Where's the Rest of Torchwood?

[Mr Light]

So... in "Army of Ghosts" Torchwood has hundreds of personnel and a dozen locations around the UK. I know they get wiped out by the Cybermen and everything... but in the series proper the entire number of their army is... five?

Is Torchwood Three the only remaining TW people in existence? Why aren't they rebuilding more?

If all those people are dead... where is the money coming from? Where does Jack get his political influence? What politician is sponsoring this five man team?

It's even weirder because the police are aware of TW's existence in the TW pilot and in other episodes. Is this from the old days of actually having people or from the 5 man team?

Also, what is the nature of the relationship between TW and UNIT? I know Martha works for UNIT and was on loan to them for those three episodes but I don't recall the details. Who gets jurisdiction with what situation?

Because if UNIT has these armies of soldiers running around England with their big SHIELD Helicarrier in the sky... what is the point of five dudes running around as Torchwood?

 

[OmahaStar]

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey. I gave up trying to figure out how Torchwood and Unit fit in together a LONG time ago.

 

[Sci]

So... in "Army of Ghosts" Torchwood has hundreds of personnel and a dozen locations around the UK.

Nothing in "Army of Ghosts" establishes Torchwood to have a dozen locations around the United Kingdom.

"Everything Changes," "Cyberwoman," "Golden Age," and "Fragments" all fairly well establish that the Torchwood Institute has had five branches that we know of:

* Torchwood One, based out of Canary Wharf. Torchwood One was essentially destroyed and most of its personnel killed or converted by the Cybermen. The Torchwood website establishes that only 27 of its 823 staff survived the battle with the Cybermen, and that in the wake of the Cybermen attack, the Queen herself ordered Torchwood One shut down and disbanded.

* Torchwood Two operated out of Glasgow, Scotland. The file seen on Lois's computer in Children of Earth seems to establish that Torchwood Two disbanded some time prior to the 456 Incident.

* Torchwood Three, based out of the Hub beneath Roald Dahl Plass. Torchwood Three seems to have been disbanded upon the resolution of the 456 Incident and the deaths of most of its personnel.

* Torchwood Four, location unknown. Captain Jack said in "Everything Changes" that Torchwood Four is missing, but we'll find it some day. (Might be the door the series needs to return after Children of Earth, that.) Given that Torchwood One was in England, Two in Scotland, and Three in Wales, I would infer that Torchwood Four was located in Belfast, Northern Ireland (or, before the Irish Republic, in Dublin), but that's pure guesswork on my part.

* Torchwood India, based out of New Delhi. The radio play "Golden Age" establishes that Captain Jack shut Torchwood India down in 1924 because he knew the Raj was coming to a close and convinced the folks back home to bring the alien technology Torchwood India had acquired to Britain.

Torchwood Three seems to have been the only Torchwood branch still active during the 456 Incident (though of course one might choose to disregard barely-legible computer readouts saying that Torchwood Two had disbanded).

Whether or not the Torchwood Institute still exists, de jure or de facto, we do not know.

If all those people are dead... where is the money coming from? Where does Jack get his political influence? What politician is sponsoring this five man team?

DW established that the Torchwood Institute was established by Queen Victoria in 1879 and operated out of a royal charter. Presumably, then, the Torchwood Institute answers to and is kept funded by the Monarch (presumably taking orders from the Prime Minister when the Queen so orders, which she no doubt would in the majority of cases).

A computer screen in CoE said this: In the Torchwood Charter of Dec 31st 1879, "Torchwood is also to administer to the Government thereof in our name, and generally to act in our name and on our behalf, subject to such orders and regulations as Torchwood shall, from time to time, receive from us through one of our Principal Secretaries of state." So apparently Torchwood is supposed to be autonomous but receptive to orders it gets from the Prime Minister.

"The Runaway Bride" also established that Torchwood operated front companies; presumably it derived funds from those as well as from Her Majesty's Treasury.

It's even weirder because the police are aware of TW's existence in the TW pilot and in other episodes. Is this from the old days of actually having people or from the 5 man team?

Presumably the Torchwood Institute's existence is something of a poorly-kept secret, even if its actual mission is well-kept. Sorta like how everyone knew MI6 existed for years before the government finally admitted it.

Also, what is the nature of the relationship between TW and UNIT?

What about it?

The Torchwood Institute is apparently an organization operating on a royal charter. UNIT, on the other hand, is a United Nations military organization that divides its units (no pun intended) amongst UN Member States, with officers from each Member State's militaries serving on detached assignments but still answering to the Member State's own chain of command. In other words, UNIT is more of a coordinating body most of the time than an out-and-out sovereign military force (which is why the UNIT General took orders from the Prime Minister in "The Christmas Invasion"). Presumably the UNIT officers operating the Valiant were the exception to that rule.

Who gets jurisdiction with what situation?

Presumably whoever learns about it first and doesn't call in the other for back-up. I doubt that there's any particular treaty outlining how responsibilities get divvied up.

Because if UNIT has these armies of soldiers running around England with their big SHIELD Helicarrier in the sky... what is the point of five dudes running around as Torchwood?

I dunno. What's the point of the having U.S. Marshals when you have the FBI? Organizations exist and they don't just give up their existence when another organization comes along.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you pause the frames from when the new girl, Lois, is looking up jack and Torchwood on her PC, it says (kinda) that Torchwood works fro the Queen but it is answerable to the government.

So, Lizzy is bankrolling them probably.

 

[captcalhoun]

(which is why the UNIT General took orders from the Prime Minister in "The Christmas Invasion").

that general was a Major...

 

[Guy Gardener]

And besides, UNIT has to be detached to the countries in which they are operating otherwise it's like having a standing foreign army on your bosom, which no one would really tolerate unless they had to.

Heretofore, the UNified Intelligence Taskforce would have a different command structure to the United Nations intelligence. I don't think bombing the Silurians back into the stone age after they surrendered would have sat well with the real world UN if they had to ask themselves if the conduct of this fictional organization should continue unlicensed to be representative of their august body.

 

[Kelthaz]

"It's just a show, I should really just relax"

If you want to make any sense out of Doctor Who you'll be fan wanking for years. It's best to just nod your head and smile.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

...So apparently Torchwood is supposed to be autonomous but receptive to orders it gets from the Prime Minister.

Orders such as 'go to the Himalayas!'

 

[Gotham Central]

If you pause the frames from when the new girl, Lois, is looking up jack and Torchwood on her PC, it says (kinda) that Torchwood works fro the Queen but it is answerable to the government.

So, Lizzy is bankrolling them probably.

For the record ALL of the agencies of the British government, including the government itself, are in fact owned/belong to the monarch. The Prime Minister is legally given permission by the queen to form a government in her name (in practice the monarch has not had any real authority over the government for a long time). Thus Torchwood's relationship to the monarchy is identical to all of the other branches of the British government.

The real question is what exactly makes Torchwood "beyond the United Nations?"

Another question about CoE is under what setup does an American military official walk in and start giving orders to the British government (and issuing orders to the British armed forces on British soil)? This is the second time we've seen an American official simply walk in and take over a situation in the UK (and the British government simply hand over control without any protest).

 

[Mr Light]

Thanks for the answers everyone. So why hasn't Torchwood been reformed since the Battle of Canary Warf? Why is it still just Jack's little team?

Another question about CoE is under what setup does an American military official walk in and start giving orders to the British government (and issuing orders to the British armed forces on British soil)? This is the second time we've seen an American official simply walk in and take over a situation in the UK (and the British government simply hand over control without any protest).

Perhaps a commentary on the relationship between George Bush and Tony Blair?

 

[Stevil2001]

Presumably because without Torchwood's incompetence, there wouldn't have been a Battle of Canary Wharf. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

 

[wamdue]

Presumably because without Torchwood's incompetence, there wouldn't have been a Battle of Canary Wharf. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

yes that really was Torchwoods fault.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

When T1 went down, Ianto ended up in Cardiff looking for continuing employment. Jack turned him down despite the fact that he was an existing member. Even before Canary Wharf, T3 seems to have existed only as a satellite office of Torchwood, monitoring the rift for activity that seems to have been rare prior to the first series (the Doctor noted that the rift had been pretty active since his last visit over a year previous). Since the battle, Jack was operating pretty much autonomously, with his primary goal mostly to be able to stick around until his Doctor Detector went off.

And Torchwood is one of the worst kept secrets in Wales. Even in the third season random people knew who they were and where they were operating from, if only roughly. I highly doubt that Torchwood would have been able to maintain its place as a concealed operation much longer, especially with the reluctance to build back up into a force to be reckoned with. As it stood, even the idiots in the ARC had more clout by the end of Torchwood's second year.

Hopefully we'll see what happens if series four - in my view, Jack should return to and find a renewed Torchwood with dozens hundreds of peoples working from a new base and with stronger ties to the government and UNIT for the added muscle. With Gwen Cooper as his new boss, Jack takes a new team out to fight monsters galore.

Or something.

We know that Torchwood survives as a very public entity in the future, through at least the 42nd century. I would hope that the show takes us towards that future in some form before it goes.

Mark

 

[Cyke101]

So apparently Torchwood is supposed to be autonomous but receptive to orders it gets from the Prime Minister.

Is this a fairly recent change? UNIT seemed surprised that PM Harriet Jones would know of Torchwood. Of course, Saxon lead Torchwood 3 to the Himalayas.

 

[Mr Light]

Too bad they didn't do an episode about Saxon sending them off to the Himalyas for an ambush. That would be cool to see.

 

[Maestro]

Another question about CoE is under what setup does an American military official walk in and start giving orders to the British government (and issuing orders to the British armed forces on British soil)? This is the second time we've seen an American official simply walk in and take over a situation in the UK (and the British government simply hand over control without any protest).

There's a lot that's wrong there. First, I doubt the President of the United States would send a Lieutenant-General in the US Army to represent his Office, without so much as a phone call to the UK PM. Second, he sent a Lieutenant-General to act in his steed with no on screen consultation. We haven't always had bright Presidents, but none would handle this this poorly. An ambassador, the VP, the SecState, all probably would have been sent first. Perhaps one of the Joint Chiefs. But a three star general? No. And then one who was allowed to set his flag above the British PM? If that were to happen, there should have been a phone call from the President.

And the only three star who might have been sent would have been a member of the Administration, like a Deputy Chief of Staff (think Josh Lyman), who has the diplomatic equivelent rank of a three star flag.

 

[Stevil2001]

The Torchwood website has a write-up about the Himalaya trip as written by Owen: http://www.bbc.co.uk/torchwood/sites/arg/includes/flash_episodes/tw_case_ep01_himalayas.swf
According to it, the orders came to them via U.N.I.T.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Thinking back to who season 2 with Fiona's utterances about Torchwood restoring the British Empire.

If they're not going to put the current Royal Family at the head of that Empire, then they were heading somewhere truly disturbing, more so, if one day a decade down the line they just said to King William: "SURPRISE! It's an Empire, be careful with it this time, don't break it and you're welcome. " there would be some confused faces to say the least. Not that George Lucas doesn't think that a benevolent republic wouldn't just accept a multimillion million man army of thought modified slaves without questioning the gifthorse?

Especially as a Birthday present, you usually don't try to buy some bugger a prezzie that they'd have no genuine interest in.

Which is why I reinsist that there are devious and tactile connections between the crown, or someone in line for the crown, (Charles? Harry? Andrew? I always thought there was something devious about Andrew. No one can "seem" to be that boring yet woo to the red taped finish line a crazy *&^% like Sarah Fergison.) and Torchwood, or what was torchwood, that the elements of Torchwood and the mandates and agenda of the original Torchwoods that Jack kicked to the curb have been adopted by another agency...

What's P.R.O.B.E. up to these days?

 

[Sci]

For the record ALL of the agencies of the British government, including the government itself, are in fact owned/belong to the monarch. The Prime Minister is legally given permission by the queen to form a government in her name (in practice the monarch has not had any real authority over the government for a long time).

Unless I'm mistaken, I do believe that the one exception to this is the Parliament itself, of which the Monarch is in fact an entire chamber unto him/herself.

The real question is what exactly makes Torchwood "beyond the United Nations?"

Presumably the fact that they're an agency of the Crown and not of the United Nations. I mean, anything that isn't part of the United Nations is beyond it. The United States Army is beyond the United Nations. Your gramma's weekly bingo meeting is beyond the United Nations. The U.N. is not a world government.

Another question about CoE is under what setup does an American military official walk in and start giving orders to the British government (and issuing orders to the British armed forces on British soil)?

The power of a gun, obviously.

CoE was very clear at the end: General Pierce seized power illegally through the unwillingness of the Prime Minister to stand up for Great Britain's sovereignty. Pierce wasn't issuing orders to the British Army himself -- he was telling the Prime Minister what orders to issue, with the unspoken subtext being that the Prime Minister was too afraid of American power and American money to stand up to him.

And it's not a particularly unrealistic depiction of events. The United States has used intimidation tactics to control smaller governments plenty in real life. It's just that they don't usually use that tactic against other First World governments, since they're usually able and willing to stand up to direct U.S. control.

This is the second time we've seen an American official simply walk in and take over a situation in the UK (and the British government simply hand over control without any protest).

The situation in "The Sound of Drums" was a bit different. Prime Minister Saxon was actually violating a U.N. treaty to which the U.K. was party by trying to handle first contact himself; apparently, that same treaty had provisions that would force any state party to that treaty to force out of office their head of government if that person tried to violate the First Contact treaty. President-elect Winters was then able to get the United Nations (presumably via the Security Council) to appoint him as U.N. representative to the Toclafane.

In CoE, on the other hand, a U.S. General basically seized control by intimidation.

Thanks for the answers everyone. So why hasn't Torchwood been reformed since the Battle of Canary Warf? Why is it still just Jack's little team?

I would presume that Harriet Jones or whoever was in Downing Street at the time of Canary Wharf (assuming the no-confidence vote on Jones didn't happen immediately after "The Christmas Invasion") didn't want to rebuilt Torchwood, believing them a threat to the government and to national security, until Jack made it clear to the government that he was rebuilding the team to be much smaller and much less imperialistic and autonomous -- and, if it was Jones, in the Doctor's honor.

So apparently Torchwood is supposed to be autonomous but receptive to orders it gets from the Prime Minister.

Is this a fairly recent change? UNIT seemed surprised that PM Harriet Jones would know of Torchwood. Of course, Saxon lead Torchwood 3 to the Himalayas.

Given the quote from Queen Victoria seen in Children of Earth, I would be inclined to interpret that as indicating that Torchwood became more and more autonomous, more and more secretive, as the decades wore on -- to the point where it had amassed enough power to try to illegally keep its existence secret from the Prime Minister when Jones assumed office in 2006. (Bribe or extort enough MPs and generals, give a few key people a retcon pill, delete a few records...)

There's a lot that's wrong there. First, I doubt the President of the United States would send a Lieutenant-General in the US Army to represent his Office, without so much as a phone call to the UK PM. Second, he sent a Lieutenant-General to act in his steed with no on screen consultation. We haven't always had bright Presidents, but none would handle this this poorly.

Absolutely nothing -- nothing -- is beyond the stupidity of George W. Bush.

Besides, for all we know, the person who replaced President-elect Winters after Saxon assassinated him might have been Vice President-elect Palin of Alaska.

ETA: Ack. I just remembered that General Pierce referred to the U.S. President as having been male. Oh well, there goes my Palin theory.... Unless it's Todd. End edit.

An ambassador, the VP, the SecState, all probably would have been sent first. Perhaps one of the Joint Chiefs. But a three star general? No. And then one who was allowed to set his flag above the British PM? If that were to happen, there should have been a phone call from the President.

Unless, of course, the President is deliberately disregarding international law and protocol in a naked attempt to bully the British government into submission, possibly with the support of powerful flag officers within the military that are hostile to the government. Not exactly unheard of from U.S. presidents. (Chile, Brazil, Indonesia...)

 

[Guy Gardener]

OH!

Completely this had slipped my mind. Years ago, I do recall watching something to great enjoyment which may have been In the Thick of it, but then the backdrop for these political comedies set in downing street or whitehall are rigid with the set design.

I'm pulling for a New Statesman reunion special sometime soon.