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White Makes Right

It is, but the phrase "absent other factors" is convenient. It's upsetting to nearly no one that physically small NFL coaches are rare, yet the development system that produces NFL coaches inhibits the ability of those persons to advance to a head coaching position, despite them being, in theory, equally able to coach. Is that structural inhibition a factor to be absented, or a systemic problem?

(Or are small coaches excluded because they aren't taken seriously on the basis of something they can't help, but which wouldn't inhibit their job performance, excepting the reactions of prejudiced players and staff? We don't consider smallness a racial characteristic, despite its heritability, association with ancestry, and propensity to be met with prejudice, but discrimination because of size where it doesn't matter is the same evil as racism.)

a) I'm pretty sure you just made that up about "small NFL coaches" but I don't know enough about the NFL and/or am too lazy to research it, especially since
b) it's a pointless argument unless there had been a history of discrimination against small people in NFL coaching staff

You admit racism played a role, so what's your problem with making the owner at least consider hiring black people?

What I meant with "other factors" is for example that that social group in general may be less interested in a specific job than others. For example there are very few black athletes in Winter Olympics. Is it discrimination or do black people due to cultural and/or simply climate conditions in their home countries choose to compete in different sports? The latter is not far-fetched in this case, but clearly it's nonsense in American Football.

But, again, I think you've misunderstood Mr. B. He doesn't say that there is no racial problem. He says that the problem isn't that there have been - and are - few "black" coaches, but that prejudice is affecting hiring decisions - it is the reason that we see and have seen so few.

I don't think that's what he meant at all, but if it is it would be a reason to institute a stronger affirmative action system, and not abolishing the Rooney Rule.
 
a) I'm pretty sure you just made that up about "small NFL coaches" but I don't know enough about the NFL and/or am too lazy to research it, especially since
b) it's a pointless argument unless there had been a history of discrimination against small people in NFL coaching staff

You admit racism played a role, so what's your problem with making the owner at least consider hiring black people?

What I meant with "other factors" is for example that that social group in general may be less interested in a specific job than others. For example there are very few black athletes in Winter Olympics. Is it discrimination or do black people due to cultural and/or simply climate conditions in their home countries choose to compete in different sports? The latter is not far-fetched in this case, but clearly it's nonsense in American Football.

My problem is with the idea that there is such a thing as a "black person." There isn't, not any more than a person is defined by being sharp-canine toothed or wide-canine toothed. There is no such thing as race, and we should never act as though there is.

I think that every effort should be made to cause the owners to hire persons without regard to physical prejudice.

There is some discrimination against small coaches (which also affects female, who are generally smaller than NFL players, but who also encounter other prejudice in football), but that discrimination is caused largely by the frequent prerequisite of high-level football playing experience among football coaches. Smaller persons play very little organized football - for obvious reasons - but playing experience at high levels is not necessarily requisite to coaching excellence.

I don't think that's what he meant at all, but if it is it would be a reason to institute a stronger affirmative action system, and not abolishing the Rooney Rule.

I think that depends on the definition of affirmative action system. Any method that perpetuates physical prejudice - racial or otherwise - is unjust, and shouldn't be pursued. The phrase "Affirmative action" originated with President Kennedy, who used it to refer to his policy of "nondiscrimination," which rested on the cornerstone of treatment "without regard to race, creed, color, or national origin."

Affirmative action as represented by the Rooney Rule is incompatible with nondiscrimination, because it unjustly regards the construct of "race." A moral hiring process does not consider any form of physical prejudice - nor, indeed, any form of prejudice based in national origin or any other immutable factor.
 
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My problem is with the idea that there is such a thing as a "black person." There isn't, not any more than a person is defined by being sharp-canine toothed or wide-canine toothed. There is no such thing as race, and we should never act as though there is.

I agree that there's no such thing as races in humans, but racism is real; and if you just ignore the racists win.

I think that every effort should be made to cause the owners to hire persons without regard to physical prejudice.

There is some discrimination against small coaches (which also affects female, who are generally smaller than NFL players, but who also encounter other prejudice in football), but that discrimination is caused largely by the frequent prerequisite of high-level football playing experience among football coaches. Smaller persons play very little organized football - for obvious reasons - but playing experience at high levels is not necessarily requisite to coaching excellence.

Ok, I can see that; similar dynamics certainly play a role in soccer, although often the best coaches haven't been good players at all.
 
My problem is with the idea that there is such a thing as a "black person." There isn't, not any more than a person is defined by being sharp-canine toothed or wide-canine toothed. There is no such thing as race, and we should never act as though there is.

I agree that there's no such thing as races in humans, but racism is real; and if you just ignore the racists win.

Certainly. But well-designed systems can be - and have been - developed to combat physical prejudice without adopting it. The Air Force no longer uses photographs when considering promotions, some employers mask names from applicant files (because certain names are associated with certain racial identities), the Department of Homeland Security hires personnel through an online hiring process that is indifferent to concepts of race - there are many options that can go far toward inhibiting the effects of physical prejudice.

(Of course, these systems do nothing to defeat systemic problems at lower levels; the DHS has been criticised for the results of its non-discriminatory hiring practices.)
 
It is, but the phrase "absent other factors" is convenient. It's upsetting to nearly no one that physically small NFL coaches are rare, yet the development system that produces NFL coaches inhibits the ability of those persons to advance to a head coaching position, despite them being, in theory, equally able to coach. Is that structural inhibition a factor to be absented, or a systemic problem?

(Or are small coaches excluded because they aren't taken seriously on the basis of something they can't help, but which wouldn't inhibit their job performance, excepting the reactions of prejudiced players and staff? We don't consider smallness a racial characteristic, despite its heritability, association with ancestry, and propensity to be met with prejudice, but discrimination because of size where it doesn't matter is the same evil as racism.)

Like most major professional team sports in the US (and Canada in the case of the NBA/MLB/NHL), the coaching ranks of the NFL are made up primarily of former players of that sport. The NFL is actually unique (compared with MLB, the NBA, and the NHL where the majority of coaches/managers are former pros) in that only five of its current coaches had actual professional careers (though two more were replacement players). Nonetheless all but one (Todd Haley of Kansas City) of the current crop of 32 coaches played at least college-level football.

As you would expect, with the exception of kickers, most current and former football players are pretty big guys. A 2005 ESPN article said that at the time the average height of an NFL player was about six feet and the average weight was about 248 pounds. Those height and weight numbers are only increasing as time goes on. This isn't bias against short people for some factor that doesn't affect game play (like skin color), it's basic survival in a sport where an average-sized 5'11'', 199 lb. Defensive Back at speed can hit you with 1600 pounds of force. Tallness also has an advantage in being able to see/throw/catch/jump over and have a longer stride than other players.

Height is also not one of the protected classes in federal anti-discrimination law, while race is.

Furthermore, while shortness is not common in the NFL (though not unheard of), being a minority (especially black) is. It is that disparity between the number of minority players and the lack of minority coaches that the Rooney Rule was established to address, and in that regard it has done remarkably well with there now being 22% black coaches versus where it began in 2003 at 6% (which is where the percentage of minority coaches in college football still remains; and why they are considering a Rooney Rule for college football as well).

So until you can show that there are a largely disproportional number of short players versus short coaches in the NFL, it's a pretty silly argument.

I would suppose that there are two problems: racism and educational imbalance (itself caused largely by racism, both historical and current).
Unlike some other pro sports, the NFL does not allow players to be drafted straight out of high school. They are not required to attend a university, but they do have to wait a minimum of three years from their high school graduation to play in the NFL, and most do choose to pursue a college football career (and education) in order to bulk up, stay in condition, and build experience. Once in college they can be drafted to the pros, however (but still only three years after high school graduation, so they usually get at least a few years of college education).

Currently, 46% of NFL players have college degrees, but the NFL encourages those without degrees to continue their studies while in the NFL in the Player Development Program (started in 1991) to prepare them for life after their NFL careers are over, so many of them do go on to get degrees while playing in the pros. However, most college-level players who choose to go into coaching regardless of skin color prepare for that while at university and thus continue on to achieve their degrees. It's a very different career path for most NFL coaches (who often have mediocre playing careers) from that of players. Whether you go into coaching or playing the opportunities, expectations, and resources exist to finish high school and get some college education and possibly a degree both before or during your pro career.

But, again, I think you've misunderstood Mr. B. He doesn't say that there is no racial problem. He says that the problem isn't that there have been - and are - few "black" coaches, but that prejudice is affecting hiring decisions - it is the reason that we see and have seen so few.
Affirmative Action or the Rooney Rule in and of themselves can't force people to change their minds and stop racism; nor were they intended to (however it can sometimes have a positive effect on racism by forcing bigots to work alongside the people they looked down on or isolated themselves from). They were meant solely to address inequities in hiring practices that occur as a result of racism, not racism itself.

No one is being given preferential treatment with the Rooney Rule. They are not required to hire minority coaches, only interview them. If they wanted to, the percentage of coaches could remain at 6% today. The fact that it is at 22% shows that once they are given an opportunity to at least get a foot in the door black and other minority coaches are just as qualified and have just as much a chance at success as white coaches do.

Ideally, a hiring system intended to fight racism would be indifferent to physical prejudices. Perhaps the identities and physical appearances of the candidates might be masked somehow. The Air Force has ceased using promotion photos to avoid unfair advancement of more attractive persons; modern technology offers some possibilities for other appearance-blind promotion systems.

Are we to care whether someone has unattached earlobes or attached earlobes merely because some persons think that the kind of earlobes defines the kind of person? All concepts of race are no less ridiculous.
No one is arguing that judging people solely on their race is a logical decision. They're arguing that unfortunately there are still a lot of people who judge others for such illogical reasons as the color of their skin and until such time that that becomes an insignificant issue in hiring practices safeguards should remain in place to ensure at least something closer to a more even playing field (and it's unfortunately still not even close).

As far as earlobes and shortness and other such comments, it's more than a bit ridiculous to try and compare that to how some people regard even arbitrary factors like race. It really looks silly to continue bringing them up as a comparison.

But well-designed systems can be - and have been - developed to combat physical prejudice without adopting it. The Air Force no longer uses photographs when considering promotions, some employers mask names from applicant files (because certain names are associated with certain racial identities), the Department of Homeland Security hires personnel through an online hiring process that is indifferent to concepts of race - there are many options that can go far toward inhibiting the effects of physical prejudice.

That doesn't work in a high-profile situation like being an NFL coach because by the nature of the job you are trading on your prior record, experience, and to a lesser degree name recognition; and your prior records/experience are well-documented and easy to link to a specific person whether they are at the college or professional level.
 
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All MUST KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!




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Yes, that's the point of regulations like that. It's not even affirmative action technically.

Its wrong.

No, it is not wrong. What is wrong is creating an old boys network of mostly aging white men with "names" who create a "coaching carrousel" that not only shuts out qualified blacks, but qualified whites as well.

The Rooney Rule is awkward to implement in a situation like the Cowboys'. During the season, Jerry Jones had been considering other coaching options through back-channels. In the end, he was satisfied with keeping Garrett. Maybe the rule should be modified that in cases like this, as long as a team can prove that as it explored possibilities to line up candidates, it made a sincere effort to explore qualifed minority possibilities, then that would be adequate.

I mean in this case, technically, I don't think Garrett formally interviewed for the job, himself. Did he?

I wasn't talking about the Rooney Rule. I was talking about AA in genera.
 
Yea! Smart people! FUN!

Racism is racism and it's never okay.
That's a absolute view. Nothing is without nuance.

Absolutism isn't necessarily incorrect. A tautology is absolute - A is A.

Perhaps not always "incorrect", but to say "a pickle is a pickle" doesn't get us further down the pickle path. I like what fowler said about tautology, "Just saying the same thing twice".

I suppose "a racist is a racist" carries more meaning than the pickle people, possibly indicating the intent "black vs white, white vs black, green vs orange...whatever, a racist is a racist."

Of course, we really haven't said anything more, since we all know that a racist is a racist, it's just that most people think of racisim as the "Stronger" against the "Weaker".


The question, then is whether racism is never okay, or whether it is sometimes okay - whether absolutism is correct in this particular case. I think that it is.

I bet we could come up with an example of racism working out better for everyone. I haven't yet, but I bet we could :)

Race is nonexistent - a fabrication of persons who would not or could not see themselves in other persons, and other persons in themselves. Any action which furthers this fiction is in itself wrong.

I'm guessing it's a social meme, in a way. Think about the tens of thousands of years man spent in small herds of like 30-200 people. Scores of little groups of people. Many were peacful and would trade goods and wifeswap and whatnot, but a few the land pirates of their day. You had to defend against these.

So, different people could either mean an orgy... or death. It's SAFER to hate first then sort things out. Then Lucy could get her Piltdown pickle tickle.

Racism could keep you alive.

Racist policies can be effective in fighting acts of racism, but they neither address the fundamental problem - the malassumed concept of race - and are ham-fisted, clumsy responses that produce in debris the same evil they seek to combat.

I'll buy that.

Put simply, racism is an easy response to racism. And, like most easy responses to difficult problems, it is wrong. Mechanisms to combat racism that ignore the construct of race are very difficult to develop, and more difficult to successfully deploy. But they are the only solutions which are just. Racist answers to racism are merely a lesser evil masquerading as a greater good.

"lesser evil masquerading as a greater good".... just wanted to point out I think that's good writing :)
(Interesting. I defend absolutism with nuance, you nuance with absolutism. Perhaps Mr. Bohr was right about profound truths.)


Maybe we need to come up with nuance/absolute grand unification theory :)
 
I already addressed that in this post.

Well, ok, of course if you think it's perfectly ok to deny black people high-profile jobs such as NFL head coach than it's understandable why you'd oppose this rule.

Maybe they were denied because they WEREN'T FUCKING QUALIFIED??????

That might be the case if blacks were being given coaching jobs just for the sake of promoting black people regardless of qualifications, but they're not. There's no hiring requirement. They're simply being given the opportunity to at least have their qualifications considered with a mandatory interview instead of being dismissed solely based on skin color without even being spoken to. The fact that the number of black coaches has risen from 6% to 22% once you at least give them the chance to get a foot in the door before being rejected speaks to their qualifications and to the effectiveness of the policy.
 
Well, it doesn't really favor anyone. It just tries to ensure that qualified minorities get a chance. A foot in the door, that's all. They have to take it from there.
It's an awkward and uncomfortable rule to be sure, but decades of de facto discrimination in hiring by many was awkward and uncomfortable, too.

So at what point do we agree that the past is the past and move on?

Even with affirmative action there's still a lot of institutional racism out there, and yet we continue to get the same litany of people whining about how unfair it is to the poor, put-upon white man.

Examples please. Where is the institutional racism that you describe? Last time I checked, the NFL consists of mostly black players yet I don't see any whites whining about that.

I wasn't born into money but I fully recognize that I enjoy "white privilege." I don't have any problem with measures like this. The Rooney Rule doesn't sound like it goes far enough, but at least it's something.

How do you enjoy white privilege? Do you feel you were given a job that someone else was more qualified for?
 
Well, it doesn't really favor anyone. It just tries to ensure that qualified minorities get a chance. A foot in the door, that's all. They have to take it from there.
It's an awkward and uncomfortable rule to be sure, but decades of de facto discrimination in hiring by many was awkward and uncomfortable, too.

So at what point do we agree that the past is the past and move on?

Even with affirmative action there's still a lot of institutional racism out there, and yet we continue to get the same litany of people whining about how unfair it is to the poor, put-upon white man.

Examples please. Where is the institutional racism that you describe? Last time I checked, the NFL consists of mostly black players yet I don't see any whites whining about that.

I wasn't born into money but I fully recognize that I enjoy "white privilege." I don't have any problem with measures like this. The Rooney Rule doesn't sound like it goes far enough, but at least it's something.

How do you enjoy white privilege? Do you feel you were given a job that someone else was more qualified for?

If I remember to get around to it, I'll write about "white privilege" tomorrow, when I'm more cogent. It probably bears more elaboration.
 
Why, because black people don't know how to play fucking football? Yeah right...

Takes a lot more than knowing the game to be a good coach. And I was talking about other jobs as well. How many white qualified firemen in Boston in the 70s and 80s were passed over due to quotas?

But that doesn't matter to you because of the perception that the playing field was leveled. Right?
 
I wasn't born into money but I fully recognize that I enjoy "white privilege." I don't have any problem with measures like this. The Rooney Rule doesn't sound like it goes far enough, but at least it's something.

How do you enjoy white privilege? Do you feel you were given a job that someone else was more qualified for?

Okay, here's my little bit about "white privilege."

One of the perks of enjoying white privilege is that most people don't even realize that's what is happening. They can take for granted all the benefits being in the majority confers. But if you stop and think about it and do a little research you realize that the way minorities view the world is very different, shaped by very different experiences.

I enjoy white privilege every time I walk down to the store and don't get hassled by a group of guys who bump into me and say, "Watch where you're walkin', boy." I enjoy white privilege every time I drive through my neighborhood and don't have to worry that the police will pull me over for no other reason than having the wrong skin color. I enjoy white privilege every time an employer neglects to roundfile my resume since it doesn't have a "black- or ethnic-sounding" name on it. I enjoy white privilege when I go shopping for a house and am sure I'll be shown the kinds of houses I want to see, rather than being steered toward ones that will keep me "with my own kind." I enjoy white privilege every time I get a reasonable interest rate on a loan and am not held to a higher standard just because I'm in a "high risk" minority group.

I could take all these things for granted, but I try not to. And before you go off and assume I made up the above out of whole cloth, do some of your own research. I've seen just about all the above situations happen firsthand, and have read about similar problems elsewhere. Minorities in this country are still treated as second-class citizens, often in subtle ways that aren't really apparent to the rest of us.

Racism isn't one of those things that lives out in the open like it used to, and that makes it even more insidious. It is quietly exercised in hiring offices, in the minds of police officers and mortgage brokers. It happens every time you subconsciously give a wider berth to those who don't look like you as you walk down the street.

Just because you don't recognize the many subtle kinds of discrimination that go on every day doesn't mean it's not happening. That you don't face the same discrimination is itself a privilege--you have something by birthright that others have difficulty achieving even with the help of the law: the right to be treated fairly and with dignity, not silently judged on the basis of factors that don't affect your competence or worthiness.
 
Well, it doesn't really favor anyone. It just tries to ensure that qualified minorities get a chance. A foot in the door, that's all. They have to take it from there.
It's an awkward and uncomfortable rule to be sure, but decades of de facto discrimination in hiring by many was awkward and uncomfortable, too.

So at what point do we agree that the past is the past and move on?

When the past is the past.

I'm only going to say this once (in this post, people)....

(not shouthing, don't give me crap internet rules that you made up, just for emphasis...)

WE ARE STILL LIVING IN RECONSTRUCTION.
 
Takes a lot more than knowing the game to be a good coach. And I was talking about other jobs as well. How many white qualified firemen in Boston in the 70s and 80s were passed over due to quotas?

But that doesn't matter to you because of the perception that the playing field was leveled. Right?

So what you're saying is, that between 1921 and 1989 there was not a single non-white man (or woman I guess) in the USA to be found qualified to coach a NFL team, but at the same time you're crying about a couple white firemen who surely were way more qualified than any black fireman could ever be?
 
I wasn't born into money but I fully recognize that I enjoy "white privilege." I don't have any problem with measures like this. The Rooney Rule doesn't sound like it goes far enough, but at least it's something.

How do you enjoy white privilege? Do you feel you were given a job that someone else was more qualified for?

Okay, here's my little bit about "white privilege."

One of the perks of enjoying white privilege is that most people don't even realize that's what is happening. They can take for granted all the benefits being in the majority confers. But if you stop and think about it and do a little research you realize that the way minorities view the world is very different, shaped by very different experiences.

I enjoy white privilege every time I walk down to the store and don't get hassled by a group of guys who bump into me and say, "Watch where you're walkin', boy."

That is a condition based on where you live. Go to the ghetto, bump into a group of guys and watch the phrase turn into "Watch where you're walkin WHITE boy." What do you think happens in South Boston when an italian bumps into an irish man? That situation runs across all races. Every race has at least one historical grievance against another race. You're not going to change that by giving preferences in hiring.

I enjoy white privilege every time I drive through my neighborhood and don't have to worry that the police will pull me over for no other reason than having the wrong skin color.

That's called racial profiling and it tends to happen when police are looking for a suspect in a crime infested area. Do you expect police to ignore a wanted person's race when trying to stop them from committing another crime?

I enjoy white privilege every time an employer neglects to roundfile my resume since it doesn't have a "black- or ethnic-sounding" name on it.
Please. Roundfile happens to most people applying for a job regardless of race. Employers are looking for certain qualifications and if you don't have them you get your application thrown in the junk pile. You shouldn't be unqualified and have your application considered just because of your skin color.

I enjoy white privilege when I go shopping for a house and am sure I'll be shown the kinds of houses I want to see, rather than being steered toward ones that will keep me "with my own kind."

You're being shown houses based on your income. If your income or credit rating isn't good you shouldn't expect to be shown houses in higher class neighborhoods. We just had a housing market collapse in part because lower income people thought that they were entitled to a higher standard of living. We shouldn't encourage that type of behavior.

I enjoy white privilege every time I get a reasonable interest rate on a loan and am not held to a higher standard just because I'm in a "high risk" minority group.

Again, all based on current income and credit history, not race. Based on what you've provided, you interpret every bit of good fortune on a preconcieved notion that nothing is earned through hard work and good deeds but by race. There are many unemployed white people in the united states that would disagree with your assessment.

No one is denying that racism is still alive in this country. But the problem I have is that racism is only seen through the prism of white against black and that whites have it easy.If you want to talk about personal experiences, I've had my own run in with blatant racism by minorities because either I was white or a friend of mine was asian. I've seen a black customer put down an asian restaurant manager because she wouldn't give the customer a discount on her food. Watch any video of the president of the new black panther party or the thugs in philadelphia who were intimidating white voters at the polls. Or maybe you should check our own president who said that people in a certain part of pennsylvania cling to guns and religion.

Getting back to the OP, the rule states that a minority has to be interviewed. Since minority can include many ethnicities besides black, does the rule REALLY make a difference for african americans when an owner interviews an asian?
 
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