiral. If we note Kirk was found guilty of insubortiunation and reduced in rank as a result, in the case of Wes there is no evidence that Starfleet brought charges against him, that being the case under the law he is not guilty of insubortination. Sure you can argue he acted in an insubortinate way and perhaps he did, but from a legal point of view you can't hold that against him unless he is convicted of that charge.

I think it's funny people in the 24th century look down their noses at Kirk for being insubordinate, but he was punished and reduced in rank. Picard disobeyed direct orders TWICE (leaving his posting of patrolling the Neutral Zone per Admiral Hayes during the Borg attack of Sector 001 and disobeying Admiral Dougherty's orders to leave the Briar Patch) and yet he still retains the rank of captain for Nemesis.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I think it's funny people in the 24th century look down their noses at Kirk for being insubordinate, but he was punished and reduced in rank. Picard disobeyed direct orders TWICE (leaving his posting of patrolling the Neutral Zone per Admiral Hayes during the Borg attack of Sector 001 and disobeying Admiral Dougherty's orders to leave the Briar Patch) and yet he still retains the rank of captain for Nemesis.

That's the power of perception. I've always had the impression that Kirk was perceived as damaged goods by the time TWOK/TSFS rolled around; his actions only solidified that belief, which is why so many who entered Starfleet after him characterized him as a maverick who couldn't follow orders.

--Sran

 

[Ithekro]

For Wesley is would be up to his commanding officer (Picard) to press the charges. Picard did no such thing, therefore Wesley is not found to be insubordinate by Starfleet for the matter on the Cardassian border.

Ro Laren. being part of the Bajoran militia attached to DS9 would not be subject to the issues of Starfleet. When Bajor joins the Federation and the militia gets intagrated, the local commanders would have to do what is logical. In this case, the former Bajoran militia XO is in position to take over as CO if the other former Bajoran militia CO steps down or is removed by whatever means. As this is Bajor, if Kira somehow leaves the posting, it falls to Ro. Ro's past record might cause friction with other posting and officers, but out on DS9? Being a former Maquis likely isn't a criminal offense after what happened during the war. I doubt any of Janeway's crew had any charges brought up against them base on them being Maquis.

 

[MacLeod]

^By that logic Starfleet can't tolerate acts of insubortination by Captains whenever they are following orders issued by an Admiral. If we note Kirk was found guilty of insubortiunation and reduced in rank as a result, in the case of Wes there is no evidence that Starfleet brought charges against him, that being the case under the law he is not guilty of insubortination. Sure you can argue he acted in an insubortinate way and perhaps he did, but from a legal point of view you can't hold that against him unless he is convicted of that charge.

I think it's funny people in the 24th century look down their noses at Kirk for being insubordinate, but he was punished and reduced in rank. Picard disobeyed direct orders TWICE (leaving his posting of patrolling the Neutral Zone per Admiral Hayes during the Borg attack of Sector 001 and disobeying Admiral Dougherty's orders to leave the Briar Patch) and yet he still retains the rank of captain for Nemesis.

Well in the case of FC, one could argue he was responding to a distress call from the fleet.

 

[kirkfan]

... "Unreliable" might be a bit too strong. Granted it's pushing credibility from a realistic perspective, but it's also consistent with on screen Trek where main characters almost always have their sins pardoned, regardless how serious their crimes are.

Don't tell me that they put Locarno back on the job.

 

[maneth]

Mayweather and Kim for me. Both had such potential, yet never amounted to much.

 

[kirkfan]

Mayweather and Kim for me. Both had such potential, yet never amounted to much.

It's hard to tell which one is the bigger flop.

 

[The Wormhole]

Indeed. Sure, you can point out Mayweather went a decade with no promotion, but then so did everyone else on the NX-01. Harry's excuse that being stranded in the Delta Quadrant limited promotion opportunities works until you factor in that crew losses should have created some room for advancement, and indeed Tuvok managed a promotion and Tom Paris got demoted and re-promoted a year later.

 

[kirkfan]

Indeed. Sure, you can point out Mayweather went a decade with no promotion, but then so did everyone else on the NX-01. Harry's excuse that being stranded in the Delta Quadrant limited promotion opportunities works until you factor in that crew losses should have created some room for advancement, and indeed Tuvok managed a promotion and Tom Paris got demoted and re-promoted a year later.

I suspect foul play there.

 

[trekshark]

Well you could basically argue every character from TOS except McCoy and sulu were duds. Kirk became an admiral but got busted back to captain. I know technically it was a "reward" but he could have been an admiral and still been in positions where he had to command a whole fleet of ships. And I'm sorry the military doesn't bust people in rank as a sign of thanks.

Spock became captain of the Enterprise. Turned it back to kirk, died, was reborn and apparently demoted back to first officer instead of getting another command.

Chekov became a first officer on reliant and then was apparently demoted back to his old job on the enterprise for no reason.

Scotty and uhura did essentially the same job all their careers despite being promoted in rank.

So that leaves McCoy and sulu. Mccoy was a doctor so despite the fact I'm sure there were some opportunities being a doctor your whole career is pretty common.

Sulu became captain of the excelsior. So he was really the only one who actually had a more important position after 25 years in uniform. Everyone else was doing the same thing or had been given bigger positions and then busted back to their old jobs for some reason.

I'd argue Spock did that by choice
Probably the same for Scotty, we know for sure he wanted to stay on the Enterprise in ST3 and only went over to the Excelsior because he was directly ordered to. The fact that he earned promotions the whole time shows he wasn't a dud.
Uhura would be similar

Chekov going from first officer back to navigator definitely was a negative, although he was given command in ST5 instead of Scotty while the team was on the planet which differed from the series where Scotty would be the one if kirk and spock were both off the ship

2. Lt. Saavik - U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 - seemingly groomed by Mr. Spock himself to ascend to the captain's chair, this young Vulcan failed the Kobayashi Maru test, then, after the death of Mr. Spock, resigned to a science officer posting on U.S.S. Grissom under the esteemed Captain J.T. Esteban, before ultimately saying "Fuck it," and quitting to live on Vulcan.

Kirk failed multiple times
the posting to the Grissom was actually a prestigious posting since that was the only ship allowed to go and study the Genesis planet

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Kirk and Picard get special treatment because Starfleet doesn't want to risk losing them on very sensitive missions. For all their high minded rhetoric Starfleet recognizes competence and tenure and for the most dangerous missions they don't want to risk an unproven leader.

Wesley gets special treatment because of nepotism.

 

[kirkfan]

Kirk and Picard get special treatment because Starfleet doesn't want to risk losing them on very sensitive missions. For all their high minded rhetoric Starfleet recognizes competence and tenure and for the most dangerous missions they don't want to risk an unproven leader.

Wesley gets special treatment because of nepotism.

What you call nepotism I call lack of coherence.

 

[Vanyel]

Indeed. Sure, you can point out Mayweather went a decade with no promotion, but then so did everyone else on the NX-01. Harry's excuse that being stranded in the Delta Quadrant limited promotion opportunities works until you factor in that crew losses should have created some room for advancement, and indeed Tuvok managed a promotion and Tom Paris got demoted and re-promoted a year later.

I suspect foul play there.

Paris "did" the Captain, so maybe that's how he got re-promoted.