Which version of TOS is canon??

[yotsuya]

It's rude to shout, you know. And Discovery seasons 1-2 were set nearly a decade before TOS, so you can justify the change in the same way, as a refit in the intervening years. I find it bizarre that people get so upset about it.

I was making a point, not shouting. But the problem lies with The Cage. Discovery should have been set before it which would solve most, but not all the problems.

No, I think the series themselves are different, and it's an invalid and incompetent argument to claim that just because Star Wars does things a certain way, that somehow constitutes a force of law that compels unrelated franchises to do things the same way.

Ah, but I have been part of both for over 40 years and they are not that much different. Both have people who pour over technical manuals and the models and film stills for details others might have missed. Right here on this site are many Trekkies who argue about how to fit the TOS sets in the TOS exterior. We have full CG buildups of the TOS Enterprise, both the FJ version and more screen accurate versions. Where DS9 and Enterprise respected that, Discovery throws that level of geeky detail in the trash without a second thought.

You really shouldn't. They don't have the same goals or approach in any meaningful way.

When it comes to the philosophy and story you are right. When it comes to the sets, props, technology, ships, etc. you are very wrong, they have been very identical for 40 years. If anything Star Trek has been more tied to the TOS style than Star Wars has to the ANH style.

You've just dismissed and insulted the work of every theatrical designer who stages a new production of Hamlet or Our Town or any other play. It's culturally illiterate to believe it's somehow wrong to redo an existing concept in a new way.

No, I have dismissed or insulted all that work. That is a different case entirely. No two Hamlet's need to be consistent with each other. Each one is a unique setting using the same (or in the case of some films mostly the same) script. A modern continuing series is quite different. The expectation is that things remain the same. Change should not come without reason. And the reason should be in the story or at least be very consistent.

Screaming in people's faces does not make you right.

Again, not shouting. Trying to make a point. Shouting would be paragraphs like that. It did the trick, you did read and pay attention to those points. So job done.

 

[yotsuya]

Mileage will vary. Because I see no harm done. Star Trek being treated like Star Wars is a fool's errand. TOS still exists, is still a part of the greater continuity. Changed visuals are not invalidating that.

As far as I'm concerned there is room for everything. But when something fails to conform to continuity as badly as Discovery, it becomes a reboot. Or set in a parallel universe. As far as I'm concerned none of the events in Discovery happened in the ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/Voy universe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

As far as I'm concerned there is room for everything. But when something fails to conform to continuity as badly as Discovery,

They just updated the look for modern viewers. For me continuity is about the stories and the characters, not the sets or SFX. Not seeing anything in DISCO that eliminates TOS's stories or alters it's characters.

 

[fireproof78]

As far as I'm concerned there is room for everything. But when something fails to conform to continuity as badly as Discovery, it becomes a reboot. Or set in a parallel universe. As far as I'm concerned none of the events in Discovery happened in the ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/Voy universe.

They just updated the look for modern viewers. For me continuity is about the stories and the characters, not the sets or SFX. Not seeing anything in DISCO that eliminates TOS's stories or alters it's characters.

Exactly what Nerys Myk stated. Nothing is a reboot in terms of Discovery. The visuals are updated. That's it.

How much weight one gives to visuals will depend on the viewer.

 

[yotsuya]

Exactly what Nerys Myk stated. Nothing is a reboot in terms of Discovery. The visuals are updated. That's it.

How much weight one gives to visuals will depend on the viewer.

I give a lot of weight the visual, but just all the story points they goofed on was enough. Discovery doesn't fit with TOS. I couldn't even keep track of all the goofs. I gave up after the first episode had so many. And they kept going. The only nice thing is that Discovery made 289 meters the canon length of the Enterprise. Too bad they build the model to be something like 350 meters. That inattention to continuity goes deeper than not adhering to TOS and ENT continuity. They couldn't even adhere to their own continuity.

 

[yotsuya]

They just updated the look for modern viewers. For me continuity is about the stories and the characters, not the sets or SFX. Not seeing anything in DISCO that eliminates TOS's stories or alters it's characters.

Then you missed a bunch. Discovery negates about half of TOS stories.

 

[fireproof78]

I give a lot of weight the visual, but just all the story points they goofed on was enough. Discovery doesn't fit with TOS. I couldn't even keep track of all the goofs. I gave up after the first episode had so many. And they kept going. The only nice thing is that Discovery made 289 meters the canon length of the Enterprise. Too bad they build the model to be something like 350 meters. That inattention to continuity goes deeper than not adhering to TOS and ENT continuity. They couldn't even adhere to their own continuity.

I must have missed it all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I give a lot of weight the visual, but just all the story points they goofed on.

Name some

Discovery doesn't fit with TOS. I couldn't even keep track of all the goofs. I gave up after the first episode had so many. And they kept going.

Name some.

The only nice thing is that Discovery made 289 meters the canon length of the Enterprise. Too bad they build the model to be something like 350 meters. That inattention to continuity goes deeper than not adhering to TOS and ENT continuity.

Wut?

Then you missed a bunch. Discovery negates about half of TOS stories.

Name some. An episode. A scene. A piece of dialog.

 

[yotsuya]

Name some

Name some.

Wut?

Name some. An episode. A scene. A piece of dialog.

Spock - there has never been a mutiny on a Starship

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spock - there has never been a mutiny on a Starship

Contradicted by Spock himself, who took over the ship twice.
Oh yeah and Garth's crew, IIRC.

 

[yotsuya]

Contradicted by Spock himself, who took over the ship twice.
Oh yeah and Garth's crew, IIRC.

Relieving a commander from duty for medical reasons is not Mutiny. And neither Garth's crew nor Spock were ever tried for mutiny.

And then there are the little things that are impossible to reconcile. Tribbles and Gorn on Discovery and yet they were a surprise to the Enterprise crew years later. Our nice fully fleshed out Klingon culture rewritten completely. They kept the language but completely changed how they treat the deceased among other things. Mudd. TOS Mudd was a lovable rogue while in Discovery he is a murderous psychopath.

Not to mention the internal continuity issues Discovery has between seasons 1 and 2.

https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/discovery_continuity.htm

 

[Maurice]

Relieving a commander from duty for medical reasons is not Mutiny. And neither Garth's crew nor Spock were ever tried for mutiny.

Stealing the ship and violating the one order that carries the death penalty is not mutinous?

 

[F. King Daniel]

They kept the language but completely changed how they treat the deceased among other things

So Klingons should be a monoculture?

They referenced the Black Fleet, which pre-dates TNG and comes from the J. M. Ford novel The Final Reflection.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Relieving a commander from duty for medical reasons is not Mutiny. And neither Garth's crew nor Spock were ever tried for mutiny.

Kidnapping his ex CO, forging orders and using them to commandeer the ship seems pretty mutinous. All of which he was put on trial for

SPOCK: This is the First Officer speaking. Security, send an armed team to the Bridge. Transporter Room, stand by to beam Captain Kirk aboard. Effective until then, Lieutenant Hansen is in operational command.
HANSEN: Sir?
SPOCK: First Officer out. Doctor, as senior officer present, I present myself to you for arrest.
MCCOY: You what?
SPOCK: The charge is mutiny, Doctor. I never received orders to take command.

KIRK: Captain's log, stardate 3417.7. Except for myself, all crew personnel have transported to the surface of the planet. Mutinied. Lieutenant Uhura has effectively sabotaged the communications station. I can only contact the surface of the planet. The ship can be maintained in orbit for several months, but even with automatic controls, I cannot pilot her alone. In effect, I am marooned here. I'm beginning to realise just how big this ship really is, how quiet. I don't know how to get my crew back, how to counteract the effect of the spores. I don't know what I can offer against paradise.

GARTH: My crew mutinied. The first use I will make of the Enterprise is to hunt them down and punish them for that.
KIRK: The crew of the Enterprise will also mutiny.

nd then there are the little things that are impossible to reconcile. Tribbles and Gorn on Discovery and yet they were a surprise to the Enterprise crew years later.

Lorca had a tribble and a Gorn skeleton. No idea if he shared anyrthing about them with Starfleet. Nothing in TTWT indicates that Tribbles were totally unknown. Jones, presumably a Federation citizen has probably been hawking them for a while.

Our nice fully fleshed out Klingon culture rewritten completely. They kept the language but completely changed how they treat the deceased among other things.

The ship was an old one with caskets dating back a thousand years. The bodies were used as symbolic armor. Seems a Klingon thing to do.

TOS Mudd was a lovable rogue while in Discovery he is a murderous psychopath.

Mudd is a lovable rogue in I, Mudd. In Mudd's Women he's a lot more cutthroat.

MUDD: I'm told they have only three days of orbit left before they start spiraling in. I do hate to see you suffering such a situation, Captain, but truth is truth, and the sad fact is you will deal. Sooner or later, you'll have to.

 

[Noname Given]

Is it at all possible to have some middle ground between slavishly replicating the dated 1960s aesthetic and "changing it wholesale"? TMP, TNG, DS9 and VOY were supposed to be a step beyond TOS. ENT and DSC, however are supposed to precede TOS.

I think the 1701 Discovery era Bridge set was a wonderful compromise work in that vein. YMMV.

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[yotsuya]

Kidnapping his ex CO, forging orders and using them to commandeer the ship seems pretty mutinous. All of which he was put on trial for

None of which he was put on trial for. Commodore Mendez was an illusion. Also, he did not sway, or even try to sway any of the crew to his side. He acted alone and without violence.

 

[yotsuya]

Is it at all possible to have some middle ground between slavishly replicating the dated 1960s aesthetic and "changing it wholesale"? TMP, TNG, DS9 and VOY were supposed to be a step beyond TOS. ENT and DSC, however are supposed to precede TOS.

This is why it would have been good to give TOS some distance and design what came right before. Most of my issue with Discovery is that it tried to get too close to TOS while pretty much ignoring any asthetic from it. And as the TOS and TMP control panels and a lot of the tech are at similar levels (the many illuminated buttons and the fairly static view screen), what they did with Discovery is kind of out of place. Sure it says SF to a modern audience, but so could something more in line with the NX-01 and NCC-1701(TOS and Refit). We've never glimpsed any vessel that was pre Constitution Class before, but the design should have followed in line, not jumped over to the Abrams Movie aesthetic. Because that is what they did. All of Star Trek takes place in 4 years for Enterprise, 50 years for TOS/Movies, and 15 years for TNG/DS9/Voyager That leaves large holes to fill and they decided that between The Cage and TOS was a good place. 10 years earlier would have given them so much more room to play with.

 

[Nerys Myk]

None of which he was put on trial for. Commodore Mendez was an illusion. Also, he did not sway, or even try to sway any of the crew to his side. He acted alone and without violence.

He stilled mutinied. He admits as much. Again I quote

The charge is mutiny, Doctor. I never received orders to take command.

And yes, he was put on trial. That Mendez was an illusion doesn't change that.

Basically, the charges were dropped. Just like they were dropped when Spock tried commandeering the ship in Amok Time. Nice to have friends in high places willing to sweep things under the rug.

 

[yotsuya]

So Klingons should be a monoculture?

They referenced the Black Fleet, which pre-dates TNG and comes from the J. M. Ford novel The Final Reflection.

That is how they were portrayed for the last 50 years. And one nice reference to that classic novel does not negate all the things they goofed on.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That is how they were portrayed for the last 50 years. And one nice reference to that classic novel does not negate all the things they goofed on.

Not a goof. An expansion. That's how serial fiction works.