Me.
Who else thinks that Star Trek II is the best?
- Thread starter startrekrcks
- Start date
When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was very redundant. I figured it was pretty much unanimous that "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" is the best of the Star Trek movies. I'm surprised by the criticism here. Personally it's my second favourite after "Star Trek: First Contact". I find it pretty much perfect, aside from the special effects that could have been better (I know that's because of budget limits, though, so it's not like the filmmakers were being lazy).
Despite the shoddy effects (which almost ruin the final showdown in the nebula for me), I think this is probably pound for pound the best-made Star Trek movie. "Star Trek: First Contact" has superior special effects and production design and its writing is almost just as good, it only lacks the poignancy and raw emotional power of Star Trek II's best scenes, like Kirk's conversations with McCoy at the beginning and with Spock at the end.
While I enjoyed the new Star Trek movie, halfway into it I realized that, "this movie isn't even a pimple on the ass of The Wrath of Khan and First Contact". Seriously. It's good and definitely looks slicker than either of them, but in terms of substance and quality of writing, it's not even in the same league.
Despite the shoddy effects (which almost ruin the final showdown in the nebula for me), I think this is probably pound for pound the best-made Star Trek movie. "Star Trek: First Contact" has superior special effects and production design and its writing is almost just as good, it only lacks the poignancy and raw emotional power of Star Trek II's best scenes, like Kirk's conversations with McCoy at the beginning and with Spock at the end.
While I enjoyed the new Star Trek movie, halfway into it I realized that, "this movie isn't even a pimple on the ass of The Wrath of Khan and First Contact". Seriously. It's good and definitely looks slicker than either of them, but in terms of substance and quality of writing, it's not even in the same league.
Outfits good enough that they decided to keep them for five subsequent films, plus TV appearances, unlike the pajama abortions.
Your declaration reminds me of Picard's "Not good enough, dammit, not good enough!". I agree, one area the original series movies were inferior to the TNG movies was in uniforms. The outfits in Star Trek II, III, V, and VI were too bulky, but they were an improvement over the ones in the first movie (although my plush of Kirk in that uniform is making it grow on me a bit 
). I think the TNG season 3-7 uniforms were lame and their movie uniforms were great, but the original series crew actually had better uniforms on TV. The TNG movies may have been more pleasing aethestically (in costumes AND special effects), but substance is more important than style!
I think one of the reasons they used the red outfits in TWoK onward was that they might have been more flattering to the physiques of the aging cast. But they looked more like something belonging to an Honor Harrington novel than Star Trek. Although in TWoK they still look in reasonable shape.
But they just don't look Star Trek to me. They don't look the least bit futuristic and convincing as everyday service wear.
But they just don't look Star Trek to me. They don't look the least bit futuristic and convincing as everyday service wear.
Yeah! TWOK is now on Netflicks streaming. I'm too lazy to get up and get the DVD from it's box. Just click,click and play.
Easily. It's the only one that treats human characters as human beings, flaws and all, with lives beyond being in the service, with the plot servicing the characters instead of the other way around. It's also a ripping enough yarn that 2003's Master and Commander seems to borrow liberally from it. The rest of the movies are pedantic, trivial, and cliched -- it's not perfect, but it's as close as any of the Star Trek movies get.
Im a great fan of Star Trek II, it's probably my favorite Trek film.
But I dont think Master and Commander is borrowing from it, plot elements of at least half a dozen Patrick O'Brien books yes, certainly not just 'Master and Commander' or 'The Far Side of the World', but the similarities come from the fact that Mayer was probably borrowing from them too, O'Briens books are certainly (imo) the best of the various naval novels such as C S Forester's Hornblower series, which are an admitted influence on Star Trek.
Using the "Surprise" (a la Enterprise) instead of the Sophie, the ambush and cagey escape early in the film (a la Kirk meeting Khan), the battle in the fog bank (a la the Battle in the Mutara Nebula), Aubrey's friendly but strained relationship with Maturin (a la Kirk's friendly but strained relationship with McCoy), the Surprise "hiding" at the island while effecting repairs and a landing party going ashore (a la the Enterprise staying on the other side of Regula while a landing party goes to the station and the planet), etc. I showed a class the scenes side by side, and they even noted it with chuckles, right down to Jack Aubrey walking from stern to stem checking damage and issuing orders and Kirk's virtually the same move on the bridge of the crippled Enterprise.
These are, of course, tropes in most naval warfare stories, though some are flipped (e.g., Aubrey suckering in the Acheron captain with what appears to be a helpless privateer; Khan attacking Kirk with what appears to be a friendly ship; Aubrey happily mentoring young officers for positions of authority; Kirk strainingly mentoring cadets like Saavik to be his replacement) but there are even cinematic similarities that go beyond the cherry picking of elements of O'Brien's novel series. I love Master and Commander and wish they would make a sequel but part of the reason is because it reminds me a great deal of Star Trek (moreso even than the Horatio Hornblower books), just 19th century style.
The similarities are only very superficial. The main themes of TWOK, Revenge, Old Age & Loss are entirely absent from The Far Side of the World. [Note Ill call it by its subtitle as its far closer to that book than Master and Commander, hence the use of Surprise rather than Sophie].
The commander of the Acheron bears no comparison to Khan at all, as hes a mere cypher untill the very end of the film. The similarities really only come down to the battle scenes. These you might say are reversed, the initial encounter in the fog aproximating the Battle of the Mutara Nebula and Aubrey's deception of being a whaler somewhat aproximating Enterprise's first encounter with Reliant. But if that is so then Surprise is Reliant, outmanevered in the fog [Nebula] and playing a harmless prize [friend] in order to decieve Acheron into a poor position.
Through most of the film Aubrey is the hunter (with the exception of the initial ambush, the second ambush at the start by Acheron results from Aubreys failure to have it the other way round.) he pursues Acheron to the Galabagos because he knows its a likely place to find it, not from any desire to escape. On the other hand Kirk is definately the hunted until the Enterprise enters the Mutara Nebula.
The general trend of of our Heroes caught flat footed, then repairing, then turning the tables holds true. How much of that can be said to be from TWOK rather than just good cinema I cant say. Master and Commander would have been very tedious without the initial encounter, to be pursuing an unseen ship for an hour and a half!
The commander of the Acheron bears no comparison to Khan at all, as hes a mere cypher untill the very end of the film. The similarities really only come down to the battle scenes. These you might say are reversed, the initial encounter in the fog aproximating the Battle of the Mutara Nebula and Aubrey's deception of being a whaler somewhat aproximating Enterprise's first encounter with Reliant. But if that is so then Surprise is Reliant, outmanevered in the fog [Nebula] and playing a harmless prize [friend] in order to decieve Acheron into a poor position.
Through most of the film Aubrey is the hunter (with the exception of the initial ambush, the second ambush at the start by Acheron results from Aubreys failure to have it the other way round.) he pursues Acheron to the Galabagos because he knows its a likely place to find it, not from any desire to escape. On the other hand Kirk is definately the hunted until the Enterprise enters the Mutara Nebula.
The general trend of of our Heroes caught flat footed, then repairing, then turning the tables holds true. How much of that can be said to be from TWOK rather than just good cinema I cant say. Master and Commander would have been very tedious without the initial encounter, to be pursuing an unseen ship for an hour and a half!
Char Aznable
Lieutenant Commander
I can not fathom how anyone can prefer the ugly, plain, unimaginative camel-toe uniforms from TMP to the TWOK-TUC uniforms. I mean, Kirk's Abmiral one in the beginning was good and I'd have been happy if they were simply variations of that. But, no, we get Kirk putting on that boring shortsleeve shit!
Never said it was a remake, and superficial or not, the script for 2003's Master and Commander has enough similarities to see the influence. There are too many to simply discount that consciously or not, the filmmakers mimic a lot of Star Trek II.
