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Who else thinks that Star Trek II is the best?

Star Trek II is not my favorite of the films, but it is still one I consider the best. It's easy to ignore the levels in the story and focus on the plot holes and logic errors, but I've always appreciated the depth of the story. As much as everyone says "it's the movie where Spock dies," it's not about that. And anyone who says "it works fine without it, Spock's death was tacked on," misses the point. It's not about Spock, his death, or even so much the progression of the character (even though that is an important subplot). It's not about Khan and his vengeance. It's about Kirk. It's his story. At 50 and a desk bound Admiral, he is depressed with no direction in his life. He feels the best years are well behind him and he has nothing meaningful left to accomplish . He is old, played out, done. Even on the training mission, where he should be happy, he is surrounded by youth reminding him that the future is theirs.

All he has left are the people in his life, Spock and Bones most importantly. They represent his past, his better years, and he is focused on nostalgia, having acquired an interest in antiques. He sees no joy in his future, so he romanticizes the past. And that past catches up with him all at once.

Khan, burning with vengeance, escapes and hunts Kirk. Ages and years of planet bound service have dulled his reactions, and Khan gets the jump on him. Disgusted with himself, Kirk's resolve strengthens and he starts finding the old skills, playing a bluff and buying time. Then he meets an old flame, as well as the son he never knew. The son who hates him. Now even his past has turned on him, and that's left is survival. By the time he is ready to beam up, the soldier is back at the top of his game. The past and future have made way for the present, and it's in the moment that Kirk lives most fully. In full command, he defeats Khan. Then, he suffers a crippling blow with the death of his closest friend. Yet Spock gave his life to save the crew, his friend, and the one thing that Kirk was missing for years: his beloved vessel. Spock's own growth, his last act of humanity, preserved Kirk's future and demonstrated that, even in advanced age, you have a purpose, you are still necessary.

At the end of the film, Kirk reconciles with his son, and they look toward building a new relationship. He has faced the odds and won, and confirmed Spock's belief that captaining a starship is what Kirk was born to do. For the first time in years, Kirk has regained his lust for life, and feels young. He mourns the loss of his friend, but that loss made tomorrow possible. And what he lost was balanced by everything he gained. He can now embrace his past, enjoy the present, and warmly anticipate the future. It's a very natural and subtle character arc. By the time Kirk says his final line, you can see he is at peace.

Two years later, this is somewhat undone by putting Kirk back in a state of directionless mourning. Much as I love TSFS, it dulls the impact of the meaning of TWOK, and all of the emotional resonance in III is surface. TWOK has all of this below the surface; you could enjoy it on this level or simply as a tale of revenge and adventure. There's a reason why the TNG guys kept trying to duplicate TWOK. Yet they never really got why Khan succeeded and they failed: they used all of the trappings, but none of the depth. Having a "personal nemesis" and "the death of a popular character" was not the reason why TWOK succeeds. Data's death did nothing but save lives, and he was Geordi's best friend, not Picard's. Data learned nothing different from whatever he already knew. Spock's death restored life and gave meaning to it. Spock's sacrifice was a vital step in his own personal growth. Data just went over and took Picard's place.

Whether or not one likes the direction of TWOK, the story was well thought out and realized. It was always more than the sum of its parts, the most mature and adult film in the series. It's the perfect film to show to non-fans, as experience with Trek is unnecessary. It's all laid out in the screenplay. You didn't need to know what Romulans or Klingons were, the in-jokes were minimal to non existent. Actually, the film works BETTER without any real connection to the film. You can then ignore continuity gaffes.

The Wrath of Khan is to Trek was Empire Strikes Back was to Star Wars.
 
He was brilliant in "Space Seed." In TWoK...not so much.

So crazily over the top, it really works for me. Quoting Moby Dick - hilarious, fun Hollywood moviemaking.

Christopher Plummer quoting the Bard later . . . just goofy. Once was enough.

I really think Kahn is a great MOVIE, totally aside from Trek movie. Hollywood is best when it does fun, with some intelligence and character (Kirk's aging and rebirth). Great flick.

(Yes, O Warped One, it WAS a definite rebooting of Trek, to address an earlier post of yours. I'll definitely grant you that. The whole 64-79 thing makes more and more sense to me. But I like the Star Trek movies too. But never watch them. Just posted a thread about that on TOS board.)
 
I think one of the reasons they used the red outfits in TWoK onward was that they might have been more flattering to the physiques of the aging cast. But they looked more like something belonging to an Honor Harrington novel than Star Trek. Although in TWoK they still look in reasonable shape.

But they just don't look Star Trek to me. They don't look the least bit futuristic and convincing as everyday service wear.

They're obviously meant to be retro, not futuristic, reminiscent of 19th century military tunics. This is a navy movie. Not sure if Meyer had uniform say, but his TUC is even more militaristic: the crew "racks" (bunk beds) and all the talk of Starfleet folding since there was no Klingon enemy anymore. That movie bugs me more and more for taking Trek so military.

Back to the AWESOME maroon unis, I don't think they would be used to slim, as red is a color that draws your eye, so sayeth a set decorator doubling as a house stager. Navy blue - o BABY would that have looked sweet, by the way -- would've been way slimminger.

Nichelle could've kept a navy blue uni ON while doing her fan-dang-o in TFF, even!
 
^^ Because conceptually it's more consistent with what came before than the British "changing-of-the-guard" outfits of TWOK.
Take away the jackets -- which themselves close with a flap over the chest like the original field jacket -- and they are essentially the uniforms of The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before.
 
Star Trek II is not my favorite of the films, but it is still one I consider the best. It's easy to ignore the levels in the story and focus on the plot holes and logic errors, but I've always appreciated the depth of the story. As much as everyone says "it's the movie where Spock dies," it's not about that. And anyone who says "it works fine without it, Spock's death was tacked on," misses the point. It's not about Spock, his death, or even so much the progression of the character (even though that is an important subplot). It's not about Khan and his vengeance. It's about Kirk. It's his story. At 50 and a desk bound Admiral, he is depressed with no direction in his life. He feels the best years are well behind him and he has nothing meaningful left to accomplish . He is old, played out, done. Even on the training mission, where he should be happy, he is surrounded by youth reminding him that the future is theirs.

All he has left are the people in his life, Spock and Bones most importantly. They represent his past, his better years, and he is focused on nostalgia, having acquired an interest in antiques. He sees no joy in his future, so he romanticizes the past. And that past catches up with him all at once.

Khan, burning with vengeance, escapes and hunts Kirk. Ages and years of planet bound service have dulled his reactions, and Khan gets the jump on him. Disgusted with himself, Kirk's resolve strengthens and he starts finding the old skills, playing a bluff and buying time. Then he meets an old flame, as well as the son he never knew. The son who hates him. Now even his past has turned on him, and that's left is survival. By the time he is ready to beam up, the soldier is back at the top of his game. The past and future have made way for the present, and it's in the moment that Kirk lives most fully. In full command, he defeats Khan. Then, he suffers a crippling blow with the death of his closest friend. Yet Spock gave his life to save the crew, his friend, and the one thing that Kirk was missing for years: his beloved vessel. Spock's own growth, his last act of humanity, preserved Kirk's future and demonstrated that, even in advanced age, you have a purpose, you are still necessary.

At the end of the film, Kirk reconciles with his son, and they look toward building a new relationship. He has faced the odds and won, and confirmed Spock's belief that captaining a starship is what Kirk was born to do. For the first time in years, Kirk has regained his lust for life, and feels young. He mourns the loss of his friend, but that loss made tomorrow possible. And what he lost was balanced by everything he gained. He can now embrace his past, enjoy the present, and warmly anticipate the future. It's a very natural and subtle character arc. By the time Kirk says his final line, you can see he is at peace.

Two years later, this is somewhat undone by putting Kirk back in a state of directionless mourning. Much as I love TSFS, it dulls the impact of the meaning of TWOK, and all of the emotional resonance in III is surface. TWOK has all of this below the surface; you could enjoy it on this level or simply as a tale of revenge and adventure. There's a reason why the TNG guys kept trying to duplicate TWOK. Yet they never really got why Khan succeeded and they failed: they used all of the trappings, but none of the depth. Having a "personal nemesis" and "the death of a popular character" was not the reason why TWOK succeeds. Data's death did nothing but save lives, and he was Geordi's best friend, not Picard's. Data learned nothing different from whatever he already knew. Spock's death restored life and gave meaning to it. Spock's sacrifice was a vital step in his own personal growth. Data just went over and took Picard's place.

Whether or not one likes the direction of TWOK, the story was well thought out and realized. It was always more than the sum of its parts, the most mature and adult film in the series. It's the perfect film to show to non-fans, as experience with Trek is unnecessary. It's all laid out in the screenplay. You didn't need to know what Romulans or Klingons were, the in-jokes were minimal to non existent. Actually, the film works BETTER without any real connection to the film. You can then ignore continuity gaffes.

The Wrath of Khan is to Trek was Empire Strikes Back was to Star Wars.
Excellent.
 
I have been watching TWOK and it just blows me away it's just so good anyway what are your thoughts on this superb Star Trek movie.

It is one of the better Star Trek movies, I'm watching it right now :) I don't know if it's the "best" but it is one of the better ones.
 
Christopher Plummer quoting the Bard later . . . just goofy. Once was enough.

I disagree. Yes, it was basically Meyer reusing the same joke and the novelty and freshness wasn't there the second time, but I still believe it worked. I know it did because when Plummer looked at the viewscreen and said "To be or not to be!" with complete conviction as he realized he was seconds from his doom, I laughed more than I ever have at something in a Star Trek movie. :hugegrin:

It was awesome, and Khan's "Moby Dick" quoting was just as fun. I know it annoyed the hell out of Gene Rodenberry, but I still thought it was fantastic. I think my favourite line from Khan is "buried alive!", though, just because of that delightfully over-the-top whisper Montalban says it in.
 
It's my favorite of the TOS movies, but one thing I really noticed the last time I watched is how much of a limited budget they must have had. The bridge of the Reliant almost looks like a high school stage play at times.
 
Just streamed it on Netflix. Too lazy to get out my DVD copy. Except for some dialog issues I thought it was perfect. One odd bit. When the bridge of Reliant gets hit at the end of the final battle; why is everyone standing in front of the bridge section that blows up? Everyone else is on the floor dead or dying. Maybe Khan was giving his women a goodbye hug.
 
In "Space Seed" he comes across as arrogant, which of course he's supposed to be. He's an exaggeration of that attitude of "I'm smarter and better than anyone else around me" that he can't even consider that someone else can better him in some way or other.

The chain of events that leads up to him taking over the TOS E is barely plausible. But the chain of events that leads up to him taking over the Reliant beggars belief.

Yeah that’s why Kirk beat him several times.

Once in Space Seed!

Several times in “Wrath of Khan” was disabling the shields so they can have few pot shots, on the Reliant.

Once, again fooling Khan that he was stuck lifeless moon.

Once again fooling, Khan, by manoeuvring around the nebula, in three-dimensional way. Khan thinks in a two-dimensional pattern, so the Enterprise has the advantage of wining the battle.

Sure Khan was disgruntled and had every reason to be sorely pissed off with Kirk.

I was confused when I first saw Star Trek II I saw it twice at the ABC Bournemouth screen 1, when it played. Not sure if it was 70mm print? I did see it in 70mm some years later at London’s Empire Leicester Square in 70mm Dolby stereo THX! Out of this world it was!:bolian:
 
Star Trek II is not my favorite of the films, but it is still one I consider the best. It's easy to ignore the levels in the story and focus on the plot holes and logic errors, but I've always appreciated the depth of the story. As much as everyone says "it's the movie where Spock dies," it's not about that. And anyone who says "it works fine without it, Spock's death was tacked on," misses the point. It's not about Spock, his death, or even so much the progression of the character (even though that is an important subplot). It's not about Khan and his vengeance. It's about Kirk. It's his story. At 50 and a desk bound Admiral, he is depressed with no direction in his life. He feels the best years are well behind him and he has nothing meaningful left to accomplish . He is old, played out, done. Even on the training mission, where he should be happy, he is surrounded by youth reminding him that the future is theirs.

All he has left are the people in his life, Spock and Bones most importantly. They represent his past, his better years, and he is focused on nostalgia, having acquired an interest in antiques. He sees no joy in his future, so he romanticizes the past. And that past catches up with him all at once.

Khan, burning with vengeance, escapes and hunts Kirk. Ages and years of planet bound service have dulled his reactions, and Khan gets the jump on him. Disgusted with himself, Kirk's resolve strengthens and he starts finding the old skills, playing a bluff and buying time. Then he meets an old flame, as well as the son he never knew. The son who hates him. Now even his past has turned on him, and that's left is survival. By the time he is ready to beam up, the soldier is back at the top of his game. The past and future have made way for the present, and it's in the moment that Kirk lives most fully. In full command, he defeats Khan. Then, he suffers a crippling blow with the death of his closest friend. Yet Spock gave his life to save the crew, his friend, and the one thing that Kirk was missing for years: his beloved vessel. Spock's own growth, his last act of humanity, preserved Kirk's future and demonstrated that, even in advanced age, you have a purpose, you are still necessary.

At the end of the film, Kirk reconciles with his son, and they look toward building a new relationship. He has faced the odds and won, and confirmed Spock's belief that captaining a starship is what Kirk was born to do. For the first time in years, Kirk has regained his lust for life, and feels young. He mourns the loss of his friend, but that loss made tomorrow possible. And what he lost was balanced by everything he gained. He can now embrace his past, enjoy the present, and warmly anticipate the future. It's a very natural and subtle character arc. By the time Kirk says his final line, you can see he is at peace.

Two years later, this is somewhat undone by putting Kirk back in a state of directionless mourning. Much as I love TSFS, it dulls the impact of the meaning of TWOK, and all of the emotional resonance in III is surface. TWOK has all of this below the surface; you could enjoy it on this level or simply as a tale of revenge and adventure. There's a reason why the TNG guys kept trying to duplicate TWOK. Yet they never really got why Khan succeeded and they failed: they used all of the trappings, but none of the depth. Having a "personal nemesis" and "the death of a popular character" was not the reason why TWOK succeeds. Data's death did nothing but save lives, and he was Geordi's best friend, not Picard's. Data learned nothing different from whatever he already knew. Spock's death restored life and gave meaning to it. Spock's sacrifice was a vital step in his own personal growth. Data just went over and took Picard's place.

Whether or not one likes the direction of TWOK, the story was well thought out and realized. It was always more than the sum of its parts, the most mature and adult film in the series. It's the perfect film to show to non-fans, as experience with Trek is unnecessary. It's all laid out in the screenplay. You didn't need to know what Romulans or Klingons were, the in-jokes were minimal to non existent. Actually, the film works BETTER without any real connection to the film. You can then ignore continuity gaffes.

The Wrath of Khan is to Trek was Empire Strikes Back was to Star Wars.

A thousand accolades to your excellent post. You've put my inner thoughts into words in better fashion than I could've accomplished.

The Wrath of Khan has philosophy, poignancy, and heart.
 
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