Which productions just "stick the landing" with you?
- Thread starter Phantom
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I think it was one of "Starship Farragut's" episode that got the closet to me as far as feeling like Star Trek.
The rest are fun fan imaginings, but they don't carry the same weight (probably not the best term but I'll go with it) with me as a regular episode. If it is fun and entertaining, then I'll enjoy it as a fun "what if" scenario of the world of Star Trek, but either the acting or the effects just throw me out for brief moments.
I try not to let that ruin the experience, but it still happens.
The rest are fun fan imaginings, but they don't carry the same weight (probably not the best term but I'll go with it) with me as a regular episode. If it is fun and entertaining, then I'll enjoy it as a fun "what if" scenario of the world of Star Trek, but either the acting or the effects just throw me out for brief moments.
I try not to let that ruin the experience, but it still happens.
There've been outings where I felt like I was watching a film first and a fan-film second. Continues is definitely this for me. Its replication of the original show's aesthetic is almost eerie and there've been some ace moments along the way so far (especially Lou Ferrigno as an Orion -- hilarious wink and a nod to his old television role).
Axanar has thus far done much the same with a nineties kind of SF aesthetic and I've enjoyed the tastes we've had. Be interesting to see what comes as they get further along.
Phase 2/New Voyages have gotten stronger as they went along. "Enemy: Starfleet" and "Mind-Sifter" are both good, easily watchable outings -- Cawley is fun to watch with stronger material underpinning him, and Brian Goss is almost as convincing a Kirk as Mignogna.
I also liked The Tressaurian Intersection. The production had its flaws and its challenges but it still managed to be entertaining, and I particularly liked that it was far less prone to "continuity porn" than most fan productions.
You have a history of being drive-by snarky with people Karzak, so don't play the "offended victim".
But I'll accept that in this case you were simply making a statement.
Care to elaborate on it? There are some excellent, high-quality works out there that at the very least approach being as good as the "official" material. Would you have blinked if TOS had done the sequel to "Who Mourns for Adonias" that Continues did?
So your response is to attack me? What bearing does that have on this thread? Or my comment, which was entirely within the bounds of being not only a reasonable answer to your question but also within the rules of conduct in this forum? You are the one bringing any animosity into this, not I.
Further, my response was not meant to convey "offended victim." It was to reiterate that my answer was perfectly acceptable here and that it was not your place to cashier me away, as echoed by the moderator.
You asked if any of the fan films I've seen have produced anything that I considered to be as good as "Real" Star Trek.
My answer was "No. They're fan films."
I don't know how much more clear I could have been.
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This. I have thoroughly enjoyed STC, but for me the big winner is Starship Exeter. It was a different crew, on a different ship, but it had the same feel as TOS. The production values were solid, the acting was generally good, and it really is a production I'd love to see as an official part of the Trek family.
* STC, as mentioned before. Good quality acting from the main cast, great production values, and decent scripts make it a favorite.
* Aurora. This series is just so much fun. It's life outside of Starfleet, which is nice for a change. The voice work is solid, the stories are fun, and the animation is good. I'd like to see more episodes.
Now, keep in mind that when I list these, it's not in a "this is real Star Trek!" kind of way, but in a "this is a lot of fun, and has Star Trek in the title!" because the only "real" Star Trek is the official stuff. These are all fan films which can touch on Trek, but do not replace or add to the pantheon.
I also say that because one can be a Star Trek fan and love these films, and one can be a Star Trek fan and hate these films. There's no "realness" to it.
This. They're fun in their own right, but they simply don't do it for me the way the professional productions do.
So being unofficial automatically makes them lesser in your opinion? That is, the state of being "fan produced" is in and of itself sufficient to lessen your perception of it's quality.
Or are you open to one rising to the the standard of equivalency with an "official" production and just not found one that does so?
I listen to a lot of audio books, maybe that makes it easier to accept one voice for all characters.
Let me ask it this way, if you had seen it as a script or novelization, would you have been as equally off-put by the material?
I found his pacing, character drawing, etc to have nailed the TNG style down almost perfectly. Even where he makes use of fannish concepts like "line lifting", he does it so deftly and appropriately that it doesn't feel out of place.
Visually, he took exquisite care to precisely re-create camera angles, shot construction, etc, even the use of "clips" (specific scenes and elements) just as the Paramount production did and would have done.
I can't speak about what may or may not have happened in another forum. I know some people trolled him rather viciously over his choice not to re-cast and they still do from time to time on his You Tube pages.
Interesting choice. I can see the point.
Hmmmm...I may have to disagree here. The lead character comes dangerously close to Mary Sue for my taste.
Then there's the squick factor of her being considered a "cannibal".
Why not, if their quality is sufficient? I understand the legal and economic reasons for the rights holder enforcing a "canon" based on who produces it, but that's a legal and economic argument, not a quality argument.
Am I James Dixon, arguing that "everything must count"? No. But I'm not going to toss a good product based on it's unofficial status either.
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Star Trek Continues, episode 2 Lolani.... That's the only episode of any fan film, that convinces me I am watching Trek...
This. They're fun in their own right, but they simply don't do it for me the way the professional productions do.
So being unofficial automatically makes them lesser in your opinion? That is, the state of being "fan produced" is in and of itself sufficient to lessen your perception of it's quality.
Or are you open to one rising to the the standard of equivalency with an "official" production and just not found one that does so?
I listen to a lot of audio books, maybe that makes it easier to accept one voice for all characters.
Let me ask it this way, if you had seen it as a script or novelization, would you have been as equally off-put by the material?
I found his pacing, character drawing, etc to have nailed the TNG style down almost perfectly. Even where he makes use of fannish concepts like "line lifting", he does it so deftly and appropriately that it doesn't feel out of place.
Visually, he took exquisite care to precisely re-create camera angles, shot construction, etc, even the use of "clips" (specific scenes and elements) just as the Paramount production did and would have done.
I can't speak about what may or may not have happened in another forum. I know some people trolled him rather viciously over his choice not to re-cast and they still do from time to time on his You Tube pages.
Interesting choice. I can see the point.
Hmmmm...I may have to disagree here. The lead character comes dangerously close to Mary Sue for my taste.
Then there's the squick factor of her being considered a "cannibal".
Why not, if their quality is sufficient? I understand the legal and economic reasons for the rights holder enforcing a "canon" based on who produces it, but that's a legal and economic argument, not a quality argument.
Am I James Dixon, arguing that "everything must count"? No. But I'm not going to toss a good product based on it's unofficial status either.
None of them (thus far) have ever had the right "fit" in terms of feeling like in the same universe. Some get close, really close, but they often feel like they are trying too hard to be just like Star Trek without the same level quality.
I'm not against fan films, but they just never feel "official" to me. The harder they try, the more off they feel to me.
No, it's not logical. Just an instinct that I have about them.
If I was asked to pick only one production as opposed to a series I'd go with "Lolani" as well. It was bang on as a ClassicTrek episode.
I'm enjoying STC as a whole, but (so far) "Lolani" is the one segment wher I think they really fulfilled the asserted intent of picking up where TOS left off.
Prelude to Axanar and the Axanar Vulcan trailer are soooooo good I want to cry. They are by far the absolute best fan productions I've ever seen.
I love Star Trek Continues. I appreciate Phase II. Between the two of these we have about 12 new TOS episodes. I hope they never contradict each other or do the same scripts. I liked Phase II's "The Child" better than TNG's version.
I love love love Star Trek Aurora. I'm waiting for all of the new episode to finish before I watch it.
I really enjoyed Exeter and the one Farragut episode I've watched. I'm going to catch up on the rest of Farragut I think.
I love Star Trek Continues. I appreciate Phase II. Between the two of these we have about 12 new TOS episodes. I hope they never contradict each other or do the same scripts. I liked Phase II's "The Child" better than TNG's version.
I love love love Star Trek Aurora. I'm waiting for all of the new episode to finish before I watch it.
I really enjoyed Exeter and the one Farragut episode I've watched. I'm going to catch up on the rest of Farragut I think.
They simply don't have the quality of people in front of and behind the camera, nor the resources that the professional productions do.
I admire most for what they do, because it seems a labor of love. But I don't confuse college and Canadian football for the NFL, even though I enjoy both the NFL just exists on a different level.
My major crit of "Lolani" is that they use the "strictly hands off" version of the PD regarding the issue of slavery within Federation space.
60s Kirk would have fought harder to keep Lolani on the Enterprise based on the fact that she had been bought by Federation citizens, transported out of Orion jurisdiction, and was currently within that of the Federation, rendering Orion sovereignty moot in her case.
That's where we wind up fighting, Bill, because that doesn't mean that the result can't be every bit as good despite those lacks.
First, many of these productions are using pro actors in the first place in key roles (Axanar, guest casting for Continues and P2). Which in no way means they are inherently better actors. A SAG card is just a piece of cardboard/plastic/whatever they make it out of.
Likewise behind the scenes being "pro" doesn't mean being "better" by default. I go back to Axanar, which has broadcast quality FX on an indie/fanfilm budget. Continues comes in a close 2nd within the bounds of their "make it like the 60s" mandate.
The only criteria that should be used to evaluate the quality is the final, on-screen product, not who produces it or how it was produced. For God's sake TNG once made a utility craft out of a broken robot foot and two Bic shavers and no one knew until they talked about it.
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Shuttle_drone
And if one of those teams were to tie or beat an NFL team, then what? They still lose because they aren't "pros"?
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I'd put STC in "first place" right now based simply on their having delivered a complete product at this point. Too soon to be comparing Axanar on that basis, since all it has at this point is a sliver of footage and an (of course impressive) proof of concept video. But I'd agree that STC delivers something simply watchable as television in a way nobody would be trying to question, diminish or dismiss if it weren't a fan production. It's admittedly weird to see the "diminish/dismiss" instinct so strong, to the point almost of ridiculousness, on a Fan Production forum on a Trek board.
No Trek fanfilm ever "sticks the landing" with me. The only exception might be VFX demos by some very talented CG (and practical modeling) artists out there on YouTube.
There are times where I might say: "Hmm....ok...this had the feel of a good TOS episode." (Even if it does lack in the VFX or acting departement). It doesn't mean I gush and say: "OMG, OMG! This was Star Trek!!! " (or worse "OMG! This was true or real Star Trek!" --fanboy gush gush gush)
What takes me out of some enjoyment (not overall) of some fanfilms is lousy dialogue, and fan actors who sound more like they're just reading their lines off of a cue card.
And then, there are those fan productions that somehow managed to get actual actors from Trek and other sci-fi shows. That's when it suddenly has the capacity to really collapse under its own ambition. I couldn't even watch all of Renegades, although I will attempt to do so again, soon. I don't think I made it past the first space battle. (Which itself looked decent, but the uniforms for the SF crew in the live action shots were just....hinkey.) Some of the dialogue was also...hinkey.)
Contrast this with the lead up material to Axanar...now that has far more impressive production values. And yes, I like Tony Todd's line about fearing the death of the Federation more than fearing the Klingon Empire. That was a nice touch. However, wisdom prevails that the final product will be what determines its quality in the eyes of its viewers.
When I set out to do my own tribute films (I call my productions by that because I am no longer a fan of anything...the only exception is my studio name "FanFX Films" and even that will be getting a change up soon to reflect my status as a non-fan of anything), I embrace the fact that I have limitations, (still a very amateur CG model maker/animator; don't have a voice cast present, so I have to use only my voice; I accept that my projects won't look as polished as others with better resources, etc.) and presume immediately that my projects are not going to "stick the landing" with anyone.
-If my own projects are well received, and somehow by strange chance actually do "stick the landing", then great. Glad I did something right in someone's eyes.
-If my own projects are well received just for simply being enjoyable, then great. Glad I did something enjoyable in someone's eyes.
-If my own projects don't go over, then great. They're simply labors of love, and everyone's vision of love is different. You can't please 100 percent of the people 100 percent of the time....and sometimes, you might just lose 100 percent of the people at the same time!
So, as a budding tribute film maker, I say: Such is the nature of fan/tribute films. I think, if you try to hard to recapture the spirit or feel of something that came before, your efforts can collapse under its own weight of ambition.
Just do what feels right to you. If it resonates with others, great. If not, it still, somehow, resonates right with you, and that's all that matters.
(edited because some stuff I said might have just sounded really impolite)
There are times where I might say: "Hmm....ok...this had the feel of a good TOS episode." (Even if it does lack in the VFX or acting departement). It doesn't mean I gush and say: "OMG, OMG! This was Star Trek!!! " (or worse "OMG! This was true or real Star Trek!" --fanboy gush gush gush)
What takes me out of some enjoyment (not overall) of some fanfilms is lousy dialogue, and fan actors who sound more like they're just reading their lines off of a cue card.
And then, there are those fan productions that somehow managed to get actual actors from Trek and other sci-fi shows. That's when it suddenly has the capacity to really collapse under its own ambition. I couldn't even watch all of Renegades, although I will attempt to do so again, soon. I don't think I made it past the first space battle. (Which itself looked decent, but the uniforms for the SF crew in the live action shots were just....hinkey.) Some of the dialogue was also...hinkey.)
Contrast this with the lead up material to Axanar...now that has far more impressive production values. And yes, I like Tony Todd's line about fearing the death of the Federation more than fearing the Klingon Empire. That was a nice touch. However, wisdom prevails that the final product will be what determines its quality in the eyes of its viewers.
When I set out to do my own tribute films (I call my productions by that because I am no longer a fan of anything...the only exception is my studio name "FanFX Films" and even that will be getting a change up soon to reflect my status as a non-fan of anything), I embrace the fact that I have limitations, (still a very amateur CG model maker/animator; don't have a voice cast present, so I have to use only my voice; I accept that my projects won't look as polished as others with better resources, etc.) and presume immediately that my projects are not going to "stick the landing" with anyone.
-If my own projects are well received, and somehow by strange chance actually do "stick the landing", then great. Glad I did something right in someone's eyes.
-If my own projects are well received just for simply being enjoyable, then great. Glad I did something enjoyable in someone's eyes.
-If my own projects don't go over, then great. They're simply labors of love, and everyone's vision of love is different. You can't please 100 percent of the people 100 percent of the time....and sometimes, you might just lose 100 percent of the people at the same time!
So, as a budding tribute film maker, I say: Such is the nature of fan/tribute films. I think, if you try to hard to recapture the spirit or feel of something that came before, your efforts can collapse under its own weight of ambition.
Just do what feels right to you. If it resonates with others, great. If not, it still, somehow, resonates right with you, and that's all that matters.
(edited because some stuff I said might have just sounded really impolite)
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Well, I can't say I've seen 'em all, but I'm gonna say the effort that has impressed me the most is Axanar. Very well produced, visually stunning, and some great performances. Someone up-thread mentioned it being "controversial" and for the life of me I don't see it would be considered so. I really hope they are able to do the feature-length version they want to do.
There is a difference between weekend warriors and people who commit their entire lives to their craft.
What makes the professionals stick out above fan films is that dedication of years, and in most instances decades.
Want to make a fan film come off badly? Mix real actors with amateurs. Mix people who have dedicated their lives to acting with people who do it for a hobby. You see this in new professional sports leagues where there are a few NFL caliber players mixed with people who should be working in the insurance industry. Renegades was a great example where good actors were let down by the amateur actors and a poor script written by someone who hasn't perfected his craft.
The difference between Vic Mignogna, James Cawley and Chris Pine? The first two are doing imitations of Shatner playing Kirk, Pine actually is informing his performance with a decade-plus of acting experience, working and learning from other professionals (actors, writers, directors). It isn't a knock against Mignogna and Cawley. But there really seems to be very little of them in their performances.
YMMV.
Why do you have to fight? Why can't you simply accept that not everyone feels the same way about fan films that you do, Phantom, and that they may have reasons for those feelings which are as perfectly justified, valid and reasonable as yours are for why you love them so much? Why is that so impossible a concept to grasp?
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